Did the apostles teach the trinity doctrine or did mankind invent it?

I'm not the affirmative so I don't have to make a case but I want to preface this topic anyway to keep in decency and in order like the bible say.

According to the Trinity doctrine, God is three persons. Father God is not the holy Ghost. Jesus is not the Father.

However, the doctrine double speaks by saying Jesus is God. It's double minded by saying the holy ghost is God .

So when asking a trinitarian questions, his answers are unstable in all his ways of answers.

But did the apostles teach God is three persons?

Let's see what the apostles taught.

Let's start with the high priest apostle Jesus.

In the book of John chapter four.

"21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit"

The Father is spirit. This is the doctrine the apostles will teach.

Jesus didn't say the Father is the first person. He didn't say God is three persons here.

Let's get another apostle.

John 14

"8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

Philip didn't say show us the first person. It wasn't taught that in any doctrine anywhere.

Jesus said God is spirit, not three persons and he was the second. He did say "I am".

Just let that ruminate. He didn't say he was the second person....but he said "I am".

So many witnesses in John, we have another apostle.

John twenty

"26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Thomas didn't say "my God which are three persons". He didn't say "My Lord the second person or the first person". He didn't say it because he wasn't taught that.

That's not found in any apostle's doctrine anywhere .

Paul a servant of Jesus Christ said in 1 Corinthians 8

"6 But to us there is but one God, the Father"

But to us there is but one God, three persons , the Father the first person.

"6 But to us there is but one God, the Father"

But to us there is but one God not holy but three persons , the Father the first person.

"6 But to us there is but one God, the Father"

But to us there is but one God not spirit, three persons , the Father the first person.

"6 But to us there is but one God, the Father"

Paul a servant of Jesus Christ received revelation from Christ that said God is spirit that this same spirit is The Father God.

Let's get John.

Revelation chapter 1

"1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

So according to this, there's a message about keeping.... keeping those things that are written.

So if you say Jesus Christ the second person, God the first person, you're not keeping those things WRITTEN. Not implied nor suggested but written.

Nowhere in scripture is God implying anything. The laws were WRITTEN in stone. The prophets WROTE the words from God.

Why is this so important, that things are written?

It's because you can search for these things. But if it's left to suggestions, it's left to assumption. Left to ....... PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

Left to subjective opinion. A way that seems. When somebody says ....it seems as though the text is saying..... it's a way that seeeeeeeeems right.

You're going to end up destroyed. If we're talking about from the scriptural standpoint. From not speaking on what you know but what seems and people are destroyed from a lack of knowing; a lack of knowledge.

In verse 8

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty"

Now John heard this voice, what the Lord saith, wrote down what he seeth in the spirit.

He didn't see a second person or first person because he didn't write that. Not only did he not see that but he didn't hear that.

The Lord himself just said he was the first.

The trinity doctrine came in , added "person" to what the Lord saith.

Do not add unto his pure words less you be reproved and found a liar.

Saying thus saith the Lord where the Lord have not said. One that has spoken a thing that has not come to pass is a false prophet.

A so called prophet that has spoken what has not , I the Lord have deceived that prophet .

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet.

When you lean unto your own understanding, you start thinking about what is LOGICAL. You start thinking about what makes sense to you.

None of these apostles touching the doctrines of God leaned on their own understanding, thought in rationality.

Scripture say let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus. Jesus received the words, revelation from his Father.

That's how the apostles received. But these doctrines of men are received of men, passed down.

So in man's understanding and thinking, he gets inventive.

After God has established a thing, man invents a new way. The three person Godhead doctrine. The living in sin doctrine.

God established a way of holiness according to the scripture. Man invented the way of christianity. Even the scripture teaches where man coined the term christian.

Very inventive.

Ecclesiastes 7

"29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."

Leaning on your own understanding is approaching the book of scriptures like any other book.

You read it, you subject it to what you think things mean making a private interpretation.

So when you read Jesus and the Father, and the holy Spirit, take notes audience..........when people have read this .....in their thinking...... their minds......the only way this MAKES SENSE.......is a three..... person..... doctrine.

But the apostles never did that. The book never taught they thought about what made logical sense.

It was given to them to teach, then they went out and taught the nations what they were given and what we have of what they were given has been written. It has been written.

