The Holy Spirit is Father God according to scriptures.

Please quote exactly. Do not rephrase or reinterpret. Answer all questions directly. Failure to comply with all this is an automatic forfeit.

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Round 1

1 of 5

Mal

Pro #1

Greetings.

This will be quite simple.

I believe in making it plain , with plainness of speech as the bible say.

Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.

Is God the Father, the holy Ghost?

Yes.

Father God is Holy.

Let's start in the old testament.

Going to the book of Deuteronomy chapter 6 and verse 4 hear O Israel, right.

So in verse four it says the following:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

So if we know there's one God , Father and creator, any that is connected and not broken to this God has to be the one.

We read in Isaiah about the holy ONE of Israel.

In chapter 45.

"11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

So the Lord our God, the Lord, the holy one, the maker , that maketh all things.

This LORD GOD is Father.

Malachi 2 says have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

God asked is there a God besides him.

There is none else the book says, just the holy one. The holy one God the Father.

I'm almost wrapping it up .

This holy God that is that maker, maker of man is whom of what a man named Job spoke of.

Job 33 :4

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

The spirit of God, the maker, the creator, right. God is that spirit that maketh all things because the scriptures says there is none else and he stretched for the heavens alone, ONE.

With holy God being spirit, he is holy and spirit so he's holy Spirit.

I yield there and that was just old testament. I didn't even have to go to the new.

This was short and quick.

Like the scripture say the Lord will do a short work.

A quick work.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #2

Introduction

Anyone looking at this debate should know that I am also debating Mal about whethere Jesus is the Father in another debate, so you’ll see some overlapping perhaps. I already know what some of Mal’s viewpoints from the other debate too, so you may seen some things I say that Mal didn’t state in this debate but I already know some things Mal believes.

Understanding Scripture

First up I’ll take a few quotes from from pro’s starting/greeting. Any quotes from pro will be in bold and have quotes.

“I believe in making it plain , with plainness of speech as the bible say.”

Pro wants to claim plainness and simplicity to win this debate, but Holy Scripture never claimed to be easy to understand as St. Peter tells us:

[O]ur most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16 DRB)

If Holy Scripture were really so easy to understand, we would not be having this debate.

“Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established.”

Wouldn’t the Trinity work better to get “two or three witnesses” as you say? And then they can use each other as witnesses for each other. For example, Jesus uses the Father as a witness to Him.

And there came a voice from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. (Mark 1:11 DRB)

Deuteronomy 6:4

Pro uses Deuteronomy 6:4 to argue that God can only be one person, but I think we should look at the original Hebrew of the text:

Strong'sHebrewPronunciationEnglish8085 [e]שְׁמַ֖ע‪‬šə-ma‘HearV-Qal-Imp-ms 3478 [e]יִשְׂרָאֵ֑לyiś-rā-’êl;IsraelN-proper-ms 3068 [e]יְהוָ֥הYah-wehYahwehN-proper-ms 430 [e]אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ’ĕ-lō-hê-nūour GodN-mpc | 1cp 3068 [e]יְהוָ֥ה ׀Yah-wehYahwehN-proper-ms 259 [e]אֶחָֽד׃‪‬’e-ḥāḏ[is] oneNumber-ms

The word for “our God” is אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (’ĕ·lō·hê·nū) which comes from the word אֱלֹהִים (Ĕlōhīm). Elohim can mean “gods,” but it cannot mean that in this case because it says Yahweh is one. Elohim is a plural noun, so the Trinity seems like the best way to fit the plurality of Elohim and the oneness together.

I would also argue that the oldest English translations, like the Douay-Rheims and King James, usually use the wording “the Lord our God is one Lord.” The “one” part is trying to say there is one Lord, not that there is only one person. You can see in the Athanasian Creed:

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords.

Nicene Christians clearly do not believe there are multiple lords. They instead believe in one Lord, just like

the verse from Deuteronomy commands us to believe.

“Malachi 2 says have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?”

Trinitarians clearly accept this, as seen in the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

“God asked is there a God besides him.”

Well, the Holy Spirit (and the Son) are still the same God. Neither of these verses limit God to being only a single person.

“With holy God being spirit, he is holy and spirit so he's holy Spirit.”

