Resolved: That the President of the United States should be elected by the direct vote of the people.

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After 3 votes (0 ties) — 3 points ahead

Burden of proof

Pro

Pro has the majority of the burden in this debate. Pro must prove that we should substantially altar the norms of our elections and switch to a direct election. Con must, at minimum, prove that an electoral college in some form is better than direct election.

Definitions

Elected
choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
Direct electon
a system of choosing political officeholders in which the voters directly cast ballots for the persons or political party that they want to see elected.
The United States is unique among democratic nations in that we elect the President indirectly through an electoral college. According to Article II, Section I, Clause 3 of the Constitution: The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. In theory the electoral college would level the playing field between large states and smaller states; however, in practice most states are solidly red or blue and only a handful of states are "swing" states. The result is that those "swing" states often have bigger influence than other safe states. In addition to this, one does not have to win the popular vote to become President. In 2000 and 2016 the person who won the Presidency lost the popular vote. The proposed topic is whether or not we should abolish the electoral college and switch to a directly elected system or keep the system in place.

Round 1

1 of 3
avatar
Leaning Global Moderator
Pro #1

IDENTITY

"In 2020, 58 percent of Americans lived in the state that they were born in,"

https://welcomelawfirm.com/faqs/where-are-americans-born-analysis-of-us-census-data-from-1850-2020/#:~:text=In%202020%2C%2058%20percent%20of,English


Imagine how this has repeated since America's founding,

Consider the American Civil War, which resulted in a great loss of power and identity of individual states for Americans.

We do not brainwash and force our children to pledge allegiance to their state, but their country.


States have frequently flipped on what party they have voted for in the short time America has been a country.

It is not the 'state identity, but the 'American identity that matters for president, The 'one government official that every American together vote on.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2020/11/animated-map-u-s-presidential-voting-history-by-state-1976-2016


'Every state is in degrees a purple state,

Republicans and Democrats, living together in every state. Neighbors.

The states are not enclaves of a single identity.

It is the 'American Identity, not the State Identity.


ORIGINAL PURPOSE and TECHNOLOGY

Electors, individuals able to vote against what the popular vote tells them.


"As of the 2020 election, there have been a total of 165[3][4] instances of faithlessness"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector


This I argue is a betrayal of the people's will.

Something perhaps understandable in older times when so many people in the world tended to be illiterate.

When news and information was more limited.

But we are now in the digital age, people are literate and informed of events and history.

Though even in 1776, perhaps the electoral college for president should not have been.

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2022/09/reading-writing-global-literacy-rate-changed/#:~:text=According%20to%20data%20compiled%20by,still%20barely%20exceeded%2020%20percent.


"In other U.S. elections, candidates are elected directly by popular vote. But the president and vice president are not elected directly by citizens. Instead, they are chosen through the Electoral College process."

https://www.usa.gov/electoral-college#:~:text=In%20other%20U.S.%20elections%2C%20candidates,electors%20comes%20from%20the%20Constitution.


Locals knew their local politicians better than they knew other state politicians or presidential candidates.

In our modern age, every American have gluts of information of less local politicians.


We do not need any in between elector deciding they know better than us as individuals.

The popular will of the people is Not a Suggestion.


THE WHOLE

Returning to identity,

If we are Americans more than Oregonians or Texans,

Then our voices should hold by majority of our population.

Not let politicians gerrymander the population divide and undercut their voices.


The president should not have to focus on swing states and their local issues, but to the American people as a whole, and national issues.


INEQUALITY

"In 1812, slave states had 76 seats out of 143 instead of the 59 they would have had; in 1833, 98 seats out of 240, instead of 73. As a result, Southern states had additional influence on the presidency"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-fifths_Compromise#:~:text=A%20compromise%20was%20struck%20to,relative%20to%20the%20Northern%20states.


Returning again to identity, the political populations of America are mixed and living side by side,

A state can have 51% - 49% vote for president, yet out of that can come an unequal number of electoral votes for one party over the other.

This does not accurately represent the will of the American people as a whole.


"Twenty states are overrepresented in the Electoral College by more than one vote, based on population. Texas is underrepresented by nine votes."

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/electoral-college-states-representation


The Electoral College traps us into a divisive system of two party politics, giving Americans only a binary choice of no nuance.


"Southern favorite Wallace actually captured 46 electoral votes. Yet the electoral college still deflated his challenge. Although he had received nearly 14 percent of the popular vote, he got only eight percent of the electoral vote. Some 4.1 million Wallace votes cast outside the states he carried were “wasted.”

https://www.aei.org/articles/third-party-candidates-face-a-high-hurdle-in-the-electoral-college

avatar
Savant Administrator
Con #2

Topical Analysis:

Direct Election

Because the constitution specifies the electoral college as the method for selecting the president, switching to a direct election (i.e. the “popular vote”) would require a constitutional amendment with ratification by 38 of 50 states.


Proposed Counterplan

The description requires that I must defend “an electoral college in some form.” Hence, I propose the following counterplan: states implement proportional elector allocation, similarly to the split elector system Nebraska currently has, but proportional to population. Further, states should nullify the votes of faithless electors, as Colorado has done. Getting the majority of states to do this, or even all of them, is much more feasible than a constitutional amendment and less likely to lead to political backlash, since some states have already made reforms along these lines.



Framework:

In Baron de Montesquieu’s widely-lauded political treatise The Spirit of the Laws, Montesquieu argues that a government’s laws and structures must be designed with the society’s political structure and cultural context in mind. For example, a policy that works for a small, homogenous city-state may be counterproductive when applied to a large, heterogeneous republic.

For a country as culturally diverse as the United States, I propose a framework that takes this cultural context into account. The question that should underpin this debate is this: Does switching to a direct voting system risk undermining the spirit of the republic—that is, the principles and stability of the United States?


Accommodation

Montesquieu states that a just government must accommodate the diverse “general spirit, morals, and customs” of its people, so that people’s minds can be “prepared for the reception of the best laws” (Book XIX). True to Montesquieu’s point, governments imposed from above that are incompatible with the culture of the people are prone to collapse—consider the U.S. intervention in Iraq, when imposing a Western-style democracy on a society with deep-seated tribal divisions proved to be ineffectual.


Moderation

Montesquieu states that “political liberty is to be found only in moderate governments” (Book XI), and that tyranny is “sure to be felt whenever those who govern establish things shocking to the existing ideas of a nation” (Book XIX). Consider the National Prohibition Act, which prohibited alcoholic drinks in the United States. Because the act was so drastic and polarizing, it was poorly enforced and led to black markets run by criminal gangs, undermining the rule of law and the contract between the government and the governed.


Decentralized Power

Montesquieu argues that “power should be a check to power” and that “were [the judiciary power] joined with the legislative, the life and liberty of the subject would be exposed to arbitrary control…were it joined to the executive power, the judge might behave with violence and oppression” (Book XI). If undue control is given to a single group or individual, this creates a great risk of corruption. Consider the South Korean Impeachment Crisis, in which a single executive declared martial law in South Korea in a bid for unchecked power, and the full strength of the legislative branch was required to repeal this declaration.



Burdens:

Because Pro’s plan requires radically altering the structure of our elections and the constitution itself, they hold the greater burden in this debate. I argue that Pro’s proposal must pass all of these tests—accommodation, moderation, and decentralized power—for us to consider it worthwhile. Think of these as three pillars supporting the republic, where the collapse of one undermines the entire structure. If a radical alteration to the constitution fails to accommodate the diverse factions in America, such a change fails the duty of government to serve the common good and cannot justify its existence. Similarly, if such a change disrupts moderation or decentralized power, it can lead to an inevitable vicious circle in which warring factions cling to increased power and undermine the common good.



1. Accommodation of Diverse Factions:

Over four-fifths of the US population resides in urban areas. Rural areas have often been written off by the media as irrelevant “fly-over country,” but they are granted greater representation by the electoral college than they would have under a popular vote system. Under a direct voting system, politicians could ignore the needs of rural, agricultural communities and prioritize urban interests, leading to policies that harm the very people who feed Americans.