So if anyone sits down and reads these scriptures and think about what it means instead of sitting under what the scripture teach , a God sent preacher, you not going to know the truth of the scriptures. You're going to be deceived, mislead by doctrines made up not by God but by men and passed along.

Men made up Judaism, christianity, baptists, methodists, seven day Adventists, penecostals, presbyterian, martin Lutheran, preterist, Jehovah witness, latter day saints, Catholic, roman Catholic, what else?

Armenianism, Calvinism, modalism, trinitarian, binatarian, oneness, so many witnesses and inventions.

Just behold......we don't read any of this in scripture. Not at least for any person of God to be by God. So who started this? Who came up with this?

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Judaism, christianity, baptists, methodists, seven day Adventists, penecostals, presbyterian, martin Lutheran, preterist, Jehovah witness, latter day saints, Catholic, roman Catholic, what else?

Armenianism, Calvinism, modalism, trinitarian, binatarian, oneness , etc., as the scripture teach, the divisions among you.

This is the great falling away according to what God of the scriptures established way back with Moses, the people of Israel.

But the Apostle's doctrine never said anything about a three person Godhead doctrine.

You notice people like the opposite side will tend to say "we see" or "it shows" but you notice they'll never say "we read". That is the deception.

What you see is subjective because you claim to see while actually being blind having eyes that cannot see.

This is why they can't say "we read". Which exposes the lies, the falsehood.

How else can we know what is so if we can't search and read it?

We can't. Everything else is subjective and private interpretation.

So the opposite side can go to John, won't save the opposite side.

The opposing side can go to Thomas that truly didn't have faith like those reading these scriptures not believing it teaches what it does, even still , won't deliver this opposing individual.

The opposing side can go to Paul and Philip , there'll be trouble there.

The opposite side can go to Jesus, the opposite side better be willing to be a liar and Jesus the truth.

I yield.

"Jesus is described as being a distinct person from the Father. He is called the Son. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God. A Father and a Son are two separate persons. The Spirit of God belongs to God but is also God. 3 persons in one God. Very simple."

We can't read all of this in scripture any place.

But it's to be expected by now that the opposing side like many others will not necessarily speak as the oracles of God but utter the doctrine of men. The ways that seem right.

"Jesus says self-glory is nothing, which means the Father cannot be Jesus since the Father glorifies Jesus."

Then Jesus can't be God because scripture says God is the Father.

You can't have one without the other .

"Jesus is clearly praying to a separate person to send another person. The Trinity is right there."

Here it is demonstrated the opposite side is suggesting something that is not in text anywhere. Thus proving it wasn't the apostles who taught this .

'How is Jesus at the right hand of God if there is only 1 person?"

This is because God is a spirit. Scripture doesn't say God is a person or another person. Scripture said, Jesus told you God was a spirit. Now the apostle Jesus, you gone believe him or call him a liar.

"Paul doesn't act like "Holy Ghost" is just another name for the Father. The person with whom he interacted had never heard of the Holy Spirit, which would be impossible if Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father."

So you went to Acts 19 so let's line that up with Acts 5.

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

Now if you believe the holy ghost is God, the same Paul in Acts 19 taught this same God is the Father in 1 Corinthians 8.

Do you see how all this lines up?

You line up scripture. Line upon line from the lines of Acts to Corinthians.

Peter, Paul said nothing about the holy Spirit being one person and the Father being another.

You can't read that so why are you saying it?

Whatever you say the bible is saying, read it. Read it . Read it . Read it. Read it. Read it.

I can read what I say it says. I say God is a spirit. You can read that.

You say God is a person. We can't read that.

I say the Father is holy. You can read that.

I say the Father is God. You can read that.

We put all this lines together. It certifies 1 John 5 and 7. Doesn't say three persons.

But these three are one .....one what?

According to 1 Corinthians 8 , one God the Father..... that's the only subject "one" exists or is applied.

One God, one Lord , one spirit. None of this says persons in there. Persons is a man made concept. Get out of man made doctrine, tradition and philosophy and comeback to exactly what the scriptures say or remain lost.

"Grammar tells us about first person, second person, and third person pronouns. We see God talking to God but using different persons of grammar because He is actually talking to another divine person."

Get off grammar and find the words that tell us first person second third person.