Pro now seems to just be playing with the words “holy” and “spirit,” while simutaneously ignoring verses that show the Holy Spirit is clearly a distinct person from the Father. Therefore, I will move on to my own points.

Paraclete

And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. (John 14:16)

Why would Jesus ask Himself to give Himself? Also, notice the word “another.” The Father has already spoken to the Israelites, and Jesus has spoken to His Apostles. The Paraclete has to be a new person.

But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:26 DRB)

The Father will send the Holy Spirit in Christ’s name. The important role of each person is lost when you claim the Holy Spirit is the Father.

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. (John 16:7 DRB)

This verse shows that the Holy Spirit comes through Jesus. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit. Why would Jesus send Himself? The Father also sends the Holy Spirit as seen in the verses above.

Round 2

2 of 5

Mal

Pro #3

"Wouldn’t the Trinity work better to get “two or three witnesses” as you say? And then they can use each other as witnesses for each other. For example, Jesus uses the Father as a witness to Him."

Yes the two or three witnesses will establish the falsehood of three persons because none of which said three persons.

Now how plain is that ?

Scripture speaks plain.

So this wasn't much. The opposing side didn't really say anything. The opposite side thought something was being said with attempting to offer an opposing case to me.

The opposing side after reviewing what was said, showed not one scripture that disproved God as being holy and the Father and spirit.

Let alone, three persons. That wasn't even the debate .

1 Corinthians 8 and 6 teaches there is ONE GOD the Father..it left out "three persons" for some reason..... I can say confidently for the reason of truth.

Let me ask the opposite side.

Is the Father who is God ...... holy ?

First witness was in 1 Corinthians 8.

Now if you don't say yes....John will condemn you, second witness.

Is the Father who is God ...... holy ?

SomeDebatePerson

Con #4

“Scripture speaks plain.”

Where is this in Scripture? In the previous verse, I showed you a verse in which Peter says Paul’s epistles can be confusing. Where in the Bible does it say everything is plain?

[O]ur most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16 DRB)

“The opposing side after reviewing what was said, showed not one scripture that disproved God as being holy and the Father and spirit.”

Like I said in the previous round, pro seems to be playing with words again. God is holy and a spirit. Angels are also holy and spiritual beings. In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called “Everlasting Father.” Jesus is a Father to us, but not in the same way as God the Father.

“So this wasn't much. The opposing side didn't really say anything. The opposite side thought something was being said with attempting to offer an opposing case to me.”

What? You ignored everything I said. Pro is hoping anyone looking at this debate won’t notice.

“Let alone, three persons. That wasn't even the debate.”

You want to understand how I can say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the Father but still God. The answer is the Trinity.

“1 Corinthians 8 and 6 teaches there is ONE GOD the Father..it left out "three persons" for some reason..... I can say confidently for the reason of truth.”

The next part of the verse talks about the Lord Jesus. Are you trying to say God is only Father? Who is Jesus’ father then? Who sends the Holy Spirit?

“Is the Father who is God ...... holy ?”

God the Father is Holy.

Pro was unable to answer my questions about why Jesus says the Paraclete is “another helper.” Pro was also unable to explain why Jesus is praying to Himself to send Himself.

I’ll end the round with this verse:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:13 DRB)

Round 3

3 of 5

Mal

Pro #5

"Where in the Bible does it say everything is plain?"

I don't believe that is in the scriptures. But the scripture speaks plain.

Two different things. Scripture say we use great plainness of speech and that's what I be speaking, speaking plain and I speak that which what I believe .

"Jesus is a Father to us, but not in the same way as God the Father."

The opposite side just shot himself in the foot. Scripture say have we not all one Father?

Now I believe the opposing side believes Jesus is God. The scripture says in Malachi 2, have not ONE GOD created us?

That scripture didn't say one God, two fathers.

There is only one God the Father. Scripture say but unto us there is one GOD THE FATHER. It didn't say but unto us One God, two fathers.

That trinitarian doctrine is causing the opposing side to make shipwreck of the godhead.

"The answer is the Trinity."

Yes a man made doctrine. The answer should be bible . Not doctrine of man. This doctrine came from man received of man. Paul didn't receive it of man but by revelation of Christ and Christ didn't tell him he was the second person nor holy Spirit the third.

What did Paul tell us?

