According to scripture, Jesus Christ, the Son of God is Father God

Greetings to the opposing side.

The topic is : According to scripture, Jesus Christ, the Son of God is Father God.

So with scripture we're going to learn that Jesus Christ is the son of God . We're also going to learn that Jesus the Christ son of God is also God and God is the Father.

It'll be up to the opposite side to show in scripture and we can read God stops being the Father. If the opposing side , doesn't agree that Christ was and is God, the opposite side will have to get scripture for that.

This is what the topic is about. Not about so called modalism, modes, persons, trinity, personalities. We can't read any of that in scripture . Plus to throw a monkey wrench in there to stir the pot, Christ didn't invent Christianity. That's right. We can't read read anywhere God established christianity ever.

Now without further ado, scripture say, for everything is now ready and be ready to give an answer.

Let's get the book of Matthew chapter 16.

Let's get bible for "thou art the Christ".

So we start at verse thirteen.

"13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus was told he was or art the Christ, the son of the living God.

Now Christ said "but my Father". So he was the son of a Father, Son of God.

So now we've hit the Father being God and Christ being the son.

So somebody might ask, well how Is Jesus God when he referred to God in heaven as the Father? How is he the Father being that he was the son?

This is the mystery of godliness. Trinitarians invented false doctrine over receiving the mystery. The apostles were given the mystery. They received it not of man but by revelation of Christ.

Christ reveals it, God reveals it. The book of Corinthians teaches God showing the deep things of God as well as what we just learned about God revealing who the son of God was.

Who was the son of God?

The son of God was God manifested in the flesh.That's how the son was God. God revealed who his son was. God revealed who he was in the flesh.

Let's get the book of Timothy where we read great is the mystery. Now this subject, as the verse says .... without controversy.....but men all over the world debating this subject.

I certainly have cause and the book saying debate thy cause, bringing forth strong reason.

Alright well in first Timothy chapter three and at verse sixteen .

"16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

God was manifest in flesh. God wasn't just in heaven . God was also manifest in flesh.

Jesus said before Abraham was, I am.

In John 14, we learn the Father is sending another comforter.

But in John 16, just a cloud of witnesses from John, Jesus will send the helper.

Also in Luke twenty four, thus he will send.

Could it be that Jesus is the Father? Now if we accept that the Father is the Holy Spirit, is he going away to come back as in the second coming? Too much mystery.

I'll stop with this. Scriptures teaches that when Christ was seen, the Father was seen. God was again not just in heaven, but was manifest.

So being that God was there in flesh being as the book says "God with us", who was this God once more?

The Father. For Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father".

So Father God with them being seen, showing his works, he doing the works and the words being spoken are spirit which God is the word that became flesh.

We learn this in several chapters throughout John.

That flesh did works and miracles fulfilling the book.

What book?

Let's get the book of Isaiah.

In chapter 35.

"4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

It says "fearful heart". The scriptures emphasize over and over regarding the heart. Very integral part of the teaching.

"5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert."

So God who is the word spoken from Jesus, whom God drawed to, is in work in the heart that did all these works in the flesh for God was manifest in, Jesus Christ.

Shall waters break out , believe on him as the scripture have said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Being Jesus also the word of God according to scripture, there is ONE God. That one according to the scripture is the Father,is,not is not but is. Which is which was which is to come, the ALMIGHTY.

Now I leave it to the opposing side to start asking questions and I can be ready to give an answer.

"Christ has built His Church upon Peter. The Church will not fall into error like you claim. You believe the true message was corrupted by trinitarians."

I never made such a statement or claim and you can't quote it.

"Wow. Doesn’t just saying it’s a mystery get old? You have admitted your argument doesn’t make sense."

It's striking when you say old as it reminds me of the scriptures saying "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake".

See, men of God, the apostles had the mystery. They were given the mystery. Scripture say whatsoever things written before time. So of course we're dealing with things of old but that's not the point. The scripture teaches the mystery of godliness. You can't read the trinity doctrine of godliness or it is given unto you to know the trinity doctrine.

Holy men were moved by God , not by a cemetery or rather seminary school.

I would appreciate it if you not bear false witness either. Either quote what I've said and respond but don't make statements I've never made and admissions I've never made.

The stipulation is to quote directly and that means exactly that.

"The best way to reconcile these two verses is to say both of them send the Holy Spirit. The Fathers sends the Holy Spirit through the Son. It doesn’t make sense to say Jesus and the Father are the same person."

The scripture is already telling us both will send. That's not the matter to reconcile. What we line up is Jesus saying he will pray the Father to send but yet he himself sends.