God nowhere called himself first person, so don't say the bible says it . If you know it doesn't say it, don't use the language but speak as the oracles of God. Which means what God said.

God nowhere called the son of God second person. God nor the son of God called the holy ghost third person nor the apostles said any of this. They said nothing about "another divine person".

You just like any other trinitarian are taking an interpretation of words based on private views talking about "We see".

There ain't no "We see" with me in that. I see words of scripture and there are no words that are saying what you say.

I'm going to go to bible and going to try the spirit.

In first Corinthians eight and six, did the apostle Paul teach there is one God the Father as one divine person ?

"The Bible also refers to the Son, and the Father and the Son have to be separate persons, otherwise, there is no fatherhood or sonship to each other. In con's model, it is impossible for the Father to call the Son "Son" and the Son to call the Father "Father." "

I don't have a model but the model of the bible and the bible says God is the Father. Not God the Father here but not there or sometimes. Matter of fact , it says EVERLASTING Father. So the opposing side has got a God that stops being the Father for some reason. The opposing side also has a God that is a person for some reason.

So it is the opposing side that has a man made interpretation of scripture model not given to the apostles at all.

The apostle Paul said one GOD THE FATHER. The opposing side is saying "separate persons". Paul didn't say God is a person or a separate person or the Father is a separate person. He just said one God was the Father. He got the revelation from God the Christ himself.

So again, the opposing side has lost this point.

"Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself. The Apostles taught what Jesus taught. If you don't believe the Apostles, you can't believe anything. The Apostles wrote what Jesus did and taught it."

Scripture say prove all things. You are giving empty words. Get me bible that any apostle anywhere said the Father is one person and the son is the second or another person. Either get that scripture or say this is your interpretation or the interpretation you been told. Stop playing with the word of God and properly handle it.

" "Spirit" doesn't mean there is one person. Spirit doesn't always refer to the Holy Spirit specifically either. Angels are spirits."

I'm waiting on that scripture that says God the Father which is holy and spirit, the holy Spirit is a person. You doing a lot of talking and ain't proving anything with bible.

"He also taught God was Jesus (1 Corinthians 8:6) by calling Him "one Lord," which is used to show the oneness of God, and Paul shows the plurality in God by persons."

Stop with the "showing" and read "persons" concerning the Godhead by any apostle. That's your problem. You can't read it.

We can read God is a spirit by one apostle. We can read one God the Father by another. We can't read what you're saying.

If we can't read it, you're going beyond that what is written taught by the apostles.

1 Corinthians 4 "Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written"

You are in error my friend. If you can't prove what you say is actually written, it is not to be received with God speed at all.

It is not valid. Get in this bible and read exactly what you are saying.

"Paul also distinguished the Holy Spirit from the Father

Paul doesn't treat the Holy Spirit as just another name for the Father. The man he baptized knew the Father but not the Spirit."

Nothing was read that Paul said the Father is not the Holy Spirit because in 1 Corinthians 6 and 2 Corinthians 6 , it teaches the temple of God is the temple of the holy Spirit and God the holy Spirit said he will be a FATHER unto them that is the temple he dwells.

Now I believe you believe we have more than one Father that is God but unfortunately Paul already told you there is ONE GOD THE FATHER . Not more than one. So Paul a disciple , if you don't hear him, you're not hearing JESUS.

"Mal, did you receive the Holy Spirit? I don't think so."

Hey if you want to get personal, let's go there. It'll tie into the topic I have out now if it's not expired.

Topic is "Can you sin and go on sinning in Christ being born of God ?"

I'll use my own testimony to prove my point according to the scripture.

So let me know and we can reason .

"Paul shows the different persons, not just lumping them together as different modes or titles."

Why does not Paul say it in writing?

See because the scripture say "so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written".

So why are you saying more or beyond what written scripture is in your explanation?

Just repent.

"Spirit does not limit personhood. Sprit is not the same as person. Also, why doesn't con believe in 7 spirits of God, like in Revelation? Does con believe in multiple spirits but not persons? "

Scripture say speak on what you know so you need to repent again for acting as you know I don't believe the scripture teaches the seven spirits of God.

First of all, all you're doing is pitting scripture against scripture trying to either make it contradict and or waver your position of ONE GOD which is spirit.