But unto us there is one God the Father. He didn't say one God with three persons. So where did "three persons" come from?

Man.

Paul teaches again, in second Corinthians 6, the holy Spirit will be a father. It's talking about those adopted in to be sons of God.

"The next part of the verse talks about the Lord Jesus. Are you trying to say God is only Father? "

No.

Jesus is God (Father)

"Who is Jesus’ father then? Who sends the Holy Spirit?"

That can be a separate debate. Let me know .

So because the opposite side has all these questions and hasn't gotten the mystery, the opposite side will use what men have made up to make it make sense versus receiving revelation.

Jesus is God (Father).

Now if this isn't true, in the other debate, you are to show me in scripture where God stops.......being the Father.

"God the Father is Holy."

You just called the Father holy Spirit.

God(spirit) the Father is holy.

"Pro was unable to answer my questions about why Jesus says the Paraclete is “another helper.” Pro was also unable to explain why Jesus is praying to Himself to send Himself."

Not of the debate. Much of this wasn't.

But I accept your concession.

"God the Father is Holy."

You just called the Father holy Spirit.

God(spirit) the Father is holy.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #6

“I don't believe that is in the scriptures. But the scripture speaks plain.

“Two different things. Scripture say we use great plainness of speech and that's what I be speaking, speaking plain and I speak that which what I believe.”

The “plainness of speech” is saying not to make things more complex than they need to be. It’s not saying Scripture is plain and anyone can interpret it. If Scripure is plain, why are we even having this debate?

“The opposite side just shot himself in the foot. Scripture say have we not all one Father?”

That’s not the context. God the Father is one Father. Jesus can be described as a father, but not in the same way.

“Yes a man made doctrine. The answer should be bible . Not doctrine of man. This doctrine came from man received of man. Paul didn't receive it of man but by revelation of Christ and Christ didn't tell him he was the second person nor holy Spirit the third.”

Pro is trying to make modalism sound like it is from God. Pro will simply say it isn’t modalism. This is done to make it look like I am following a man-made doctrine while my opponent follows God’s word. The Trinity needed time to be understood.

“What did Paul tell us?”

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:13 DRB)

The Trinity is mentioned in this passage. These aren’t just different roles.

Pro also continuously dodges questions I give by saying it’s a mystery or a side debate. It’s very problematic if you can’t explain these verses in any way at all.

Let’s get to some puzzles for pro:

Who is Jesus’ Father?

Why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit “another” helper if the Holy Spirit is just the Father and the Son?

This verse easily debunks the idea that Jesus is the Father:

Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. (John 8:54 DRB)

Pro is also just playing with words by saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father since the Father is a spirit and holy. Angels are spirits and holy. If you die and are holy, you are a spirit and holy. This does not make them the Father or the Holy Spirit.

Round 4

4 of 5

Mal

Pro #7

"The “plainness of speech” is saying not to make things more complex than they need to be. It’s not saying Scripture is plain and anyone can interpret it. If Scripure is plain, why are we even having this debate?"

It's because you're not understanding or misunderstanding what I've been saying continuing to talk pass me.

"That’s not the context. God the Father is one Father. Jesus can be described as a father, but not in the same way."

How many fathers we have?

Let's go with the question the scripture asked. Have we all not one father?

"Pro is trying to make modalism sound like it is from God. Pro will simply say it isn’t modalism. This is done to make it look like I am following a man-made doctrine while my opponent follows God’s word. The Trinity needed time to be understood."

You bearing false witness. The scripture is against that. I never stated the word "modalism" one time as being in any scripture.

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:13 DRB)

The Trinity is mentioned in this passage. These aren’t just different roles."

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."

I don't see the word "trinity" in this verse. You telling a lie. Be honest and say you read this verse and YOU CALL IT TRINITY.

Everything I say a verse says, you can actually read in the verse. That's how we know your interpretation versus what is actually according to the bible. According to as it is written.

"Pro also continuously dodges questions I give by saying it’s a mystery or a side debate. It’s very problematic if you can’t explain these verses in any way at all."

The bible teaches not to answer unto folly.

It would be absolutely foolish for anybody to come behind me showing one God one Father in scripture and that Father being holy and it's denied that the Father (God) is holy.