Why? He's praying or asking for what he does. Just like he is the son asked to show the father but being the son you see Him the father, they see the father. The father they were seeing was before Abraham so Jesus said "before Abraham, I am".

Ok, so was there two or one God before Abraham? Was there two spirits or one before Abraham?

For the record, I'm not making arguments. I don't have to argue nor argue when I just bring forth witnesses. I just show you scriptures and all your counters are just against scriptures.

You're rebuttals are towards the scriptures. I didn't say what Jesus said, he said it. Leave me out of it.

"If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirt are the same person, then is the Father praying to Himself to send Himself? This makes no sense. Also, notice the word “another.”

GREAT ......is the mystery of godliness.

Jesus also said when you see him you see the Father. But he's the son and the Father is in heaven, what gives?

Well.....great is the mystery of godliness.

Like I pointed out, Jesus was to pray to the Father to send that what he will send, what gives?

Also by the way, there is no scripture teaching about the godhead or God being a person. Scripture say, Jesus said God is a spirit.

There's one spirit, one God just as the scripture says .

So the question is , I believe the opposite side won't be able to answer, is that spirit the Father or is the spirit the holy Spirit or is that spirit the son of the Father?

Let's see what the opposing side's answer is going to be.

So of course the mystery is going to leave you in it not making sense to you. According to the scripture, you're not going to understand this by reading.

That's why atheists are lost because they read these scriptures like any other book and call false contradictions.

I digress .

"The Father says He is pleased with His Son. This would make no sense if they are just the same person. How can you be your own son? Why would you need to say you’re pleased with yourself?"

The problem with the opposite side, there's this constant preoccupation with "same person".

Same person, same person, same person, same person, same person.

The bible don't teach " same person".

The bible teaches one God, not three persons but one God, different natures.

Different natures. Different natures. Different natures.

Scripture say he took not on the nature of angels.

The scripture teaches the word became flesh. He who is God the word took part of flesh and blood.

There is one spirit , many operations.

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit, there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

There are diversities of operations,

but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

When and where the bible teaches there is one, that is what that really means and there is none else.

Now folk have come along and started adding to scripture given strong delusion to believe a lie.

"We know that the Word must be Christ because verse 14 says “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” If Christ is God the Father, saying “the Word was with God” would be useless since there is no reason to say someone is with himself."

Scripture say lean not unto your own understanding. The opposite side is coming up with the opposing side's own reasoning to dictate what is useless according to what make sense, right.

Remember the opposite side stated"This makes no sense."

Problem right there. You don't look for what makes sense. You look for what the bible teaches. Again, people are atheists behind this.

What makes sense to you is leaning on your own understanding.

You just said "We know that the Word must be Christ".

Now the word is God.

So the question I have for you ..........................is God the Father?

We're going to conclude with this question, because this is the end all be all.

"It says God has spoken to us through His Son. It also says He made the world through His Son. Why would it need to say He made the world through Himself? Theses verses clearly show the Father and the Son are distinct persons."

The opposite side is still arguing about why the scripture says things and not say certain things and other things.

Instead of trying to make it to your private interpretation as the scripture say it is not of, just see what it teaches.

See if these things are so as the scripture say to search for.

Is it so that Jesus is the Father?

You just said "We know that the Word must be Christ".

Now the word is God.

So the question I have for you ..........................is God the Father?

"This is pretty harsh if you ask me."

Scriptures teach though I be rude in speech not in knowledge.

Scripture teach reprove them sharply.

"the best interpretation is that both of them send, not that the Father and Son are the same person. A good way to explain it is the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father through the Son."

Instead of figuring out an interpretation, just give bible that says what you say.

Scripture say according to as it is written. Scripture didn't say according to "best interpretation".

"You have also still been unable to explain why God would pray to Himself to send Himself. You cannot explain this with your view."

I don't have to . I could do all this extra work to help you. This is why this trinity doctrine exists. You don't have the mystery behind all this so you come up with what "makes sense" to you.

But the scripture didn't say it is given unto you that it will make sense. It is given unto you to know the mystery.

Appropriately enough, the scriptures teach you know not the way of the spirit.

Where it never said the spirit is a person either .

Once you already agree Christ is God, you already agree he is the Father unless you can show from scripture that God stops being the Father at anytime.

"There is only one God."

That's correct, there's only one God. Notice the opposite side didn't say only one God with two or three persons. That's right because there's no Bible for it.

"You think you’re presenting the scriptures, but you’re really just presenting your personal interpretation of them."