Case Study: California

The state government of California uses a popular vote system, which means that interests from agricultural areas in the Central Valley are frequently ignored in favor of interests from the more populous city regions. For example, Proposition 1A, which allocated funds for the California High-Speed Rail Authority, passed with a slim majority. The rail line would have connected San Francisco to Los Angeles but failed to accommodate the Central Valley, leading to intense legal battles and the government used eminent domain to snatch land from homes, ranches, farms and businesses in the Central Valley. Today, the High-Speed Rail Project is widely seen as an inefficient, overexpensive failure.



2. Preferring Moderation to Drastic Political Measures:

Precedent of Electoral College

The electoral college has stood the test of time, scaling from 10 states in 1788 to 50 states today. That’s a 237 year timespan, 37 years longer than the average lifespan of democracies. This is a big sign that the current system is doing something right in keeping the republic stable and should not be thrown out. Radically altering the system now would be an extreme, immoderate measure.


Partisan Divide

Abolishing the electoral college is a strongly partisan issue, with significantly greater opposition from Republicans than from Democrats. Recent attempts to abolish the electoral college in 2016 and 2024 came entirely from Democrats, shortly after a Republican won the presidential election. As of late, Americans increasingly see the country as more divided than at any time since the Civil War. Switching to a popular vote system will inevitably be seen as one party “changing the rules” to win more elections.



3. Maintaining a Decentralized Delimitation of Power:

Unfeasibility of Decentralized Popular Vote System

A popular vote system would require a single national voting standard under a single organization. To see why, consider the Bush v. Gore election. When Florida was too close to call in the 2000 election, this led to an expensive, contentious recount. Under a popular vote system with no central voting standard, candidates would demand recounts in every state when an election was too close to call, multiplying the cost and complexity by 50.


Consequences of A Central Voting Authority

However, despite being required for a direct voting model, a single voting authority would come with a whole slew of unacceptable consequences. Both parties have made serious allegations of election tampering, and giving the federal government unilateral control over handling vote counting, trusting the rules and execution entirely to the executive branch and the final single adjudication entirely to the Supreme Court, would undermine trust and legitimacy in our highly partisan society and eliminate state checks on government power—as Montesquieu argues, “every man invested with power is apt to abuse it” (Book XI).



Rebuttals:

“States have frequently flipped on what party they have voted for…It is not the 'state identity, but the 'American identity that matters for president…Twenty states are overrepresented in the Electoral College by more than one vote, based on population. Texas is underrepresented by nine votes.”

I disagree that a simple majority is effective at capturing “American identity” in a diverse society with heterogenous interests. The wisdom of crowds is only effective when the crowd holds diverse, independent opinions. The interests of farmers and those in agricultural areas should hold significant weight and not be ignored, even if they are a minority of the country.


“The president should not have to focus on swing states and their local issues, but to the American people as a whole, and national issues…A state can have 51% - 49% vote for president, yet out of that can come an unequal number of electoral votes for one party over the other.”

My counterplan addresses this. Ending the winner-take-all system would force politicians to focus on all states. A popular vote system would do the opposite, allowing candidates to focus solely on urban areas and ignore the needs of farmers, as I addressed under “Accommodation of Diverse Factions.”


“As of the 2020 election, there have been a total of 165[3][4] instances of faithlessness”

Faithless electors are addressed by my counterplan, by having states nullify their votes.


“In 1812, slave states had 76 seats out of 143 instead of the 59 they would have had; in 1833, 98 seats out of 240, instead of 73. As a result, Southern states had additional influence on the presidency”

No longer relevant, since the three-fifths compromise has been abolished.


“The Electoral College traps us into a divisive system of two party politics…Southern favorite Wallace actually captured 46 electoral votes…Although he had received nearly 14 percent of the popular vote, he got only eight percent of the electoral vote. Some 4.1 million Wallace votes cast outside the states he carried were “wasted.”

Wallace doing poorly is a good thing—he was a pro-segregation candidate who strongly supported racist “Jim Crow” policies. Abraham Lincoln, who freed the slaves, failed to win a majority of the popular vote, but won a comfortable majority of the electoral college. These impacts all turn against Pro.

Round 2

2 of 3
avatar
Leaning Global Moderator
Pro #3

REBUTTALS


We've amended the Constitution before.


I'm not sure I understand what,

PROPORTIONAL ELECTORAL ALLOCATION is?

I think I understand if a state has 10 officials, and vote is split 3 vs 7,

They place 3 and 7 officials of each type.

But there is only one President of the United States.

. . If it means 10 electors, and split it 3 and 7.

This seems much the same as a direct vote?


COLORADO LAW, FAITHLESS ELECTOR

"In Colorado, however, Baca sued in federal court, and the case eventually reached the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver, which ruled that electors can vote for any legitimate candidate."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/faithless-elector-betrayed-his-state-s-voters-you-won-t-n1120551


Proposed Counterplan

"Does switching to a direct voting system risk undermining the spirit of the republic—that is, the principles and stability of the United States?"

No. Many argue America is all about the individual, their voice, and freedom mattering.

We 'say Republic, but what became of the States after technology and the Civil War?

We are 'Americans, more than our various State identities.


America doesn't really 'have tribes so much as regions and parties.

And those regions are often of mixed parties.

Regions still control local government,

But when speaking of national ideas, every person ought have 'some say.


"Colorado’s 10 presidential electors met at the state Capitol Tuesday to cast their votes for 2024 Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris, who won 54.2% of Colorado’s votes.

Republican President-elect Donald Trump won 43.2% of the vote. This was the first presidential election where Colorado had 10 electoral votes, after the state earned an eighth seat in Congress following the 2020 census. "

https://www.debatecraft.com/debates/d/3t/resolved-that-the-president-of-the-united-states-should-be-elected-by-the-direct-vote-of-the-people


Why didn't Trump get 4 Electoral votes from Colorado?

Sounds to me as though that 43% of Colorado voters didn't get a voice on the national stage in the end.


MODERATION

What is 'Moderate about disfranchising the voters by unequal votes? And winner take all votes?


DECENTRALIZED POWER

States would 'still be in charge of tallying up all the votes, thus the process would be decentralized.


ACOMMODATION, MODERATION, AND DECENTRALIZED POWER

Accommodation is addressed by the people as a 'whole being appealed to, not just swing state votes,

And not the 51% majority of various states, but the people as a 'whole.

Moderation 'again by addressing the majority, not the minority.

Decentralized Power I'm not advocating for the removal of state regional control. Just that in an election for the President, the 'one official who ought be elected by 'all the people. 'Be elected by all the people.


RURAL

20% of the population is still significant, if anything they would gain greater power,

After all 20% of 1/50th is less that 1/5.


TEST OF TIME

The Electoral College has outlived it's purpose.

We're roughly all educated and informed of current and relevant events.

We don't need some 'electors telling us what's best for us.


PARTISAN DIVIDE

Why should we let gerrymandering and the idea of appeal to a minority of voters stop us?

America ran on ideas of democracy and representation, disfranchising the people by not letting their votes matter, is not freedom.


SINGLE NATIONAL VOTING STANDARD

All the states have to do is report how many people voted for which candidate, then have that applied in the presidential election.

They can handle the details of 'how locally.


We 'already address the worse cases of electoral tampering when need be.

And that's 'all we need to do, we don't need to control 'everything in a state to have direct voting.


. . .


ARGUEMENTS MINE


SIMPLE MAJORITY, we get diversity in the officials elected for each particular state.

And we get diversity by the President appealing to everyone, not swing states.


WINNER TAKE ALL,

I'm not sure I understand what,

PROPORTIONAL ELECTORAL ALLOCATION is?


FAITHLESS ELECTORS,

"In Colorado, however, Baca sued in federal court, and the case eventually reached the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver, which ruled that electors can vote for any legitimate candidate."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/faithless-elector-betrayed-his-state-s-voters-you-won-t-n1120551

If the courts let the electors vote as they like, we can do without the electors.


THREE FIFTHS COMPROMISE

'Continues to be felt today, in related court cases and laws such as my vote mattering less than a rural voter.

One person, one vote say I. What could be more fair than that?

https://constitution.laws.com/three-fifths-compromise


WALLACE

It doesn't matter if Wallace was a bad person according to some people today.

What matters is that the people as a whole have their values heard.

How does reserving power to a small elite sound American at all?

Where's the Freedom in that?

Give the people power, and society always get's what they deserve.

As good 'or corrupt as the people may be.

Give some minority of people power, and the people's voice get's lost.