It would be absolutely foolish for a man to come behind and be in error concerning the Lord. The Holy Father God (spirit).

You have eyes and see not. The eyes of your understanding have to be opened up

"Pro also continuously dodges questions I give by saying it’s a mystery or a side debate. It’s very problematic if you can’t explain these verses in any way at all."

But I accept your concession.

"God the Father is Holy."

You just called the Father holy Spirit.

God(spirit) the Father is holy.

That's it. The debate is over.

"Let’s get to some puzzles for pro:

Who is Jesus’ Father?

Why does Jesus call the Holy Spirit “another” helper if the Holy Spirit is just the Father and the Son?

This verse easily debunks the idea that Jesus is the Father:

Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. (John 8:54 DRB)"

You're getting the debates mixed up. This isn't "Jesus is the Father" topic.

"Pro is also just playing with words by saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father since the Father is a spirit and holy. Angels are spirits and holy. If you die and are holy, you are a spirit and holy. This does not make them the Father or the Holy Spirit."

I'm just going to use the opposite side's words to testify against the opposing case.

"God the Father is Holy."

You just called the Father holy Spirit.

God(spirit) the Father is holy.

That's it. The debate is over.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #8

And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. (Matthew 23:9 DRB)

Jesus is on Earth, but He says no one on Earth shall be called Father. Is the Holy Spirit ever called Father?

Just look through the Bible and you can see “father” has many different meanings.

“But I accept your concession.”

Pro has basically admitted the questions I asked cannot be answered. Pro cannot make a logical theological view.

“I don't see the word "trinity" in this verse. You telling a lie. Be honest and say you read this verse and YOU CALL IT TRINITY.”

Trinity is part of development of doctrine. It’s part of logical steps being made. You are trying to make logical steps by saying “God is a Spririt and Holy” or “We only have one Father.” It’s all steps being made. There’s no verse that says the Holy Spirit is the Father directly and neither is there a direct Trinity one either.

“Everything I say a verse says, you can actually read in the verse. That's how we know your interpretation versus what is actually according to the bible. According to as it is written.”

Again, this is just a strategy to make it look like it’s me vs. the Bible. You base things on your own interpretation just as much as you claim I do.

“You just called the Father holy Spirit. God(spirit) the Father is holy. That's it. The debate is over.”

You’re just trying to smash words together to make your theology work.

I’ll just repeat my words again:

Pro is also just playing with words by saying that the Holy Spirit is the Father since the Father is a spirit and holy. Angels are spirits and holy. If you die and are holy, you are a spirit and holy. This does not make them the Father or the Holy Spirit.

“You're getting the debates mixed up. This isn't "Jesus is the Father" topic.”

I’m asking this question because I already know what your views are. If you don’t want to respond, that’s fine.

Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear. (Acts 2:33 DRB)

The Father promised to send to Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

Paul having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples. And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism. (Acts 19:1-3 DRB)

Paul doesn’t treat “Holy Spirit” as just another name for the Father. Neither do these disciples. The Holy Spirit is foreign to them and Paul knows that this means that have not received Christian Baptism.

In your opening statement you said:

I yield there and that was just old testament. I didn't even have to go to the new.

You believed you could prove that the Holy Spirit was the Father using only the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is a new concept to them. It’s true that it might be able to be found in the Old Testament looking back. Those who only had the Old Testament had no idea what the Holy Spirit was when they heard it. The Holy Spirit cannot be the Father.

Round 5

5 of 5

Mal

Pro #9

"Jesus is on Earth, but He says no one on Earth shall be called Father. Is the Holy Spirit ever called Father?"

No.

The Father is called holy and God is a spirit called the Father.

Do we finally get it?

Scripture says call no MAN your father.

Matthew

23:9

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"

Call no MAN. But the Father is Holy and is spirit according to the book of John.

"Pro has basically admitted the questions I asked cannot be answered. Pro cannot make a logical theological view."

Having eyes they see not.

Folks, no matter how many times I communicate this has nothing to do with logic, the opposite side just can't receive it. Let Alone theological.

I've given nothing but scriptural proof. Not theological but scriptural. As this is a scriptural debate.

The opposite side is prepared to argue logic in a scripture based topic. If you haven't been taught what scriptures to use, you should of stayed out of this.

