Holidays are mere secular religions

Please quote exactly. Do not rephrase or reinterpret. Answer all questions directly. Failure to comply with all this is an automatic forfeit.

Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Round 1

1 of 5

Mal

Pro #1

Holidays are mere secular religions, why?

They were invented by a secular society. A society that is not of any spiritual religion.

Holidays are typically national recognitions in government and law.

Not by spiritual law and practice. This can't be done with government particularly in this day and fashion 2026.

Religions are belief systems.

These holidays are mere belief systems in place where those of secular society believe in and practice religiously.

These are the customs of the people.

So New Years, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween, Veterans day, Labor Day , a independence day, memorial day, Easter, st. Patrick's Day, Valentine's day, Martin Luther King Jr day, President's day, even Juneteenth .

So I'll leave it there. Pretty straightforward.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #2

Definitions of secular:

: of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world

: not overtly or specifically religious

: of or relating to the government rather than the church

: organized around impersonal and utilitarian values and patterns and not receptive to new traits

Definitions of religious:

: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity

: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

: scrupulously and conscientiously faithful

Religious and secular are opposites. Secular religions cannot even exist. How do you expect holidays to be something when that something doesn't even exist?

Holidays are often about what people don't even believe. Many people celebrate holidays with Santa, the Easter Bunny, leprechauns, and Cupid, but they don't actually believe in these figures. Many non-Christians even celebrate Christmas and Easter. Holidays aren't "belief systems" because people celebrate things they don't even believe in.

Also, what kind of religion lasts for 24 hours and comes back every year? There can be holidays on the same day of the year, and some people celebrate both holidays in one day. Religions don't work like that. Many holidays compliment each other, but religions conflict with each other.

Round 2

2 of 5

Mal

Pro #3

Looks like this is a matter of how things are defined .

So based on how I defined and explained secular religions and what they are, is there any inconsistency within those standards that self refute within that position?

If so, please demonstrate.

Let's start there.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #4

It's not that hard to understand.

Secular and religious are opposites, so how can secular religions even exist?

Reducing religions to just belief systems oversimplifies things. Religions are about higher purpose and power. Merriam Webster gives: an organized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

Holidays aren't really belief systems. They aren't always things people believe. They aren't systems either.

Not all holidays are secular either. Some are religious. How can a religion be part of a religion? The rituals in religions aren't the religion itself.

You still never answered by question from last round. What kind of religion is on a time schedule, comes back every year on a specific day chosen ahead of time, and doesn't exist for most of the year? Sure, there may be religions that require things on specific days, but those days are not the religion itself. They are merely elements or practices of a religion. And if we're talking about secular holidays, they don't even come from any religion at all.

Round 3

3 of 5

Mal

Pro #5

"Secular and religious are opposites, so how can secular religions even exist?"

What I mean by secular is worldly.

What I mean by religion is a belief system.

So worldly belief system such as a holiday and belief in the practice thereof.

Now based on this foundation, you have to find inconsistency in my points based on those terms , not on your terms but my terms.

"How can a religion be part of a religion? "

Based on what I mean, you have to find inconsistency in my points based on my premise , not your premise but based on my stance.

"What kind of religion is on a time schedule, comes back every year on a specific day chosen ahead of time, and doesn't exist for most of the year?"

Whatever one wishes to practice like that.

Religions aren't up to dictate for how they are to be practiced and believed in.

So far you've found no inconsistencies. You're arguing over how I'm defining the terms which is not up for debate.

You're coming across conflict based on how you define the terms. But the terms have been established from the first round founded in my position.

Based on how I define the terms, not how you define them, what would be the inconsistency?

Do you get it now?

SomeDebatePerson

Con #6

"What I mean by secular is worldly. What I mean by religion is a belief system."

It's not about what you mean but what the rest of the world means. You can't just create definitions so you can win debates.

Religion implies the spiritual world, so not every belief system and practice can be considered a religion.

"So worldly belief system such as a holiday and belief in the practice thereof."

Not all holidays are beliefs. People can celebrate things that don't believe in. Some holidays have nothing to do with religion at all.

"Whatever one wishes to practice like that. Religions aren't up to dictate for how they are to be practiced and believed in."

