Police brutality does not exist

Finished #war #police #hate
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Pro Instigator Opens first
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0
Mal
Rating
1390
Debates
469
Win rate
45.52%
Con Contender Winner
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3
Rating
1548
Debates
7
Win rate
100.00%
Verdict Ultracrepidarian wins · 3 points
Mal Pro
0
Ultracrepidarian Con
3

After 3 votes (0 ties) — 3 points ahead

Please quote exactly. Do not rephrase or reinterpret. Answer all questions directly. Failure to comply with all this is an automatic forfeit. Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.

Round 1

1 of 5
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Mal
Pro #1

Testing 123 Testing.

I'll yield the floor this round, we'll start the debate next round. 

Round 2

2 of 5
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Mal
Pro #3

My position is there is no such thing as police brutality.

By definition, law enforcement officers which are police officers, they enforce the law.

So, it is an oxymoron with an officer that enforces the law and at the same time doesn't.

I know it's a contradiction to what the law is for which is supposed to keep civility and order.

Officers supposed to protect and serve the people in emergency and police related type matters.

To use the expression "police brutality" is a perpetuated colloquial usage of phrase.


It's really a misnomer like the phrase "civil war". Is anything about a war which is killing folks and destruction , is any of that "civil"?


Now you can call it civil because it's happening in your own backyard. Bloodshed and slaughter is bloodshed and slaughter when you get down to it.


There is no law that I know that mandates brute force.


Now once a police officer that acts outside of what is to be enforced, that person by nature is no longer an officer.


That person is no longer operating within the law within the jurisdiction that they are expected to carry out.


Now for instance if you are a catholic or christian or muslim, once you stop practicing what makes you one to belong to any of these sects, you're no longer of that.


That's another point. Many people say that they're something they're not even practicing to make themselves be that.

You can't be a practitioner without practicing really.


This points us back to the police. People tend to still refer to individuals that don't practice justice as them that enforce justice.


A person by the name of Neely Fuller Jr. put it this way. He's the author of the code book. A short title because it's actually a long title to that book. He says a person with the title "police officer" that acts to mistreat you based on the color of your skin is actually what's called a "race soldier".


Basically a "race soldier", basically who can be referred to as a "white" supremacist. That is basically the identification of these "race" soldiers, typically.


So it's not a police officer. A person with the title doctor that performs euthanasia or even abortion of all kinds is not a doctor. A doctor in origin is to heal. Not to treat with drugs to live life drugged up or drugged into lethal sleep.


I can yield right here but for more information regarding "race soldier", upon doing a search on the Google search engine, it's in the urban dictionary, the website shows the following:


"Race soldier, any white racist who shows an unusual diabolical zeal to engage in the practice of white supremacy. These actions are likely to but do not necessarily include direct violence against black people or people who are not white. It's likely that race soldiers will violently oppose any civil unrest that stems from the police brutality protest."


I say don't protest police. I understand there's a lot of protest going on and down through history.

The police are the ones who come to your aid and your protection.


Now someone posing and impersonating an officer will be revealed when exclaiming " police brutality".


We see that person as just an imposter of an officer.


I'll leave it there.





Introduction


Thanks Mall for the debate!


First, we need to establish a definition for "police brutality" Britannica defines police brutality in the US as:

"the unwarranted or excessive and often illegal use of force against civilians by U.S. police officers."


My opponent argues

"once a police officer that acts outside of what is to be enforced, that person by nature is no longer an officer."

They concede police officers commit brutal acts, but argue once these brutal acts are undergone the aggressor is no longer a police officer, making police brutality impossible.


The mistake here, as I see it, is that police officer ≠ law enforcer. While a police officer is meant to be a law enforcer, and generally are, they are still capable of breaking the law and remaining a police officer.



Round 3

3 of 5
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Mal
Pro #5

The simple straightforward issue is, the title is intact while the nature isn't.


I am not actually what I say I am or as my title identifies. I merely just being called something I'm not.


What is law enforcement?


How am I enforcing the law while breaking it?