Take gerrymandering for instance, politicians ignoring the people, why should we ignore their thieving of our voices and power?


GERRYMANDERING

What chance do we have at getting away from Bipartisen politics, when we only have two major parties, and they keep moving the voting districts around so only two parties are an option?

avatar
Savant Administrator
Con #4

Topical Analysis:

Direct Election

Pro says that we’ve amended the Constitution before, which is true. However, it is still a very significant decision, requiring ratification by 38 of 50 states. It is not something that should be taken lightly—if it proves to be a terrible mistake, it will be just as difficult to change it back.


“I'm not sure I understand what proportional elector allocation is”

Let’s say we have a state with 10 electoral votes. We would take the percentage of votes for each candidate and round to the nearest elector. So if Candidate A got 72% of the vote and Candidate B got 28%, Candidate A would get 7 electoral votes and B would get 3 electoral votes.


“In Colorado, however, Baca sued in federal court, and the case eventually reached the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver, which ruled that electors can vote for any legitimate candidate”

This decision was overturned by the Supreme Court, which ruled unanimously that states may enforce laws to punish faithless electors, ruling in favor of the state that nullified Baca’s vote. Hence, my proposal to nullify the votes of faithless electors remains feasible.


“Why didn't Trump get 4 Electoral votes from Colorado?”

Because Colorado did not implement proportional elector allocation. Under my counterplan, they would implement proportional elector allocation.



Framework:

As I stated in R1, the question that should underpin this debate is this: Does switching to a direct voting system risk undermining the spirit of the republic—that is, the principles and stability of the United States? Pro does not dispute that this question should underpin the debate or provide an alternative framework. Nor does he dispute that accommodation, moderation, and decentralization should be used to test direct voting against this framework. Hence, voters should use my proposed value and criteria.



Burdens:

Pro does not dispute that failing a single one of these three tests (accommodation, moderation, and decentralization) should be enough to reject direct voting. Hence, if voters feel that I have won on even a single one of these points, that is enough to warrant a Con vote.



1. Accommodation of Diverse Factions:

Extend my points about most Americans living in urban areas and agricultural interests being overlooked under simple majority rule (with California as an example). Pro has dropped all these points. 


“Accommodation is addressed by the people as a 'whole being appealed to, not just swing state votes…And not the 51% majority of various states, but the people as a 'whole.”

As I explained, my counterplan addresses this by having states replace winner-take-all with proportional elector allocation. Politicians will have to appeal to people in all states, not just swing states.



2. Preferring Moderation to Drastic Political Measures:

Extend my points about the electoral college being a strongly partisan issue, and that it will inevitably be seen as one party “changing the rules” to win more elections.


“What is 'Moderate about disfranchising the voters by unequal votes?...The Electoral College has outlived it's purpose…What is 'Moderate about…winner take all votes?...We don't need some 'electors telling us what's best for us.”

I will address these later under rebuttals. However, these points are not relevant to the moderation criterion under my framework, even though Pro puts them in this section. Montesquieu’s moderation criterion is about “things shocking to the existing ideas of a nation” (Book XIX). Since the electoral college has been used and accepted from 10 states in 1788 to 50 states today, and Americans have grown up with it, it is not shocking to the existing ideas of the nation. Only radical new proposals (such as a constitutional amendment that will inevitably be seen as a power grab by a particular party), can fail the test of moderation.


Pro does not dispute Montesquieu’s definition or dispute that said criterion should be used to judge this debate against my proposed framework, so voters should consider these points irrelevant when evaluating Pro’s proposal under the moderation criterion.




3. Maintaining a Decentralized Delimitation of Power:

“gerrymandering”

My proposal isn’t gerrymandering, because one party isn’t given unilateral control to draw up state borders however it pleases.


“Why should we let [the idea of appeal to a minority of voters] stop us?”

Because the goal is to balance power between the minority and majority to meet their basic needs and not ignore the needs of one group simply because it has fewer members. Pro states that “America ran on ideas of democracy and representation, disfranchising the people by not letting their votes matter, is not freedom.” I agree. That’s why the voice of the minority should matter and should not be trampled on by the majority. The electoral college forces them to compromise.


“All the states have to do is report how many people voted for which candidate, then have that applied in the presidential election. They can handle the details of 'how locally.”

As I said in R1, recall the Bush v. Gore election. When Florida was too close to call in the 2000 election, this led to an expensive, contentious recount. Under a popular vote system with no central voting standard, candidates would demand recounts in every state when an election was too close to call, multiplying the cost and complexity by 50. Pro does not dispute this.


At this level of complexity, there would not be time to find conclusive evidence favoring one politician over another, or for either campaign to invest the resources in legal cases across 50 states to make sure all recounts are handled properly. With so many recounts, many cases would eventually make it to the Supreme Court, and the justices could select the most ambiguous, disputed cases as justifications for assigning whatever winner they want while maintaining plausible deniability. A growing number of judges have criticized the Supreme Court. Hence, Pro’s proposal would inevitably centralize power in the hands of a controversial authority and give them unilateral power to decide the president.


Meanwhile, my counterplan would not have such a drastic issue, as recounts could only be demanded if vote totals in a particular state were close enough to the cutoff for assigning an additional elector (since my plan involves rounding to the nearest elector).




Rebuttals:

“What is 'Moderate about disfranchising the voters by unequal votes?”

As I have argued, we should strive to balance power more equally among factions rather than exactly equally among all individuals. One vote by itself will not guarantee a voice is heard—if individuals want the government to care about their interests, they need their voting “faction” (people with similar concerns) to have significant representation.


“What is 'Moderate about…winner take all votes?”

As I explained, my counterplan addresses this by having states replace winner-take-all with proportional elector allocation.


“The Electoral College has outlived it's purpose…We're roughly all educated and informed of current and relevant events.

The advantage of the electoral college that I am advocating isn’t compensating for people being uneducated or uninformed. The advantage of the electoral college is that it gives a voice to smaller states and groups that would otherwise be overlooked, such as people living in agricultural areas.


“We don't need some 'electors telling us what's best for us.”

As I explained, my counterplan addresses this by having states nullify the votes of faithless electors.


“Three fifths compromise…'Continues to be felt today, in related court cases and laws such as my vote mattering less than a rural voter.”

That’s not what the three-fifths compromise is. The three fifths compromise was used to determine how slaves were counted as part of a state’s population. The concept of states having electoral votes based on population existed as a broader concept anyway, regardless of how slaves were counted.


“It doesn't matter if Wallace was a bad person according to some people today. What matters is that the people as a whole have their values heard.”

Wallace’s presidency would have silenced the voices of minority groups through racist policies, such as supporting segregation. If you want everyone to have their voices heard, you should be glad that the electoral college harmed Wallace’s campaign.


“Give the people power, and society always get's what they deserve”

The minority groups that Wallace would have harmed did not deserve to have him ruling over them and implementing racist policies.


“What chance do we have at getting away from Bipartisen politics, when we only have two major parties, and they keep moving the voting districts around so only two parties are an option?”

As shown with George Wallace, the electoral college and its preservation of major parties is a necessary measure to prevent fringe, extremist candidates from taking power. The United States would have been worse off with Wallace in power, as he would have put more institutional power behind segregation and racist policies. Hence, bipartisan politics and the electoral college are a positive, not a negative.

Round 3

3 of 3
avatar
Leaning Global Moderator
Pro #5

RESPONSES

As Savant says, we've changed the constitution before.

If it's unwanted, it won't pass.

And on the off chance it passes, if it's unwanted, it'll be passed back.

High barrier to change the law just means most of the people need be on board.

And with the people having a more direct vote, the people will be able to enforce their will for such.


PROPORTIONAL ELECTOR ALLOCATION

Alright, I understand it better now.

But it still doesn't solve the issue of some states peoples having more or less of a vote than others.


In round 1 Savant says,

"The description requires that I must defend “an electoral college in some form.”

They also say,

"Over four-fifths of the US population resides in urban areas. Rural areas have often been written off by the media as irrelevant “fly-over country,” but they are granted greater representation by the electoral college than they would have under a popular vote system. Under a direct voting system, politicians could ignore the needs of rural, agricultural communities and prioritize urban interests, leading to policies that harm the very people who feed Americans."


How does their PROPORTIONAL ELECTOR ALLOCATION empower the rural areas?