Holidays only last 24 hours and come back every year. Religions don't last 24 hours and come back yearly.

Holidays can be parts of a religion, but they are not the religion itself. Religions have holidays, but they aren't the holidays themselves.

Round 4

4 of 5

Mal

Pro #7

"It's not about what you mean but what the rest of the world means. "

You're not debating the rest of the world son. You got it twisted. You debating me son.

If you attempt to argue positions based on the rest of the world, you're not debating mine.

It's a strawman. Now you weren't prepared. Take a week or two, whatever, the time allowed, to counter anything I've said based on what I said .

"You can't just create definitions so you can win debates."

I'll say it again. You're still not getting it. It's on you .....to find.....the inconsistency....based on what I said like any consistencies I have found in your points used to refute you.

It's like Aikido. Either you know how to do it or commit seppuku.

"People can celebrate things that don't believe in."

This makes no sense. You don't celebrate what you don't believe in celebrating.

"Religions don't last 24 hours and come back yearly."

If a person believes in a 24 hour annual religion practice, you are absolutely nobody to dictate how that person believes in it .

I'm not arguing over definitions like I say.

You got two more chances to find an inconsistency based on my terms or concede you can't find any .

SomeDebatePerson

Con #8

"You're not debating the rest of the world son. You got it twisted. You debating me son."

My point is you can't just make up definitions. It might make sense in your world but not the real world. Just because this is a personal debate between people doesn't mean our definitions can only make sense to us.

"This makes no sense. You don't celebrate what you don't believe in celebrating."

Exactly. It's not supposed to make sense, yet people do this all the time. This proves that holidays aren't always connected to what people actually believe. Holidays are not belief systems.

"If a person believes in a 24 hour annual religion practice, you are absolutely nobody to dictate how that person believes in it."

Religious practices can be based on time but not a religion itself. How is a religion supposed to stop and then come back that quickly? You said religions were belief systems, and people can't choose what they believe in. People don't believe things for one day and stop the next day and have it come back every year on a set schedule.

Round 5

5 of 5

Mal

Pro #9

Reach out to me first to understand the topic and the position better prior to accepting the debate .

Good chance you would of passed.

By the way , when I say celebrate, it means in believing in honoring and observing. In order to do an action or one such as, it's an operation of belief because that's where it starts from. No belief, no thought process to celebrate anything.

Rocks don't celebrate because there's no thought process or faculty of consideration to do.

You've brought nothing to demonstrate any inconsistency. You're bickering over definitions.

This debate NEVER really took off.

Case closed.

SomeDebatePerson

Con #10

FORFEITED

Kohai Administrator

--> @Mal, @Kohai, @SomeDebatePerson

>Reported Vote: Kohai // Mod action: Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Voted for: tie
>Reason for Decision: other
>Reason for Mod Action:
Test

Kohai Administrator

---Kohai's former vote---
Voted for: tie
Test test

fauxlaw Global Moderator

Criterion	Pro	Tie	Con
Winner

Reason:

This debate contains no Description other than a typical non-specific-to-this-debate word salad of rules that is not in the least descriptive of the Topic; a failure by P)ro to provide.

Pro begins R1 with a non-sequitur statement re: "Holidays" being "secular religion" creations. What is a "secular religion" since "secular" means a societal condition lacking religious, spiritual, or sectarian issues.[Con will argue this point] Pro's entire R1 is a repetition of this self-defeating language, trying to tie opposing principles together in an effort to prove his BoP [burden of proof - the Topic] that "Holidays are mere secular religions."

Con's R1 applies definitions of "secular" ["of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world," and "not overtly or specifically religious"] and "religious" ["of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances," and "scrupulously and conscientiously faithful"]. Such definitions provide that which Pro declined to offer, and should have, as Instigator. Then, Con offered two salient argumentative rebuttals: "Religious and secular are opposites. Secular religions cannot even exist." By definition, both arguments support the Contender's BoP, against the Topic.

Pro's R2 begins: "Looks like this is a matter of how things are defined." My voting reaction [excuse my French] is "No shit! Where was that statement in Pro's R1, let alone in the Description?? Pro follows with "So based on how I defined and explained secular religions and what they are..," Defined? Where? Not only were these terms not defined by Pro, as noted by Con, they are conflicting terms that cannot, by definition, mutually exist.