It is an oxymoron. The phrase police brutality is indeed an oxymoron. The oxymoron exists in language. That's how we're aware of it is by its existence.


That's just it. The language exists. But the actual being doesn't exist. A law enforcement police officer logically cannot be brutal because there is no law to be brutal.


That's the only way the opposing side can show a law enforcer being brutal. Through what the law says.


Once a law enforcer acts outside the law, it is at that moment, the person is no longer an enforcer if we are going to be honest about the definition of an enforcer or else we'd be telling a lie about what an enforcer is.

Of course the person is an actual law enforcer the instance before stepping outside because that is what the person was, an enforcer of law.


A so called airline pilot that does not fly airplanes is nominally wearing the title but is not actually piloting of any aircraft.


How can I be something I'm not or not doing?


If I'm not doing something, it would be false to characterize me as a doer of that thing, let along label me that. It be labeling falsely.


If law enforcement police officers were brutal, why would anyone contact them for aid and protection?


So called brutal police are just that. They're only called that being the imposters they are with a status , not with a true assigned duty.


I explained clearly I believe that police officers are law enforcement officers.


How can you be something you're not or don't do?


You can't. You can't be a breathing organism that does not take a breath. You cannot be enforcing the law without enforcing the law. You would not be an enforcer.


A person that is doing something unjustified, illegal and we say "yes that legal person is doing the illegal" is as oxymoronic as they come.


I rest my case.

Seems like this debate boils down to what it means to be a police officer.


Pro's definition

A police officer directly equals perfect law enforcement.


My definition

My definition, and the definition that is far more widely accepted, is an individual that works for a law enforcement agency. Even if they use excessive or unnecessary force they can still remain a police officer, continuing to work under the agency and in all regards still be considered an officer.


My argument

Take this scenario; a police officer uses a slightly excessive amount of force. They're reprimanded for it but remain serving under law enforcement. This is a completely possible scenario in which police brutality occurs.

Round 4

4 of 5
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Mal
Pro #7

"A police officer directly equals perfect law enforcement."


Just law enforcement. You can't enforce the law by breaking the law at the same time.


"Police brutality " is strictly a colloquial expression. It doesn't exist. It's an oxymoron. It's declared as an oxymoron. It's able to be declared as an oxymoron because people use the language.


You can be holding the title and or be classified or employed as something you're not in nature or by duty. You're an imposter or posing as such . You can't be a firefighter that will not fight a fire amidst a fire. You cannot be a pilot that will not fly amidst of being at the controls not flying the aircraft.


It's about the nature being there. We know the classification is there because that's how we determine where the oxymoron comes in .


I rest my case.



Police brutality refers to law enforcement officers (Whom I call police) using excessive force, such as the murder of George Floyd. By all prevalent definitions police brutality does exist.


If your definition of police is a flawless law enforcement entity, that's something you needed to define before the debate because that is not how the word is used anywhere else.


I hate that this has become a squabble over definitions but it is what it is.

Round 5

5 of 5
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Mal
Pro #9

In other words, according to the rationale I demonstrated about law enforcement, the topic statement is true.


The opposite side so called is not arguing or countering that. The opposite side so called is acknowledging the colloquial oxymoron exists and it is used by society which is also in agreement with what I said.


It's important to distinct the two. The colloquial oxymoron exists. Never said it didn't. The topic statement didn't say it didn't.


This is a matter of paying attention to words and if you don't know something, you ask. You take the challenge, you ask.


It is illogical to debate definitions. I don't do that. When you debate, you have to be sharp enough to think ahead about what a person may mean . When you take the challenge, you take the risk of being refuted or conceded or any technicality. You got to be sharp versus being rehearsed.


I'm sure that the voters will agree with me that a police officer can use excessive force, and even though they are not a perfect embodiment of law enforcement, continue to be recognized and treated as a police officer in all regards.


It is assumed that if one does not provide an alternative definition for a word the colloquial definition is to be used. That's how language works. When people say police officer, they mean an individual that serves as and is recognized as, well, a police officer.


No human, including law enforcers, are perfect, and so it is not only possible but inevitable that there are incidents of a police officer using excessive force. This isn't an oxymoron, this is police brutality.