There's cities in all states, even some rural areas.

It's either going to result in the cities in the states sweeping most of the electoral votes anyhow. As each rural area is going to likely have 'some city.

Or if the state divides itself into districts 'specifically for underpopulated rural areas, give the rural areas absurdly even more power.


"Defeat in detail, or divide and conquer, is a military tactic of bringing a large portion of one's own force to bear on small enemy units in sequence, rather than engaging the bulk of the enemy force all at once. This exposes one's own units to many small risks but allows for the eventual destruction of an entire enemy force."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail


I argue Savant's solution just results in a bunch of sidestepping and maneuvers, gerrymandering and district setting.

The clear and 'simple solution is one person one vote.

That's fair, clear, and gives 'every person a voice on the national stage. As much of America as they statistically represent, they are voted.

No in between electors or tricks about it.


FRAMEWORK

I dispute there is any 'one framework.

The framework I'm mainly working on is the American appreciation of Democracy, Representation, and Knowledge.


We included votes when we founded the nation because we 'wanted freedom,

We had electors because people were often busy or isolated, didn't have the tech to know or communicate all the time. Now we do.

We've 'consistently fought social movements for giving people the right to vote, for the people's ability to not be obstructed by electors.

This seems a pretty direct voting system the more we develop it, why not go all in?


BURDENS

I dispute that failing any of 'their three tests should be understood as agreement.

Why must Savant take silence as consent?

I take these as points of discussion, not tests of qualification.


STABILITY

'Is a point of interest, but America could be 'stable while a small upper class of elite political parties control the votes, the money, and society.

Societies should be controlled by those who live in it.


I'm not even asking that much, just that this 'one official, in charge of 'all the states, get's elected by the people as a whole.

States are 'still going to have their local government.


ACCOMODATIONS OF DIVERSE FACTORS

I repeat my arguments of either Overrepresentation or Defeat in Detail,


Either absurd gerrymander districts are made that give absurdly more voting power to some Americans than others, or


"Defeat in detail, or divide and conquer, is a military tactic of bringing a large portion of one's own force to bear on small enemy units in sequence, rather than engaging the bulk of the enemy force all at once. This exposes one's own units to many small risks but allows for the eventual destruction of an entire enemy force."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail

Savant's electoral methods and divisions allows every small group to be defeated twice, once locally in state, then on the national stage.

To have their voice heard, there is only the direct vote.


MODERATE POLITICAL MEASURES

The parties are 'always passing laws such as having to pass a test, (Jim Crow)

Or Gerrymandering districts (Modern lawmakers)

Even Savants suggestion of ELECTORAL ALLOCATION can be claimed to be partisan.

You know what 'isn't partisan?

The American people as a whole. No restrictions, no parties in between our votes.

Just one person, one vote.


DECENTRALIZED

What's more decentralized than one person one vote, none of this giving more votes to one person than another.

None of this your vote won't get counted in the electoral system because your neighbors outnumber you.

Decentralized is one person, one vote.

Let the states regulate their local counts, we don't need the feds in 'every state controlling it all. So 'long as the states follow one person, one vote.


MINORITY

If one person in a thousand wants pineapple on the pizza, we don't need pineapple on 'every pizza, just 1/1000 of the pizza ordered.

That's their needs met.

Give them 'more power, and you get some absurd 100th of the pizza with pineapple.


RECOUNT

Why must a nationwide recount take place,

If a state has 10 electoral votes,

If a state has a million people,

Same difference, even in a direct vote, you'd still be able to just ask for a recount in a single state.

Because 'again, I've not argued for the feds to be a single amorphous blob controlling voting, just that we have direct voting, the states can still handle it.

States I'm sure are still going to have sperate districts for voting and counting, it's just that in the 'end, it will be one person, one vote.


My Earlier Rebuttals

There's balance between factions at the state level and their representatives, I'm not asking for direct votes for 'every official. Just this 'one over us all.


Locally, there are still going to be winner take all's.

The only way people get their voice heard, is a single nation wide direct vote.

One person, one vote.


3/5ths Compromise

Effected later laws, and as we see some Americans get more votes than others, we see how our system devalues and disfranchises portions of the population, just based on where they live geographically.


"Contemporary Relevance:

1. Voting Rights and Gerrymandering:

The 3/5ths Compromise serves as a historical benchmark for understanding the trajectory of voting rights in the United States and the ongoing struggle for inclusive and equal access to the ballot box. The disproportionate representation and political power allotted to slaveholding states perpetuated systemic disenfranchisement of African Americans throughout history. Even today, allegations of voter suppression and racially motivated gerrymandering persist, necessitating continued efforts to safeguard and expand democratic participation.


2. Equality and Civil Rights:

The 3/5ths Compromise highlights the battle for equality and civil rights in America, transcending its original context to inspire important social movements. The Civil Rights Movement of the 20th century echoed the struggles of marginalized communities, challenging the systemic racism embedded within the country’s legal and social structures. By recognizing the enduring impact of the 3/5ths Compromise, society remains vigilant in working towards dismantling structural inequalities, promoting inclusivity, and advancing civil rights for all."

https://constitution.laws.com/three-fifths-compromise


WALLACE

Supporting Segregation doesn't 'silence people, it just allows people to not be forced to amalgamate.

People would still have the ability to speak out against segregation, the American Right to Free Speech.

People would still have ended up being 'able to amalgamate.

But they would not have been 'forced to amalgamate.

Not 'everyone 'wants to.


Take Ireland and the UK.


The people as a whole would have gotten what they asked for 'if Wallace had enough support to win.

Which he 'didn't.

Even by direct voting, he wouldn't have won.

What 'matters is that our current system forces us under the thumbs of this two party system we have. As 'they elect the candidates that 'they like best. Giving us little to no option of one of our own choosing.

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Savant Administrator
Con #6

Topical Analysis:

“If it's unwanted, it won't pass…And on the off chance it passes, if it's unwanted, it'll be passed back.”

Pro cannot stipulate that the political climate suddenly changes to make his policy more popular. That’s wishful thinking. Lawmakers pass unpopular policies all the time. And even if the initial amendment is very unpopular, that in no way guarantees it will be reversed. Reversing the amendment would require a new amendment and a vast supermajority of states (38 of 50 just to ratify it, as I’ve mentioned repeatedly).


“How does their PROPORTIONAL ELECTOR ALLOCATION empower the rural areas?”

Proportional elector allocation is meant to give a voice to non-swing states. Rural areas are already empowered under the Electoral College (per the source I cited in R1), because small states in rural areas are given increased representation under the Electoral College compared to a popular vote, preventing tyranny of the majority.


“there are still going to be winner take all”

Not under my counterplan, in which states implement proportional elector allocation. As I said in R1 (undisputed by Pro), all states implementing this is still more feasible than Pro’s proposed constitutional amendment, since some states have already implemented reforms along these lines. Basically, we’ve already seen split electors play out successfully in practice.



Framework/Burdens:

It is generally accepted in formal debate that dropped arguments should be seen as true in the eyes of judges. If Pro isn’t going to participate in a discussion on some point, voters should consider the only arguments left on the table—mine.


Has Pro provided a feasible alternative to my framework?

No. Pro claims that he is arguing based on “Democracy, Representation, and Knowledge,” but that proposed alternative comes in the final round and should not be considered by voters. Furthermore, Pro does not justify why these criteria are the most important, nor does he counter the justifications I provided for my framework back in R1 (Baron de Montesquieu’s widely-lauded political treatise, and the examples of Iraq, Prohibition, and South Korea). Pro also fails to attach a weighting mechanism to his framework (i.e. how many criteria does he need to lose on to lose the debate?) which means that even if he had defended these criteria sufficiently, they cannot be used to determine the debate outcome.


Has Pro provided a feasible alternative to the burdens I provided in R1?

No. Pro has not challenged my analogy of “three pillars supporting the republic, where the collapse of one undermines the entire structure.” Hence, voters should hold Pro’s popular vote proposal to the standard I suggested in R1, where it must pass all three tests (accommodation, moderation, and decentralization) to be considered worthwhile.



1. Accommodation of Diverse Factions:

Does a direct vote pass this requirement?