So because the opposing side couldn't accept scripture, the opposing side was ready to argue with logic and logic has nothing to do with this .

Opposing side already conceded.

"Trinity is part of development of doctrine. It’s part of logical steps being made."

Logic is totally irrelevant again.

"You are trying to make logical steps by saying “God is a Spririt and Holy” or “We only have one Father.” It’s all steps being made. "

WRONG.

These are not "logical steps". It's called line upon line.

"There’s no verse that says the Holy Spirit is the Father directly and neither is there a direct Trinity one either."

Right , there's no verse that directly says the holy Spirit is the Father in one verse because it's SPREAD OUT in multiple verses. Again , line upon line according to the scripture.

In other words, one verse DIRECTLY SAYS "HOLY FATHER" . That's in the book of John. That's one line. There's another verse that DIRECTLY says "God is a spirit " in the book of John again. Another line. Also there's another verse that DIRECTLY, DIRECTLY, DIRECTLY says "God the Father" in the book of Corinthians.

That is the difference. These verses say these things directly......just spread out.

We find no verse or no line upon line verses anywhere that say "trinity" or "three persons " or one verse saying"the holy spirit is the third person " and for example " one person, the Father".

This is what you aren't realizing. It's either in one verse or spread out to harmonize the verses together to do what ? LINE UPON LINE.

So when you say " neither is there a direct Trinity one either.", you just admitted you don't have scripture to back this up.

I have scriptures.... keyword: scriptures -(line upon line - several lines, several scriptures), to back this up.

You harmonize the scripture here a little, there a little. You don't make "logical steps".

Where in the Bible does it say "make logical steps"?

See how far off bible order you go. Heart is far from the word. You are afar off.

"Logical steps" is your idea, isn't it ?

You're leaning on your own understanding with this "logical steps" rhetoric.

"Again, this is just a strategy to make it look like it’s me vs. the Bible. You base things on your own interpretation just as much as you claim I do."

It's a strategy of the truth. How else do we know the Bible says something if it doesn't specifically say it?

If you say something you say the Bible does not read, do we read what you've said or not ?

You better be honest and say no. If you reject this, you reject the scripture that says "according to as it is written". It does not say "according to your interpretation".

You're just not being honest. I'm giving you scripture as it is written and repeating it in my talking points and you call it my interpretation.

Let me speak as the oracles of God . The oracles of God are not my interpretation. They're the oracles of God.

You fighting scripture thinking you're fighting me because you can't let go of that trinity doctrine. Scripture say "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits".

You rather hang on to the falsehood and we know it is because it's not written. This is an excellent test to know the spirit of error and the spirit of truth and we can't use interpretations as an excuse or something to hide behind.

They speak thus sayeth the Lord where Lord have not said.

You remain in your position but as the scripture say " it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks". It's going to be hard for you.

"You’re just trying to smash words together to make your theology work.

I’ll just repeat my words again:

Stop kicking against the pricks and say amen. Stop using logic and stop saying the Father is not holy and not spirit.

"Paul doesn’t treat “Holy Spirit” as just another name for the Father. Neither do these disciples. The Holy Spirit is foreign to them and Paul knows that this means that have not received Christian Baptism."

Let's get what Paul said, if not mistaken, let's go to the book of first Corinthians 6 and we start at verse :

"19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

Temple of the HOLY GHOST.

If you admit there is only one, why are you separating into two?

That trinity doctrine has you falling back in error making one not the other as the scripture teaches these are one.

Let's LINE THIS UP. In the second book of Corinthians 6, starting at verse:

"16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

So the "I" is God. You can't blame it on my interpretation. I'm not changing anything up. I'm giving just as it says . "I will be their God".

So this is talking about God. I dare the opposing side to say it's not and kick again . Temple of GOD. TEMPLE OF GOD. GOD .

Notice ....GOD.....just one D , one God.

Don't add and say it's another person or spirit.

"17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

Come out from the trinitarians and those that deny the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT being a Father .

"18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

So this is the Lord Almighty. If you say this is not Father God, now you have to get scripture that teaches we have two or more than one Lord ALMIGHTY.

Scripture say "O LORD God Almighty, who is like you, O LORD? You are mighty".

"The Holy Spirit cannot be the Father."

What did verse 18 say?