Prove it. Prove I'm saying things the scripture is not saying. Every point I make , you can read it . That's how you know what is private interpretation versus what is written .

I'm going to have to keep stressing that.

"Instead of answering the question, pro has chosen to say it’s just mystery. At least, trinitarians can come up with analogies but still admit none of them are perfect since it is a mystery. Pro, on the other hand, cannot come up with any sort of comparison or analogy to explain this logic and can only say it is a mystery without any way to explain it at all."

The answer is that it's a mystery. That's what the bible says. You can reject it but this is a biblical discussion.

Scripture say great is the mystery not great is the logic. This is where the trinitarian doctrine comes from. It comes from logic . Men that couldn't get the mystery tried to understand this LOGICALLY invented the so called trinity doctrine along with christianity.

"I don’t think this verse means what you want it to mean. Since the Father and Son are of the same essence, seeing the Son is the same as seeing the Father."

He didn't say when you see me you see the son. You see me(flesh) you see the Father.

Scripture say they handled that from which was from the beginning.

Scripture say in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When you see the Father, you cannot see him without seeing God as well. When you see God , you cannot see him without seeing the Father as well .

The problem you'll have is trying to separate the two. You don't get one without the other.

"The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit."

But is the spirit the holy Spirit? That is the question I predicted correctly you would not answer directly.

"You seem to be pointing out the problems with private interpretation yourself. We need the Holy Spirit to help us figure out the confusing parts of scripture."

I know it "seems" that way. Not necessarily so though.

"God is not composed of different parts. Saying the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different natures seems problematic with the traditional understanding of God."

Forget about "seems" . Does the Bible teach different natures?

"One God means there is one Trinity."

Let me get bible that says this.

"So the question I have for you ..........................is God the Father?”

"This seems to be a trick question. The Father is God. "

Ok I'll take this. You just switched it around from what the question is asking for if you were to say yes, God is the Father to the Father is God ok.

You just agreed whether realizing it or not , accepting it or not , Jesus who is God who is the Father is God.

Boom. Thank you.

Nothing else is relevant to this topic. It's over.

"Who gets to determine what the Bible says? I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where Jesus gave you permission to do this.

Ultimately, pro wants to make it look like this interpretation is what the Bible says. Pro wants this to be a “Bible vs. Con” debate. This is not how the world works."

YOU DON'T DETERMINE, YOU JUST READ IT.

Are you this lost?

Scripture say we having the same spirit of faith according to as it is WRITTEN.

We don't have to worry about determining anything. If it is written, we speak what is written.

In the scriptures when the people wanted to see whether these things be so , what did they do or are to do?

They search the scriptures, what is written, daily.

They didn't get caught up in "how do we determine"...."what is the proper interpretation"...."what is exegesis?"...."what is isogesis?"..."what about this hermeneutic?"...."what about that one that the seminary said?".

They had the scriptures. We have them. We read what is written.

Every point I'm making we can read it. This way you can't make the excuse it's my interpretation, my view.

But unto us there is one God the Father.

That's a statement I'm making that pertains to my position.

That is written, we can read that. So when I say one God the Father, I'm not determining or specially interpreting what the text is saying, it just says it .

That's what is meant by plain plain plain plain.

I can read "one God the Father". I say that. I can read that . I can read my position.

You can't read "one God and Jesus the second person". But that is your position, right and we can't even read that.

We can't read "one God stops being the Father". I'm waiting on that scripture from the opposite side where we can read that.

The opposite side ain't going to be able to find it .

With scriptures like the "everlasting Father" and "a God that changes not" I believe, it would contradict with them.

Let me tell you something. Anytime you say God but deny him being the Father, you are contradicting him, you are contradicting the scripture.

God did not stop being the Father.

Scripture say from everlasting to everlasting.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit.

But the spirit of Christ was in the prophets.

The Father has no variation or shadow due to change according to scripture.

"Yes, this is correct. But your opinion is still your interpretation."

I tell you one thing. I can read my so called opinion in scripture.

If you want to call it my "opinion", fine.

It is my "opinion" that there is one God the Father.

Now ask me to read it. Once I read , is it still my opinion or the bible's opinion?

The fact is , we can read what I'm saying. We can't even find a half a scripture, a quarter of scripture of reading what you're saying.

"Jesus never said keep looking at the Bible until you are convinced one interpretation is better. Jesus said this before there even was a Bible."

Right and the scripture also said "believe on him as the scripture have said ".

So what did the scripture say about Jesus?

He's called GOD WITH US . Who is God, THE FATHER.