No. Rural areas are overlooked under a simple popular vote, as in the case of California’s inefficient, overexpensive high-speed rail project that ignored the Central Valley. Pro contends that “there's cities in all states, even some rural areas,” but urban areas are not distributed evenly among small-population and large-population states. The smallest states by population (those given a voice by the Electoral College, like Mississippi, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and the Dakotas) are generally more rural, since urban areas are densely-packed high population centers that significantly shift the state population. I provided a source in R1 explaining that rural voters are granted greater representation under the Electoral College. Pro does not provide an alternative source or a reason to doubt mine. Hence, a direct vote fails to accommodate the diverse “general spirit, morals, and customs” of the American people by failing the people who grow our crops—a significant but often overlooked group. Pro claims that “one person in a thousand wants pineapple on the pizza, we don't need pineapple on 'every pizza,”—sure, but under direct voting, if 80% of the population doesn’t like pineapple on pizza, they can outvote the minority and ensure there is no pineapple on any pizza.


Are Pro’s arguments relevant to this criterion?

No. Pro does not attach any supporting evidence or impacts to his claims of gerrymandering, or a justification for why one-person, one-vote is more effective in accommodating the diverse “general spirit, morals, and customs” of the American people.



2. Preferring Moderation to Drastic Political Measures:

Does a direct vote pass this requirement?

No. Pro claims, without justification, that one-person one-vote is not partisan. However, I pointed out in R1 that the Electoral College is a strongly partisan issue, with significantly greater opposition from Republicans than from Democrats. Again, recent attempts to abolish the Electoral College in 2016 and 2024 came entirely from Democrats, shortly after a Republican won the presidential election. These sources all went undisputed by Pro.


Are Pro’s arguments relevant to this criterion?

No. Pro does not give any justification to his claim that proportional electoral allocation is partisan. And since this would be implemented independently by each state, it would not be “shocking to the existing ideas of a nation,” especially when each state already decides how to allocate its electors and already implement split elector systems in some cases. Pro’s claims about gerrymandering are irrelevant, since proportional elector allocation under my counterplan would preclude gerrymandering, as it does not divide votes by district. Furthermore, Pro has already stated that “I've not argued for the feds to be a single amorphous blob controlling voting…the states can still handle it,” which means that a direct vote would not prevent states from disenfranchising voters with policies akin to literacy tests. Hence, the points Pro brings up here fail to establish his plan as moderate.



3. Maintaining a Decentralized Delimitation of Power:

Does a direct vote pass this requirement?

No. Pro claims that each state would handle recounts independently and there would be no need for a nationwide recount, but under a direct voting system, if one candidate is a few thousand votes short of winning the election, they would just need a few thousand additional votes, and they wouldn’t care where they get those votes. Hence, they would demand a recount anywhere they could get a few more votes—that is, in every state. Pro drops all of my arguments that a direct vote would lead to power being centralized in a Supreme Court which has been widely criticized. Again, recounts in 50 states would lead to 50 times the cost and complexity of the expensive, contentious recount in the 2000 election. There would not be time to find conclusive evidence favoring one politician over another, and the justices could select the most ambiguous, disputed cases as justifications for assigning whatever winner they want while maintaining plausible deniability.


Are Pro’s arguments relevant to this criterion?

No. Pro’s arguments about “one person one vote” decentralizing power in an ideal world fail to address how these votes will be recounted, and how those recounts will be enforced. Both parties have made serious allegations of election tampering, so that enforcement matters a great deal in practice. Pro’s statement that “the states can still handle it” is non-responsive to the very real concerns I’ve brought up with ambiguous cases being handled by the Supreme Court.



Non-Topical Arguments:

Pro provides additional arguments (George Wallace, 3/5ths compromise, “small upper class of elites”) which he doesn’t really tie to to the framework I have defended, but I will address them here anyway.


Do Pro’s arguments here show any positive impact of a direct vote?

No. The 3/5ths compromise was abolished by the 14th amendment. Switching to a popular vote will not change the “enduring impact of the 3/5ths Compromise,” since the 3/5ths compromise already happened and Pro’s proposal does not allow him to get in a time machine and change what policies existed in the 1800s. Pro does not show evidence of the Electoral College in its modern form causing voter suppression or gerrymandering—particularly under my counterplan, where proportional elector allocation would preclude gerrymandering.


However, Pro gives more recent evidence of the Electoral College reducing systemic racism by harming George Wallace’s campaign. Pro claims that “segregation doesn't 'silence people,’” except that Pro has just cited “systemic racism and voter suppression” as things to be avoided, and the Jim Crow policies Wallace supported are direct causes of those things. Pro claims that “even by direct voting, he wouldn't have won”—but this example is evidence that direct voting would make candidates with strongly similar beliefs to Wallace more likely to be elected in the future. Hence, the “thumbs of this two party system” and binary choice are necessary for keeping extremely fringe candidates like Wallace from becoming president. Voters still have a voice because the two parties are competing for them.

Furthermore, Pro provides no evidence to justify why a “small upper class of elite political parties control the votes” under the Electoral College—sure, there are two main parties right now, but they are forced to compete to win voters by appealing to them.



Conclusion:

Does a direct voting system risk undermining the spirit of the republic?

Yes. A direct voting system fails all three tests that underpin this debate. Pro fails to engage with the core harms I’ve led out under each of these criteria, such as California’s disastrous Proposition 1A, the strong partisan divide around a direct vote, and the complications around recounts that would inevitably centralize power in the Supreme Court under a direct voting system.

New comment

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#27

Understandable. I do the same thing sometimes. I see a value so apparent i forget others dont see like i do.

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#26
--> @melcharaz

Thanks for voting and the feedback.

I think I have trouble with the 'why something should be done, sometimes.

Values seem a bit arbitrary to me at times,
People either value something or they don't.

The 'implications often seem there, this change will increase freedom, this change will increase efficiency,
I often don't see the need to argue 'why someone ought value X,
I just take it as granted that 'some people value X or Y.

People will support X action if they value X,
But I have trouble saying 'why people should value X,
Because values seem arbitrary to me.

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#25
--> @Leaning

I will say i noticed a consistent pattern in leaning when it comes to government and rewritting things. He mentions the possibility of it, but often times forgets to tell us why it should be done.
Give incentives for supposed reasons. Give detriments to supposed reasons.

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#24
--> @Leaning, @Savant

Well i ignored the third round and i apologize for not putting more effort into reading yalls debate. It took yall a while to get this stuff and argue about it.

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Kohai Administrator
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#23
--> @melcharaz

Looks good to me

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#22

Dont like my vote? Its ok. Remove it. I explained the dread i had in trying to do this.

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#21
--> @Leaning

"once/if the process takes place in all the states, surely there could be enough support for constitution change?"

I'm not sure. NPVIC, for example, goes in to effect once there are enough states on board for 270 electoral votes. I think it's 25 votes short right now (if you count pending legislation), but it only has 19 states. You need 38 states to do an amendment. So that would be a lot harder.

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#20
--> @Savant

Yes, I can see how it would do that. Not bringing it up was a wise play.

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Savant Administrator
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#19
--> @Death23

Thanks for the detailed vote! I thought about bringing up the NPVIC but decided against it as that would just open up more paths for Pro if he decided to defend it or argue its political feasibility.

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Kohai Administrator
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#18
--> @Death23

excellent RFD. Good to see you made it here

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#17
--> @Death23

@Death23
Thanks for the vote and the feedback.

"Reform within the existing constitutional framework like Con suggests (e.g. proportional voting, or the conspicuously absent NPVIC) can accomplish much of the same goals without the burdensome amendment process"
. .
Yeah, that did throw me in the debate, because it seems so reasonable.
Though the end result 'seems much the same to me as amending the constitution,
So once/if the process takes place in all the states, surely there could be enough support for constitution change?

"3/5ths compromise"
. .
Yeah, that was just something I flung without looking too close in hopes it would make sense.
I'd hoped I might have saved it by claiming I was using it as an example of how much counting people and states different bothers people.

"If the popular vote was determinative, then every voter’s probability would be equal."
. .
Are swing states not another name for battleground states?
I think I 'did address it when talking about the Whole and 'Americans rather than 'States,
But probably I was too indirect about it.
. . . I also kind of doubt even 'with direct voting that the candidates would appeal to the 'whole, it's still not always going to be about issues that effect 'everyone.

Gerrymandering
. .
Yeah I flailed at nothing there.