So, I end with asking every voter this question; is it a logical impossibility for a police officer to use excessive force?


Vote Con!

New comment

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#15
--> @melcharaz

I'm not "weighing." It's a subjective assessment. Considering that its being a troll debate dramatically lowers the voting standards, circumstances where it is applied have to be relatively clear and widely accepted.

This is the way Mal debates, often with these kinds of topics. He nonetheless pursues his arguments (usually) seriously, as his opponent clearly did here.

I'm not arguing whom you should award points to nor why.

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•••
#14
--> @whiteflame

Again. How do you weigh that they are taking it seriously? What proof do you have?

As far as i can tell the instigator is just doing ramblings based on feelings and philosophy. Would you rather i vote contender because he puts more effort into it? More effort into a debate founded on a lie?

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#13
--> @melcharaz

Yes, I am sure that you can't just award a tie on the basis that the topic is a tautology. That doesn't automatically make it a troll debate. Pointing out that the instigator doubles down on fallacies and misnomers doesn't make it a troll debate. If you don't think it's serious because everything surrounding the topic just seems so absurd, that's fine, but setup alone doesn't make a debate a troll debate so long as the debaters are taking seriously, even if you personally can't.

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•••
#12
--> @whiteflame

"If you believe otherwise, point to specific arguments made that establish trolling behavior."

Sure.

Instigator says "My position is there is no such thing as police brutality."

Which is objectively false, he then does not give any sources to defend this, of there is an objectality to something, it is reasonable to expect imperical data.

Instead instigator asserts its a misnomer.
He then uses a proof by example fallacy. "That's another point. Many people say that they're something they're not even practicing to make themselves be that.

You can't be a practitioner without practicing really."

I will not dispute that contender put in more effort in an attempt to define the title, but ultimately i cannot weigh the seriousness of the whole debate because the contender takes it seriously in their efforts. The foundation is faulty, the whole building collapses, even if the pillars are steel.

All mal does after that is introduce silophism the likes of which jordan peterson would applaud and introduces philosophical ranting.


So are you sure i cant vote that this is NOT in good faith?

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#11
--> @melcharaz

Both sides argued in good faith from where I'm sitting. You may think the topic itself is inherently trolling, but both sides approached the topic seriously, without joking or making light of the issue. If you believe otherwise, point to specific arguments made that establish trolling behavior.

There isn't a specific set of standards, but when multiple other voters are treating this as a serious debate, it's not up to any single voter to decide this is suddenly a troll debate. And if you don't think you're up to the task of voting on it, the answer is simple: don't vote.

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•••
#10
--> @whiteflame

How do you weigh that this isnt a troll debate?

Set forth the standards for how you weigh it clearly.

I cannot weigh points logically based on a fallacy.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#9
--> @Mal, @Ultracrepidarian, @melcharaz

<p>>Reported Vote: melcharaz // Mod action: Removed</p>
<p>>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy</p>
<p>>Voted for: tie</p>
<p>>Reason for Decision: fails-to-analyze</p>
<p>>Reason for Mod Action:</p>
<p>I understand viewing the topic as a tautology, but this was clearly not argued as a troll debate, so the voting standard remains the same for this as for others, and the voter is still required to analyze points given in the debate. Being incredulous and frustrated that the topic was not something different is not sufficient basis for awarding a tie. The voter must evaluate arguments as presented and not merely dismiss them entirely based on frustration with the topic.</p>

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#8

<p>---melcharaz's former vote---</p>
<p>Voted for: tie</p>
<p>Title is "Police brutality does not exist" this has been objectively disproven through data.

How anyone can vote anything but neither or tie is beyond me.

This is obviously a troll debate. Even one of the tests in voting policy is similar to this.

It should have been "what is the scope/influence of police brutality?" At least then the other votes of con are more reasonable.

This is alternate truth fallacy title.</p>

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Mal
•••
#7

People have been successfully brainwashed to believe a law enforcement officer is the same as a law breaker.

People don't get that colloquial oxymorons exist. That's the point.

