Should children allow themselves to be socially transgendered?

Finished #lgbt #government #society #families #ethics
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Con Instigator Opens first
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Mal
Rating
1388
Debates
468
Win rate
46.15%
Pro Contender Winner
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3
Rating
1726
Debates
7
Win rate
100.00%
Verdict Ultracrepidarian wins · 3 points
Ultracrepidarian Pro
3
Mal Con
0

After 3 votes (0 ties) — 3 points ahead

Please quote exactly. Do not rephrase or reinterpret. Answer all questions directly. Failure to comply with all this is an automatic forfeit.


Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Round 1

1 of 4
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Mal
Con #1

We look at the legal structure. Whether you want to say "rights" , what is allowed by law or "stipulations", what is mandated by law, minors require guardianship.


First off no minor has right to anything to supercede parental/guardianship representation. Not withstanding certain legal declarations which would be irrelevant on top of that.


Outside or away from those declarations, at large , no minor has any right to supercede legally an adult.


So in light of that, it is the adult, the authorities, authoritative representatives that have the right, duty and onus to judge and decide for the welfare of minors .


It's by decision of the guardian and or parent to allow anything of their dependents.


Which may allow said social behaviors.





Hi Mal, thanks for the debate


Socially transgendered - Considered to be of the non-biological sex socially, though not physically changed. Completely reversible and non-permanent.


No legal permission involved

It's true that parents have legal rights over their children, but legal rights don't come into this debate. There is no legal requirement that needs to be fulfilled for a children to be socially transgendered. They don't need legal approval from a parent.


Children must have some autonomy

Exploration during youth is crucial for one to form their identity. If it's not permanent, children must allow themselves to make decisions and explore who they are.


Round 2

2 of 4
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Mal
Con #3

"There is no legal requirement that needs to be fulfilled for a children to be socially transgendered. They don't need legal approval from a parent.


They don't need legal approval from a parent."


Getting it backwards. It's not about a legal requirement. The parents legally have authority to decide and take responsibility in all their children's affairs.....well... because..... their children . Their children have been legally placed in the care of guardians whereas they are legally delegated to by government the responsibility to be representative, to guard and be entrusted with sole rearing.


Children need not to give themselves legal approval, but just approval, just approval from their guardians like anything else their children are involved in because the guardians are the sole authority.


It's really as straightforward as that.


The topic is not saying children don't or shouldn't have autonomy. I understand and predicted it be interpreted that way.


All the topic is reiterating is that children get approval from their parents . The minors have the authorities over them. Just a simple setup of our society. A child gets an approval about his or her allowed behavior like any other behavior. Which could be socially one gender over the other or acting unruly over behaving disciplined.


The topic is "Should children allow themselves to be socially transgendered?"


See, if the opposing side didn't allow the keywords to fall by the wayside, what could be seen is something straightforward non controversial.


The keywords are "allow themselves".


But the opposite side is distracted by autonomy.


The basic relationship structure between minors and adults in society is approval of one over the other's affairs and welfare.


This is general parental structure. So in general, children or minors don't allow themselves to do anything without parental guidance bestowed on to parents mandated.


Anything, anything, anything that a child does brings to question of the responsibility of whom the child is in care of. So we have things such as child endangerment, child neglect and child welfare investigations.


If the mandate is not upheld or enforced, social services/child protective services are involved.


This is straightforward and the topic was glossed over. I predicted that someone would miss the keys. Perhaps many didn't and stayed away .

Round 3

3 of 4
avatar
Mal
Con #5

I rest my case.

I am back and sorry for the forfeiture!


My Arguments


It is not disputed that being socially transgendered is not harmful to the child or those around them. To win this debate I must show that a child should allow themselves to make their own decisions regarding their identify, even if a parent doesn't like it.


Children should do what is best for themselves


“Children’s opportunities for autonomous decision-making are associated with higher levels of self-esteem, better emotional regulation, and stronger internal motivation.”

— Deci, E. L., & Ryan, R. M. (2000). The ‘what’ and ‘why’ of goal pursuits: Human needs and the self-determination of behavior. Psychological Inquiry, 11(4), 227–268. (1)


Children should respect their parents. However, they also must do what's needed for own happiness and success. Especially in this case, where it it a matter of the child's own identity. A parent should never obstruct a child from realizing who they want to be as a person.


So, even if a parent disproves, children should themselves to decide their own identify.


Sources:

  1. https://doi.org/10.1207/S15327965PLI1104_01

Round 4

4 of 4
avatar
Mal
Con #7

Really case closed.

My points have not been addressed, have not been refuted.


The opposing side is just reiterating in basic terms , children should have , possess , decide things of their own autonomy.


Essentially be their own parents. Which is utter nonsense. The law doesn't recognize minors as adults and total responsibility for children to be allowed anything is by an adult figure period.


I understand the opposing side is attempting to persist this delusional talking point but it is totally unrealistic and not sound. Instead of facing that, admitting that, this delusion is perpetuated. That's why none of my points are being responded to.


It's just "children should allow themselves" , the end.


It is the end of the debate.

Throughout this debate it seems my opponent has only presented one argument; children should not be able to allow themselves to do anything, because society is structured where parents are an authority over them.