See, that's line upon line. Scripture says line upon line, here a little, there a little. We can read line upon line my "opinion".

The opposite side has yet to show the scripture doesn't present all these witnesses of lines.

"The Bible needs to be interpreted by the Church. Scripture was never meant to be plain where the truth would always be so obvious."

Give me bible that says "the bible needs to be interpreted by the church".

I got bible that says we use great plainness of speech. So this subject is very plain that a fool or wayfaring man need not to error.

But you go in error denying the scripture, not knowing the scripture but adhering to perhaps seminary teachings of man.

Give me bible that says "the bible needs to be interpreted by the church".

I got bible that teaches that the spirit will teach you all things. The spirit will give you understanding.

That's why you have this false trinity doctrine going by "church interpretation".

There is no special or private interpretation. It is revelation given by Christ to the apostles whom GOD SET IN THE CHURCH.

That's what bible says. It is got to be given unto you. You error not knowing the scripture.

"Pro is unable to explain the modalistic (pro will dispute this is the correct name) viewpoint. I can explain the Trinity, but pro is unable to give us any sort of way to explain Jesus praying to Himself."

It's because there's no Bible for it. If you notice, audience, I continue to bring bible into my responses and everything I'm saying ultimately.

The opposite side is bringing up trinity and modalistic. Why am I going to explain anything that's not biblical in a biblical debate?

Furthermore if the opposite side is saying Jesus is God , the opposite side has already conceded. Nothing else is necessary. Unless we get bible that says "God stops being the Father".

"What are you holding onto so much that you are willing to sacrifice logic for your viewpoint?"

I can't find bible that says "great is the logic".

How many times do I have to say this?

Bible say ole fool slow of heart to believe all what the prophets have said.

Did what they say lean on logic or what God gave them?

According to scripture, you're supposed to sacrifice and deny yourself (mind+logic).

The prophets didn't lean on their own understanding (logic). Scripture say lean not unto your own understanding.

You trying to rationalize and work through logic..... I'm telling you ...the opposing side does not know the scripture.

Just completely ignorant.

This is why people are trinitarians. They're gone into error leaning on their logic and people are atheists leaning on their logic.

The opposite side keeps pushing logic logic logic because that is what the trinity doctrine is. It is a constructed logical framework to go around receiving the mystery.

This isn't a mystery for no reason. It's not going to be understood by logic.

But these folks twist the scripture into logical terms they can understand anyway.

"People who defend certain beliefs with the Bible honestly need to realize any view is a personal view. This is why we need the Church."

No Bible for this.

No bible.

Just note audience.

The opposite side continues to make statements giving no bible to back them up. Just a word of man.

"Jesus is a Father, but He is not the Father. In Isaiah 9:6, He is called “Everlasting Father.” "

Do we have two everlasting Fathers in the godhead?

"The Bible teaches God is one nature. Are you saying God is different natures?"

No I'm asking again does the Bible teach different natures?

If you don't know, just say so and I will teach you.

"God is a Father, but “the Father” is a person of the Trinity. This statement can be true, but pro is obviously going to use this against me."

That's not what I asked you. I asked is God the Father, not a father.

Is God the Father?

If you don't say yes, you are indirectly saying we have two Fathers or more than one in the Godhead.

I want you to think real clearly before you answer .

This is how much error the trinity doctrine is leading you into.

If it can't teach that there is one God THE FATHER but one God A FATHER, you are not doing well.

"How can Jesus be the Father if He is called the Son of God?"

Great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifest in flesh , received up into glory. God was received up .

How can God be received up when God is already up in heaven?

Scripture says "God in heaven".

So what gives again?

We can ask multiple questions...why this ...why that? Without receiving the mystery....you posit a man made doctrine of the gaps ..... trinity.

Instead of making this more complicated than it has to be with all the questions making the road too long for thee, stick and only stick with the question I asked you.

I'm telling you, it will either prove the point or it won't. Just that one question.

Is God the Father?

If you say yes, that proves the point. You haven't gotten bible that he stops being the Father.

You're talking but not speaking as the oracles of God.

Now for the sake of truth and your yea be yea, Is God the Father?

"The passage you are talking about is Acts 17:11. This passage is talking about Bereans who are reading the Old Testament to see if the teaching of the Apostles make sense. Reading the Bible daily doesn’t guarantee you will get the right interpretation."

Having eyes they see not . Having ears they hear not. Bible say of all thy getting, get understanding.

Consider what I say and the Lord may give you understanding of what I'm saying.