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#6
--> @Mal, @FLRW, @Ultracrepidarian

<p>>Reported Vote: FLRW // Mod action: Removed</p>
<p>>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy</p>
<p>>Voted for: con</p>
<p>>Reason for Decision: fails-to-analyze</p>
<p>>Reason for Mod Action:</p>
<p>Quoting from the debate is not enough. The voter must analyze the arguments made and explain how this quote / argument impacted the debate. </p>

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#5

<p>---FLRW's former vote---</p>
<p>Voted for: con</p>
<p>Con's statement in round 4 says it all. "Police brutality refers to law enforcement officers (Whom I call police) using excessive force, such as the murder of George Floyd. By all prevalent definitions police brutality does exist."</p>

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•••
#4

Looks like we won't find out who wins this one until Feb 7, 2026...

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•••
#3

I don't trust government police officers, although they treat autistic persons pretty well. They are used to dealing with child sex predators and the moment they find out about some kid running their mouth who thought of things they would never be able too, they're relieved.

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•••
#2
--> @Mal

I can't access the account I accepted this debate on. If you create another challenge I will accept

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Mal
•••
#1

Testing 123

SR
SR
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro effectively seals his loss via concession by saying - "once a police officer that acts outside of what is to be enforced, that person by nature is no longer an officer."

Con catches this concession and refutes well, stating - "They concede police officers commit brutal acts, but argue once these brutal acts are undergone the aggressor is no longer a police officer, making police brutality impossible."

Essentially,

Pro's argument laid upon - "You're not an officer if you go against the law".
Con's argument laid upon - "An officer can still remain in his role after going against the law, making police brutality real".

This one's not even close....
Con wins by a mile.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw Global Moderator
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro had opportunity, but did not use it, to offer definition of the keyword of the debate: "brutality," leaving definition to be developed over the course of the debate. Than, having effectively forfeited R1 of any argument, ["testing" is no debate argument], fails to try definition of same to re-begin the debate in R2.

Pro's R2 has a number of disconnects:
"So, it is an oxymoron with an officer that enforces the law and at the same time doesn't." This statement ignores the potential for the law to allow enforcement of law by "brutality" should no other action suffice; again leaving definition up to... whom? When?

Then: "It's really a misnomer like the phrase 'civil war'. Is anything about a war which is killing folks and destruction. Is any of that 'civil"?'" Again, Pro fails to define what is meant by "civil." In the case of keeping peace in society, yes, that is a police officer's duty, but there is no consideration of peace in war; a "civil war" is simply separate people of a society going to war with one another over a disagreeable issue, an entirely different concept of "civil."

Then, "There is no law that I know that mandates brute force." Pro makes no attempt to offer any credible source to substantiate the claim. A referenced source might have offered support for the claim. As it is, it is rebuttalable opinion.

Then, "...Now once a police officer that acts outside of what is to be enforced, that person by nature is no longer an officer." This claim makes no relatable reference to brutality, and therefore hang's itself as an argument. Worse, this is an admission of effective loss of debate since, no longer being an officer, that officer cannot be brutal in the role of an officer. The debate essentially ends on that admission, alone, as a poorly worded argument.

Con's R2 settles these disconnects by rebuttal, addressing both issues of Pro's ill-stated claim in the middle of his R2 argument [lack of definition of "brutality" and my last of Pro's statements] by citing the very same issues. Con offered an encyclopedic definition of brutality, and related it to "police brutality," and, by citing Pro's commentary regarding an officer's actions rendering him no longer an officer with the same result as my judgment of
Pro's ill-fated statement in R2.

Con wins the debate.

Ragnar
Ragnar Global Moderator
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro builds a case around No True Police Officer...
https://debate.miraheze.org/wiki/No_True_Citizen

Con disagrees with officers as they exist actually being the perfection pro demands of them, later in the debate even calling out a famous murder which was caught on film and carried out by a police officer (one who should not have been one for quite awhile before that incident).

In a perfect world their badges would fall off or crumble when they break the law, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the world we live in; so police brutality unfortunately exists even if it should not.