"The basic relationship structure between minors and adults in society is approval of one over the other's affairs and welfare.
This is general parental structure. So in general, children or minors don't allow themselves to do anything without parental guidance bestowed on to parents mandated."

I thought my argument covered this, though that is evidently not the case.


I agree that in general children should not be making life decisions without parental oversight. However, I still maintain that in a situation where the decision is absolutely revocable, harmless, and regarding the child's very identity, then they should be able to act without parental approval. In other words, they should should provide themselves permission.


See my evidence regarding the importance of self-decision making for children above.


Because children should always be able to make revocable decisions about their own identity, vote pro!

New comment

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•••
#6

the mere existence of this debate as debate disproves Pro position, Pro tries to make a decision while claiming not to make a decision.

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#5

Pro lost in round 1.

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•••
#4
--> @Kohai

You edited it to say its for ultra debate only.

The standards of the voting and topic rubrics are complementary.

The burden of proof and the standards to give equal weighing of arguements are not seperated.
How does one equal weigh a description when it always favors to weigh reinterpretation or rephrasing instead of the arguement?

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#3
--> @melcharaz

Those rules are only applicable for ultra rated debates. Any other rated or unrated topic is open for anything

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•••
#2
--> @Kohai, @Ragnar, @Savant, @whiteflame

Will not vote because description fails topic rubric.

https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/debatecraft/posts/gh/topic-rubricsuggestion


"Must be specific, with a clear scope of what is and isn’t being debated.


Must be fair, with each side having a roughly equal opportunity to win."

Description to "not rephrase or reinterpret"
Does not grant equal opportunity to win, the voter must weigh every attempt of these perimeters, it ultimately disregards the purpose of debating.

I ask mods and staff to either remove this or to treat all debates under lesser standards as it is not a debate in good faith.
(See also hyper's vote regarding it)

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•••
#1
--> @Hyper

Thanks for voting and welcome to the site!

Rohith
#3
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
This totally my opinion[ as a common man not debate expert ] . I don't like or have time to write about 1000+ words , So My reason will be in a single passage.

Mal argued about children must get approval from their parents to make this decision[ all] . This doesn't satisfies or explains about his view . "First off no minor has right to anything to supercede parental/guardianship representation. Not withstanding certain legal declarations which would be irrelevant on top of that."- This is pure dictator things , What is meant by supercede ? He not mentioned which law prohibits a child from making his own decision . He failed to argue what would be the effects if a child made decisions themselves.

Pro clearly thrown a stone to Mal's card house in R1. He mentioned parents can only advise . They are not a judge or King as a human child is not parent's product , Child's have brain , life , heart. I think once a child thought to think about his own decision making he stepped first step in maturity . As con failed , Pro won.
If anybody need further reasons message or comment it. Thank you . A good debate and topic, keep it up.
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
Con starts by telling pro to prove there is a legal right to be socially trans. Pro explains that socially trans is not physically harmful and not a life changing decision. Pro says we should let kids decide for themselves.

Con then says children need parental permission, but pro points out parents have no right to control every single thing a child does, especially personal things like this.

The debate gets off track. Pro is able to point out that we should simply let kids make personal decisions, and being trans is a very personal affair.

Pro wins the debate.
Hyper
#1
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
First off (and not really relevant to the debate), I'll note that forbidding rephrasing or reinterpretation is an unreasonable burden, and one that I would never vote on, even if it's defined in the description. It's much more reasonable to say that "misrepresenting" is a forfeiture-worthy violation.

Moving on to the debate itself:

R1:

The negative's main argument is that a minor doesn't have the right to supercede parental permission, and that presumably, social transgenderism is something that parents don't want, although this is never warranted.

The affirmative's main argument is twofold; first, that social transgenderism doesn't require legal approval from a parent, and second, that autonomy is a good value to uphold for children.

The first one is just defense that narrows the neg's purview to social rights rather than legal ones, so only autonomy flows as an offensive argument.

The aff also defines socially transgendered, which I'm willing to buy considering the instigator never defined the term, and didn't address it in their next argument.

R2:

The negative replies with a somewhat messy argument; they frame the topic as requiring that children obtain approval from their parents before considering themselves socially transgender, and thus, the negative harms social rights of parents. The framing isn't really warranted, but it's also dropped by the aff later on.

The argument about autonomy is dropped by the neg.

The aff forfeits a round, and while I'm not going to consider that a total drop, it's a pretty serious disadvantage.

R3:

Neg extends.

Aff warrants autonomy and weighs it against social rights using the value of childrens' wellbeing. Correctly points out that neg doesn't warrant why social transgenderism, as defined, is a bad thing.

R4:

Neg brings up legal recognition, which I find incongruent with their R2. I buy aff's R2 framing that social transgenderism doesn't fall within a legal framework, so legal recognition is irrelevant.

Weighing of autonomy is dropped by the neg.

Aff extends.

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Final decision:

By the end of the debate, I have the neg bringing up social rights of parents as a voter, with the aff bringing up autonomy of children. Anything else is made irrelevant by the neg admitting that social transgenderism isn't harmful by virtue of dropping aff's arguments arguing for it.

I buy autonomy over social rights because the aff's warranted autonomy with wellbeing for children, while the neg doesn't give me a clear reason for why social rights for parents are important. Furthermore, the aff's weighing is dropped entirely.

Thus, I vote for the affirmative side.