The Senate
. .
I actually don't know much about the Senate.
If the South hadn't fought or lost the Civil War, maybe State Rights would seem more important to me, and I'd think that senators and representatives ought be equal between states.
Though I'm aware Representatives have always been of different numbers (Population based).

Wallace
. .
Well,
One, I don't know much about the electoral system.
Two, much of my argument was appeal to popular ideas of Democracy and Representation. What do we value/want?
If the electoral system doesn't represent the people, it would bother some people I think.

Recount Costs
. .
Yeah I couldn't think of an argument, I hate wasting money.
. . . Though 'maybe I could have argued the amount of money involved in recounts isn't that bad. I don't have a good understanding of what various amounts of money 'mean or their importance. US debt is currently 38 trillion I think.

"weight of a feather, on recount costs"
. .
How about that.

@NobodyInParaticular

From what I remember, I watched one video and browsed Wikipedia bit for the debate.

Hour and a half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GURDCaDqswM&t=2s
Debate: Has the Electoral College Outlived Its Usefulness?

After the debate I found this video a bit interesting, about 7 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8XOZJkozfI
The Voting System That Actually Represents Everyone

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#16

Hey that worked

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Savant Administrator
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#15
--> @Death23

To vote on ultrarated, you have to go to your profile then badges, then take the voting quiz, then click to be assigned a debate to vote on. You'll be randomly assigned a debate in the voting stage if it doesn't have enough assigned voters yet. Might be this one, might be another one.

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#14

No NPVIC discussion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

Also wrote a vote but I guess I can't vote. Oh well. It was mostly based on the burdens and for Con based on the recount costs.

I copy/paste it here -

First, to address what the burdens are here –

Con stated in round 2 that “The description requires that I must defend “an electoral college in some form.” This is not accurate. The description states that “Con must, at minimum, prove that an electoral college in some form is better than direct election.” The description also states that “Pro must prove that we should substantially [alter] the norms of our elections and switch to a direct election.”

Con does discuss the proportional voting allocation method in Nebraska. I don’t see any discussion here about the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) which is the mainstream method of Electoral College reform that’s in the works. If NPVIC was implemented it arguably would be a de-facto direct election which arguably would “substantially alter the norms of our elections and switch to a direct election” and an argument in favor of it could satisfy Pro’s BoP, save for the part about it being a “direct” election because it’s still indirect in the sense that the popular vote count is used by the states who they appoint electors and then the electors do the voting. Yet, there’s no talk of it.

Problem here is Pro and Con have different goal posts so to speak. What if Pro doesn’t meet his burden and neither does Con? What if they both meet their burdens? It’s almost like they’re not arguing for and against the same things due to the description.

Anyway while Pro has demonstrated the need for reform, Con’s rebuttal about the necessity for a constitutional amendment to accomplish that reform is persuasive. The constitutional amendment process is very burdensome. Switching to a direct election requires a constitutional amendment. Reform within the existing constitutional framework like Con suggests (e.g. proportional voting, or the conspicuously absent NPVIC) can accomplish much of the same goals without the burdensome amendment process which, as a practical matter, is politically challenging more so than it is procedurally.

Pro’s talk about slavery and the 3/5ths compromise and such, I don’t see how that’s relevant at all. This was pointed out by Con.

I don’t see much point to talking about faithless electors and the single voting authority argument. Faithless electors have never changed the outcome of an election and when they do vote like that it’s usually been some no-impact political statement that changes nothing. Further, there is already a central voting authority and it’s congressional certification of election results and vote tabulation that happens in the senate. Yet, this all seems to be missed so I can’t consider it really.

What the current system really does is cause candidates to focus on battleground states and take for granted the states where the outcome isn’t going to make a difference. There’s not going to be any campaigning in California or New York, but there is going to be a lot of campaigning in Florida and Ohio. The voting power of a voter can perhaps be measured by the probability that a single vote will change the outcome of an election. While these probabilities are very low, they are orders of magnitude higher in battle ground states than they are in the non-swing states. If the popular vote was determinative, then every voter’s probability would be equal. That would be a lot more fair. Well this argument wasn’t there so I can’t really consider it. I’m just ranting.

Pro points to mistrust about Savant’s counterplan about gerrymandering and district setting. OK Savant’s counterplan doesn’t involve any gerrymandering. It’s simply proportional allocation based on state lines. Pro points out the unequal voting weight between states voting power. There is some unequal voting power but it’s not so bad really because the number of electoral votes is based on representation congress (house rep count plus senate rep count). So, voting power between each person isn’t too unequal as it is from the battle ground state // non-swing state analysis I described before which is a consequence of the winner take all system. I don’t consider these counter-arguments in my vote Im simply being expressive. Id imagine that Pro must really dislike the US Senate. One person in Wyoming gets the same representation as 67 people in California. Lame.

Why are we talking about Wallace? This is about as irrelevant as the 3/5ths compromise.

So at the end I’m looking at this: Pro needs to prove that we got to get rid of the electoral college. He’s got to prove that. What has Pro done to address Con’s counterplan of proportional representation? I don’t see any good arguments. The constitutional amendment process is arguably unduly burdensome in the USA. This makes Pro’s burden high. Pro’s arguments are like “I don’t trust Con’s motives” but there’s little analysis of Con’s proposals and arguments. Like this is almost ad hom. Most everything else irrelevant to the resolution in the description (e.g. 3/5ths compromise, Wallace talk) Centralization vs decentralization doesn’t have much of an impact. I suppose it’s a benefit to the electoral college in some degree.

Pro has not met his burden. But has Con met his?

“Con must, at minimum, prove that an electoral college in some form is better than direct election.”

See, Con’s burden does away with any analysis of the difficulty of changing from one system to the other. Because we are comparing the two systems we are not considering the difficulty of switching from one system to the other. In this way the analysis of considering whether or not Con has met his burden is different than the analysis of considering whether or not Pro has met his, as Pro’s burden explicitly required a “switch to a direct election”, thus requiring a constitutional amendment.

Con, show me that the electoral college is better than a direct election please, “in some form”. The form Con suggests is proportional electoral vote allocation. Why is this better Con?

Con’s arguments –

Accomodation of diverse factions –
OK. Rural vs urban. Talk about California. Why are we talking about how rural voters are supposedly given greater representation under the electoral college system and then talking about California rural voters who basically get less of a voice under the electoral college system than rural voters in other states with lower populations? This isn’t a rural urban thing. But what does Pro say about it? Seems to be a majority rule principle, one-man one-vote stance, a long with local control to the extent permitted under the federal system.

Preferring moderation to drastic political measures – This isn’t exactly relevant due to the comparison requirement I discussed before. Yet, the time-tested argument is relevant (i.e. it’s use for centuries is evidence of it’s stability) – The partisan divide argument is irrelevant to the burden analysis as again, we are doing a comparison of the systems. The cost of the change from one system to the other isn’t relevant.

Maintaining decentralized power –
Con claims recount costs. Anything from Pro on this? I see something about saying that states would still be in charge of tallying up all the votes thus the process would be decentralized, but no talk about the recount costs. Hmmmm.

Con points out the recount costs. Pro dropped this, largely. Frankly, recount costs aren’t that big of a deal, while they do still matter.

I haven’t seen persuasive arguments either way about why rural voters should have a greater voice than urban ones. Local control, yes, but on the other hand one man one vote. These arguments are equal in my eyes.

Con meets his burden, by the weight of a feather, on recount costs. Con merely must show that the electoral college is “better” – And better by an infinitesimal is sufficient to meet the burden.

My vote goes to Con. Many missed opportunities for Pro to win here IMHO, and NPVIC discussion would have been interesting.

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#13

This was a good debate, it's clear there was lots of effort and research from both sides. I'll try to vote on it by this weekend.

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#12
--> @whiteflame

Heh, true, Wallace possibly isn't very appealing to many modern people.
I'm not sure I 'researched anything about Wallace the first round, other than noting there was a difference between his popular and electoral votes.

I do think Savant did a good job in focusing on his framework and arguing it's importance in the debate.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#11
--> @Leaning

I think it's fair to argue that we aren't giving third parties a fair shake to represent the people. I don't know if a direct vote improves their representation - I think there's a better argument for ranked choice voting potentially managing that - but I do think if you're going to use a candidate to represent the problems with the existing system, Wallace wasn't your best bet.