JESUS SAID A SPIRIT. HE DIDN'T SAY SPIRITS.

So you making a fool out of yourself trying to have John I believe that is speaking about the seven spirits of God with John 4 saying God is a spirit.

You're making shipwreck of these scriptures not rightly dividing because you need to be taught. Wherever you got this trinitarian doctrine from, that blind person, whoever, just made you blind falling into a ditch.

"I don't say God is a person but three persons. In the Bible, we hear three persons who are called God."

Go in the bible and read three persons. You doing all these other actions but to READ.

Scripture says

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words "

You actually have to read these words as well as hearing and doing.

"One essence. But what are the three?"

ONE GOD. See, even with this we didn't read what you just said. Why is it this hard to just read what the Bible says?

The Father is ONE GOD. When it comes to ONE, when it comes to the Father, there's only one God , one spirit, one Lord, the HOLY ONE ......ONE......ONE....ONE....of Israel.

All written scripture. See....I get scripture that tells you what one always refers to to.

What did you do? You told me what your trinitarian doctrine rehearses you to say according to its man made structure.

This is why you flee from many of my points and questions. You flee where no wise man pursue.

"The spirit, water, and blood are not three different modes or titles? They are distinct from one another. Why do the Father, Word, and Spirit suddenly just become different titles?"

If I were you, I wouldn't run to all these other scriptures where you left shipwreck of the ones you thought helped. Let alone these other ones.

"This verses supports the Trinity. 3 in 1. The Trinity has 3 and 1. We all know where the 1 is in con's theology, but where is the 3?"

My theology is Paul saying One God the Father. You find an apostle that said the Father is one person of God is three persons.

Find that , otherwise you got your mouth stopped according to Titus 1 with all that falsehood.

Jesus didn't even say God was three persons nor did he say he was the second person.

So why are you not saying what he said?

How is he Lord not doing what he say?

You not doing truth. So you're still blind in darkness not coming to the light and I'm trying to help you. Trying to sharpen iron.

"Grammar is about words. If you throw out grammar, how can you even understand this debate or the Bible?

First, second, and third person refer to pronouns that are indeed used in the Bible. (me, thee, he, ye, we.)"

I'm not going to keep saying it. You got no scripture that says the Father is a person and the son is a second person.

You don't have any witnesses, not Jesus nor the rest of the apostles.

I don't want man's philosophy and tradition. That's why the scriptures say to beware of that. Got you snared .

"Here's some verses:

God is talking to another divine person, the Son. The Son is called God and the Father is called God. Yet there is only one God.

Jesus prays to the Father to send another helper. No one prays to himself. "Another" implies another person. 3 persons right there."

Like the Bible say, I just have to be rude in speech. It's like your dumb or don't understand English.

God nowhere called himself first person, and the son another person or second person.

You just ain't saying nothing. All empty words.

You can't get scripture that says what you say. So you hide behind "implies"...."shows"...and all this other unfaithfulness in which the scripture told you not to go beyond than what's written.

If it's not written, it's not bible.

"Where is modalism in the Bible? Con just uses tactics and tries to make his interpretation seem like just the Bible. Con thinks the Bible is easy to understand, but it's not. Con should stop acting like he was the first person to read the Bible. He should stop claiming to be unbiased. He applies his own interpretation into every verse. The Church removes personal interpretation and can infallibly say what the Bible says. Jesus said the Spirit would lead us into all truth. We arrived at Trinitarianism with the council, just as the Spirit promised us. Sabellius (the first modalist) was excommunicated a century before the first ecumenical council. Con rejects the Church Jesus gave us:"

You need to talk to somebody that said modalism.

That's your ongoing issue . Not only do you add things into discussion that wasn't broached by me so you end up bearing false witness but you do the same error with the bible which is wayyyyyyyyyyyy worse.

I'm being, I've been patient with you....... scripture says........" Is it too small a thing for you to try the patience of men, but will you try the patience of my God as well?"

I'm not enough with you misrepresenting my words, now the words of God...

Scripture say " Therefore, rejecting all falsity".

Of course I reject your doctrine not of Jesus because Jesus didn't say what you been saying so as the scripture say...."receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed".

I rest my case.

Case closed. Opposing side forfeited.