"I don’t think it’s really “God stops being the Father” and more that the Father never stops being God. God is not just the Father but also the Son and Holy Spirit."

That's what I thought. No scripture teaches God ever stops being the father so when the scripture is referring to God it is referring to the Father which means saying "God but not the Father" is not biblical.

"God but not the Father"......"God but not the Father".......total falsehood.

"That proves my point. The Father can only be the Father. He cannot be the Son. You are the one who believes in variations and shadows of God."

Now that's wrong. The Father cannot only be the Father. The Father is also Holy. The Father is also God which God is a spirit.

So Holy Father (God) Spirit .

To say he is not holy and not spirit according to the bible is telling a lie.

The Father cannot only be the Father. The Father is also God. God was also manifest.

Manifest in what ?

Flesh. Flesh of who?

Emmanuel, GOD WITH US. Not just Father. But everlasting Father. Not just Father. But God. Not just God. But the mighty God. Not just the Father but wonderful, counselor, prince of peace.

Hallelujah.

Father cannot be just the Father. The Father is also God. God is also the Word.

The Word was made or became flesh.

Scripture says made of a woman.

You better get off this subject. Scripture say woe unto them.

"Pro is conceding that all interpretations are based off of opinions. It’s good to see this for a change. I was getting tired of being told that it’s just what Scripture says."

Scripture say ole fool and slow of heart. Is the opposite side that slow not to realize the opposing side's words are not mine?

I think Jesus said "thou has said it".

Otherwise it's a cheap fallacious victory to pretend to the audience that I agree what you call opinion actually makes it that.

There's a difference in what you call something versus what it actually is. You can call it anything you want. You calling it opinion doesn't actually make it that .

I'm not calling it opinion. You are. I'm just simply acknowledging that you call it that in turn denying scripture.

So it is what scripture says what YOU SAY IS OPINION.

"And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. (Matthew 18:17 DRB)

Where in the Bible does it say the Bible needs to be interpreted by private revelation? It doesn’t:

Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20 DRB)"

I said give bible where it says " the bible needs to be interpreted by the church."

You're not going to find it because you can't even find the word "bible" in the scriptures.

"Who says God has to be the Father? Plus, how can Jesus be the Father if He is the Son of God?"

Paul says but unto us there is ONE GOD THE FATHER. HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS BE SAID?

Is Paul lying? If you say he is lie, you calling Jesus a lie.

How can Jesus be the Father?

JESUS IS GOD. This is according to scripture.

Jesus is God(Father). If you say he is not the Father, get bible that says God stopped being the Father.

We're punching air here as 1 Corinthians 9 teaches because you're not bringing any scripture.

"Like I said, pro has given up logic to stay in the debate. Pro can only say the Bible says so and it’s a mystery."

Punching air. I'm just not going to continue in circles. I did a short work. Debate is done.

Jesus said, it is finished.

"In the Trinity, there is one Father, but in other cases there can be more than one father. I’m saying it’s not exactly wrong to think of Jesus as a father, but He is clearly not THE Father since He talks about the Father sending Him, doing the will of the Father, and praying to the Father."

Ok give us bible, that we have two everlasting fathers?

Mind you, two Fathers, two Gods.

Don't give me what you think or what logic tells you . Get book chapter and verse.

This is a biblical based debate. Prove what you say with bible.

"Pro has proved the Trinity. First, pro has been forced to say it is a “mystery” without any way to explain the logic at all. Second, the best way to explain God being received up when God is already up in heaven is that God is more than one person. Pro has proven the Trinity."

Scripture say ole fool slow of heart.

"Let’s end with this verse that clearly shows Jesus is not the Father:

Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. (John 8:54 DRB)

Let’s see how pro gets out of this one."

The opposing side said"clearly shows".

But why can't we read it? We didn't read "Jesus is not the Father" because Jesus is God which the opposing side believes.

So as the scripture says "they know not what they do". The opposing side does not know that when you say Jesus is God you are saying he is the Father.

This is not what is being understood by the opposite side. The opposite side continues to separate God and Father.

But there's no scripture that teaches these are separate. Scripture teaches these are one. Scripture teaches God the Father. It does not teach , God the Father sometimes or here and not there.

It don't teach that.

According to the scripture, God is the Father. Period. Always. Everlasting.

This is what these trinitarians don't get.

Jesus in John 17 is in the flesh speaking to the spirit. This has nothing to do nor teaches that Jesus is not God and that God stops being the Father.

The opposing side agrees Jesus is God, God is the Father. Plain syllogism.

If the opposing side can't or doesn't address this, it is concession to my position.