Regarding frameworks, it doesn't necessarily have to be super formal in how you engage with them, but when Savant's saying that you have to defeat specific points in order to win and he's doing a good deal of work to explain why, I need some competing view of how I should view the debate. Even something simple like "Democracy, Representation, and Knowledge" as you put it would give me something along those lines, and that just came up a little too late.

I agree on gish gallop, that is an issue and it's something I've become sensitive to as a voter. If someone is just throwing out a bunch of arguments with barely any justification and then saying that a dropped point is conceded, then they're not winning much with me. A point with more ink on it that gets full justification and matters to the debate, even if it's mitigated, is going to matter a lot more than a blipped out impact with barely any link story. I know some voters will buy into the whole "conceded points are more powerful" perspective, but if their only power is the concession, they're not going anywhere with me.

And yeah, I think having a clear view of what Savant was advocating for would have helped. I've had instances where I've misunderstood my opponent's case and it cost me a few debates, so I get it.

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#10
--> @Savant

Ah, I see now.

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Savant Administrator
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#9
--> @Leaning

Lincoln won a plurality of the popular vote but not a majority.

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#8
--> @whiteflame

Darn, though not surprising, thanks for the voting and feedback.

I'm not 'so bothered by the Wallace arguments, Doesn't seem right to me that the people's voice is not fairly represented in third party candidates.
. . . I'm also not sure it even works for the two parties some of the time. . . Perhaps they often get members and even leaders in their parties who do not believe, espouse, or legislate their values.
Might muddy what the parties effectiveness and what they even 'mean, I'd imagine.

Framework I probably could have done better on, but it didn't feel all that important (Though arguably it is in debates).
Whatever motivates people in caring about something, whether it can work or not, is often more broad than narrow.
Working best as guidelines, unless they're specifically in the description of the debate, and a key question.

. . . Dropped points, I think professional debaters would agree with Savant,
Though personally I still dislike that particular part of some debates.
I don't think Savant gish galloped, but theoretically if someone did, it's hard to address 'all an opponents points.
Not addressing them means they just stand on their own merits (In my view)
Doesn't mean I accede to them.
Sometimes someone (Not Savant) makes a dumb argument, or one of little relevance, doesn't seem worth the time to address such.
Even 'without gish gallop, many debates one could probably sum up a list on either side of dropped arguments.
I made my argument, they made theirs, should be enough for third party to judge.
It's annoying sometimes (Not this debate) the idea of having to come back to an argument again and again, just because the opponent keeps changing it slightly.

My biggest fault in the debate I'd say, was that I 'did have trouble nailing down what Con’s specifically advocating for.
What Proportional Elector Allocation exactly was, examples of it. . .
Even in the final round, it didn't click with me that it would not have voting districts within the state, until I read your vote.
Which wrecks my claims that it can be gerrymanded.

@NoOneInParticular
I thought Lincoln 'did win the popular vote?

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Savant Administrator
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#7
--> @whiteflame

Thanks for voting!

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#6

Imma have to reread this a few times. But a key thing i notice is the approach.
1 approach is a logical evaluation of the system considering the aspects that the law and voters historically undertook to prove the point of view.
2 approach is logical evaluation of the liberty and free market of ideas that a person can engage with.

One approach is more systematic,
The other approach is more freeform and liberal (liberal as in not bound by Bureaucracy or historical prescedent)

Good debate guys!

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Kohai Administrator
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#5
--> @Savant

great debate. I’ll definitely vote

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Savant Administrator
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#4
--> @Hyper, @Kohai, @whiteflame

Please vote!

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Leaning Global Moderator
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#3

Eh, I've never studied, looked, or thought much about the Electoral College.
I've no strong views or data of it.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#2

Ooh, simple topic but with a lot of intriguing ways this could go. Looking forward to it.

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Kohai Administrator
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#1

This is gonna be good.

Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
First off. The bop is heavily contender favored with the wording.
Second. There is stuff in here that doesn't add to bop of either side
Third. After reading this my brain goes blank and i literally have dread for trying to weigh this.

The one good thing i like about this debate is the defintions are airtight. Gj on that.

All that being said, ill try to keep it short.

R1 instigator (in summation) talks about culturalism or nativity bias and lack of trust in representatives. Shown in gerrymandering as an example

R1 contender states need to defend electoralism... im ignoring that cause thats not bop, also im looking at what makes it better, not the morality or spirit of it, but concrete or imperical evidence that the result is attained.
Also why does contender tell instigator to pass his tests? Thats not part of his or instigator's bop.
Contender's 1: basically not alot of media, would take alot of time cause rural/urban lifestyle differences.
Sure, that can hinder the progress of changing electoral system.
Contender 2: so a 200 year prescedent and republicans wanting electoral college cause they sick of democrats gerry mandering and pretending the republicans do it more. Yeah i can understand that as well, its a partisian issue based on manipulating the system, or fear.
Contender 3: recounting is expensive and people lie or election tampering. Yep, i agree, same reason they both do it as point 2.

Contendor rebuttal: dont forget the farmers, and 3/5ths was abolished.

Frankly alot of the stuff mentioned is more relevant before the expansion of technology, which neither side addressed. We got farmers with phones and ipads now.

R2 instigator: constitution can be amended, faithless electors dont matter, people like to feel their choice matters. Why the heck is he referencing a debateart debate.....
Votes were miscounted or were of illegal/dead people.
Election bureacracy can deal with any form of election counting.
R2 contender basically clarifying stuff, mentions overturn of faithless electors. Elector allocation messed up colorado. Framework was focus on "spirit"

i addressed weighing that earlier

Proofs instigator didnt meet... cause he apparently had to?
"Didnt dispute Montesquieu" about the spirit of the electoral college? All he had to dispute is the norms of the electoral college, not why.


Basically i rule in favor of contendor, despite the minimal impirical evidence and lesser bop, he still manange to create standards no one asked for, invoke values non essential to the debate.
BUT! He did focus on the key reason why electoral college should still remain, its more expensive, and our politicians are fearful power hungry liars who gaslight everyone.

Instigator tried, but he had a harder bop and i didnt feel there was enough to convince me to switch to direct election, i do agree that in alot of ways it COULD be better, but inside the vaccum of government bureacracy and the lack of solutions and evidence to back it up, it ultimately didnt stand.

This debate felt like a optimistic guy trying to fight a shredder.



Death23
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
First, to address what the burdens are here –

Con stated in round 2 that “The description requires that I must defend “an electoral college in some form.” This is not accurate. The description states that “Con must, at minimum, prove that an electoral college in some form is better than direct election.” The description also states that “Pro must prove that we should substantially [alter] the norms of our elections and switch to a direct election.”

Con does discuss the proportional voting allocation method in Nebraska. I don’t see any discussion here about the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact (NPVIC) which is the mainstream method of Electoral College reform that’s in the works. If NPVIC was implemented it arguably would be a de-facto direct election which arguably would “substantially alter the norms of our elections and switch to a direct election” and an argument in favor of it could satisfy Pro’s BoP, save for the part about it being a “direct” election because it’s still indirect in the sense that the popular vote count is used by the states who they appoint electors and then the electors do the voting. Yet, there’s no talk of it.

Problem here is Pro and Con have different goal posts so to speak. What if Pro doesn’t meet his burden and neither does Con? What if they both meet their burdens? It’s almost like they’re not arguing for and against the same things due to the description.

Anyway while Pro has demonstrated the need for reform, Con’s rebuttal about the necessity for a constitutional amendment to accomplish that reform is persuasive. The constitutional amendment process is very burdensome. Switching to a direct election requires a constitutional amendment. Reform within the existing constitutional framework like Con suggests (e.g. proportional voting, or the conspicuously absent NPVIC) can accomplish much of the same goals without the burdensome amendment process which, as a practical matter, is politically challenging more so than it is procedurally.

Pro’s talk about slavery and the 3/5ths compromise and such, I don’t see how that’s relevant at all. This was pointed out by Con.

I don’t see much point to talking about faithless electors and the single voting authority argument. Faithless electors have never changed the outcome of an election and when they do vote like that it’s usually been some no-impact political statement that changes nothing. Further, there is already a central voting authority and it’s congressional certification of election results and vote tabulation that happens in the senate. Yet, this all seems to be missed so I can’t consider it really.