Con's R2 doubles-down on his R1: "Secular and religious are opposites, so how can secular religions even exist?" Con closes R2 with another rebuttal: "if we're talking about secular holidays, they don't even come from any religion at all," having already noted in R1 that some holidays celebrate the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus, which are not religious icons, and adults do not really believe these character exist, so, no belief system is involved.

Pro's R3 finally offers definitions of "secular" [worldly] and "religion" [belief system], and then declares Con must "...based on this foundation, you have to find inconsistency in my points based on those terms ..." Pray, tell how Con should have done that, given that Con did not have "this foundation" to respond to in R1 & 2? That "foundation," as judged by this voter, was missing in the debate challenge, let alone in R1 or 2. Failure by Pro.

The rest of the debate is repetition of these back-and-forths until Pro admits in R5, "This debate NEVER really took off.." Indeed, it did not, and that I place at Pro's door for lacking a foundational challenge that gave more than generic rules. Con's forfeit of R5 is not sufficient to penalize the other four rounds of argument.

I award the debate to Con for superiority of addressing the Topic and his BoP by contrary logical argument against the Topic.

Leaning Global Moderator

Criterion	Pro	Tie	Con
Winner

Reason:

RFV,
I just think the debate got stuck on disagreement of framework and starting conditions.
Though parts of title concept were debated, I think the debate stalled.

Both sides make some fair points,
I think Con arguments have 'slightly more weight, but they ignored Pro's arguments too much, Con also forfeited last round.
Eh, evens out to tie, feels like.

Title
Is an interesting concept, line between religion and culture can be blurry, or not at all.

Mal Round 1
Is being invented by secular society 'enough though, to qualify it as a religion?
Are customs and clothes religion or culture?
I also assume governments are still creating new holidays in 2026.
. . . Are 'all holidays secular religion, or only 'some?

SomeDebatePerson Round 1
Definitions of secular don't help too much, though one 'does say,
"b: not overtly or specifically religious"
Secular Religions are 'commonly accepted to exist.
Arguably debate itself makes assumption of it.
If debate was is USSR example of Communism, one could try arguing that Communism doesn't exist, but that seems an odd tact.
Still, Con makes an attempt of it.

Holidays such as Santa Christmas, still have values, ideas, ideals. Such as gift gicing or charity Santa ringing bell, control of behavior, be good or Santa won't reward you.

Still,
"Also, what kind of religion lasts for 24 hours and comes back every year?" is an interesting arguement. . . Some religions do have specified days of fasting once per year or so, and Christmas in a more Christian sense no presents, might still be practiced once a year.
But question 'does pop up then, one might not say the day of fasting in a religion 'is the religion.

Mal Round 2
Feels a bit wasted.

SomeDebatePerson Round 2
Insists his arguments are valid.
Adds bit more thought.

Mal Round 3
Arguably, definitions are best placed in the debate description.
Agreeably, debates can be about whether dictionary definitions are most valid.
But 'really Mal can just use dictionary themself to show Secular Religions as a common concept, and argue acceptence of such was implied.
Or use Cons own definitions against Con.

"Whatever one wishes to practice like that."
Fair, there's nothing 'stopping such a religion from existing.

SomeDebatePerson Round 3
Argues definitions should be what is commonly defined, not personal.
I don't think Religion 'has to have spiritual world.

"Not all holidays are beliefs."
Better, more on topic.

Mal Round 4
Debate has clearly devolved into disagreement on terms of debate.
Argues religions 'can be 24 hours once a year.
Hm, what about the rest of the year then? Can a person have more than one religion then?

SomeDebatePerson Round 4
I'm not against definitions, but sometimes definitions change or are disputed as accurate.
Arguably many though not all people believe in various holidays.

Mal Round 5
I 'do think there is a difference between beliefs and customs.
But SomeDebatePerson seemed mainly to disagree with concept of Secular Religion existing in any form.

SomeDebatePerson Round 5
Forfeits round.

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Round 4

Round 5

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