What the current system really does is cause candidates to focus on battleground states and take for granted the states where the outcome isn’t going to make a difference. There’s not going to be any campaigning in California or New York, but there is going to be a lot of campaigning in Florida and Ohio. The voting power of a voter can perhaps be measured by the probability that a single vote will change the outcome of an election. While these probabilities are very low, they are orders of magnitude higher in battle ground states than they are in the non-swing states. If the popular vote was determinative, then every voter’s probability would be equal. That would be a lot more fair. Well this argument wasn’t there so I can’t really consider it. I’m just ranting.

Pro points to mistrust about Savant’s counterplan about gerrymandering and district setting. OK Savant’s counterplan doesn’t involve any gerrymandering. It’s simply proportional allocation based on state lines. Pro points out the unequal voting weight between states voting power. There is some unequal voting power but it’s not so bad really because the number of electoral votes is based on representation congress (house rep count plus senate rep count). So, voting power between each person isn’t too unequal as it is from the battle ground state // non-swing state analysis I described before which is a consequence of the winner take all system. I don’t consider these counter-arguments in my vote Im simply being expressive. Id imagine that Pro must really dislike the US Senate. One person in Wyoming gets the same representation as 67 people in California. Lame.

Why are we talking about Wallace? This is about as irrelevant as the 3/5ths compromise.

So at the end I’m looking at this: Pro needs to prove that we got to get rid of the electoral college. He’s got to prove that. What has Pro done to address Con’s counterplan of proportional representation? I don’t see any good arguments. The constitutional amendment process is arguably unduly burdensome in the USA. This makes Pro’s burden high. Pro’s arguments are like “I don’t trust Con’s motives” but there’s little analysis of Con’s proposals and arguments. Like this is almost ad hom. Most everything else irrelevant to the resolution in the description (e.g. 3/5ths compromise, Wallace talk) Centralization vs decentralization doesn’t have much of an impact. I suppose it’s a benefit to the electoral college in some degree.

Pro has not met his burden. But has Con met his?

“Con must, at minimum, prove that an electoral college in some form is better than direct election.”

See, Con’s burden does away with any analysis of the difficulty of changing from one system to the other. Because we are comparing the two systems we are not considering the difficulty of switching from one system to the other. In this way the analysis of considering whether or not Con has met his burden is different than the analysis of considering whether or not Pro has met his, as Pro’s burden explicitly required a “switch to a direct election”, thus requiring a constitutional amendment.

Con, show me that the electoral college is better than a direct election please, “in some form”. The form Con suggests is proportional electoral vote allocation. Why is this better Con?

Con’s arguments –

Accomodation of diverse factions –
OK. Rural vs urban. Talk about California. Why are we talking about how rural voters are supposedly given greater representation under the electoral college system and then talking about California rural voters who basically get less of a voice under the electoral college system than rural voters in other states with lower populations? This isn’t a rural urban thing. But what does Pro say about it? Seems to be a majority rule principle, one-man one-vote stance, a long with local control to the extent permitted under the federal system.

Preferring moderation to drastic political measures – This isn’t exactly relevant due to the comparison requirement I discussed before. Yet, the time-tested argument is relevant (i.e. it’s use for centuries is evidence of it’s stability) – The partisan divide argument is irrelevant to the burden analysis as again, we are doing a comparison of the systems. The cost of the change from one system to the other isn’t relevant.

Maintaining decentralized power –
Con claims recount costs. Anything from Pro on this? I see something about saying that states would still be in charge of tallying up all the votes thus the process would be decentralized, but no talk about the recount costs. Hmmmm.

Con points out the recount costs. Pro dropped this, largely. Frankly, recount costs aren’t that big of a deal, while they do still matter.

I haven’t seen persuasive arguments either way about why rural voters should have a greater voice than urban ones. Local control, yes, but on the other hand one man one vote. These arguments are equal in my eyes.

Con meets his burden, by the weight of a feather, on recount costs. Con merely must show that the electoral college is “better” – And better by an infinitesimal is sufficient to meet the burden.

My vote goes to Con. Many missed opportunities for Pro to win here IMHO, and NPVIC discussion would have been interesting.
whiteflame
whiteflame Global Moderator
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Starting with the topical analysis. I understand Con’s counterplan to be, essentially, a system where the number of electors remains consistent with the current electoral college, but they are assigned strictly by proportion of the population that votes for a given candidate. So there would necessarily not be opportunities to gerrymander, given that it’s not based on voting districts, and the requirement to nullify the votes of faithless electors effective renders this one-to-one with the actual proportion of votes. So what this is doing is attempting to retain the outsized voice some states have while trying to more directly capture the results of the popular vote. I’ll come back to how Pro addresses that later.

Regarding the requirement for a constitutional amendment under Pro’s plan, I don’t think that ends up mattering a lot. Regardless of the difficulty, debate always includes fiat for a reason and Pro can just fiat that, yes, a constitutional amendment will pass. Con could have argued that there would be a cost to doing this, but not that it was unlikely or wouldn’t happen. It’s a should, not a could.

Moving onto the framework, I really would have liked to see more from Pro here. Con has a very clear set of standards he sets of why a government should use its legal structures for the good of the people, breaking it out to accommodation, moderation and decentralized power. Beyond arguing some of the minutiae of some of these points, particularly on decentralized power, Pro doesn’t suggest another framework until his final round and by then, it’s too little too late. To some degree, “Democracy, Representation, and Knowledge” have underpinned his arguments from the start, but there’s no clear framework comparison present in his arguments. Instead, it largely functions as a statement of “these are things that matter and that we should care about,” rather than clear reasons to prefer his framework to Con’s. And that reason to prefer is necessary in order to make the case that Pro’s arguments have more weight/merit than Con’s.

And that leads into the burdens debate. I think Pro lets Con get away with too much here - the notion that Pro has to pass “these tests” to make his case worthwhile is pigeonholing his points and forcing him to only pay attention to Con’s points, and frankly, I don’t buy that the more sweeping the change, the more it should be held to account. Both sides read as engaging in large-scale changes, with the only major differences being whether votes are represented or directly counted and the continued existence of an electoral college. Still, Con does justify the need for Pro to address these, and I don’t see a direct response challenging him on that. I need some reason why Pro’s points satisfy his burdens in the absence of Con’s, or at least some basis for why he’s winning on these arguments. There’s just not a lot to work with from Pro here.

Which leads into the arguments proper.

Pro’s case is relatively straightforward, but the key problem is that there’s limited comparison to Con’s actual counterplan. Pro sets the stage by arguing that we need identity, but I’m not clear on what makes Con’s representative electoral votes insufficient. There are points to be made about how it reduces you to numbers, effectively means you’re still using a middleman to have your vote counted (that comes up later), and how that can still be manipulated into effectively discounting large swaths of the population that don’t get represented as a result of being short a few hundred votes required to get another elector for your side, but I don’t see Pro making those points. So he wins that there is some unique, direct identity achieved by his case, but the line between his case and Con’s is muddled. What’s the harm in having someone represent your vote? I’m still unclear on that by the end. Same with the point about majorities, which I think Con effectively turns on him by showcasing the strength of the electoral college in ensuring that minority populations get outsized voices, something Pro can’t address with his case.

A lot of the rest of Pro’s case is on the inequality argument, which just never seems on topic. Has the system been setup such that the electoral college gives outsized voices to parties that don’t warrant it? Sure. Is Con’s system going to cause more of that? I can’t see how. I think generally, Pro has trouble nailing down what Con’s specifically advocating for and, as a result, points like this end up being tangential or even off topic. That’s not helped by points about Wallace, who just ends up looking like an example of all the ways Pro’s system could go wrong.

As for Con’s case, a lot of these points just don’t get addressed. He presents several case studies that are key to his arguments, including the California study that demonstrates how a direct voting system there is harmful to many small groups via the high speed rail, demonstrating how the partisan divide over whether the electoral college continues to exist is only going to be worsened by doing it, and the difficulties involved with managing such a system and, in particular, handling recounts. The second point is probably Con’s weakest (he acknowledges a strong partisan divide now and it’s unclear how this dramatically worsens things), but the other two are unique and more quantifiable harms that I don’t see Pro address anywhere. They end up swaying my vote and I vote Con.