Resolved: In a democracy, voting ought to be mandatory

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2½
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1525
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4
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½
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1479
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2
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Verdict whiteflame wins · 2 points
whiteflame Pro
2½
Magoroth Con
½

After 3 votes (1 tie) — 2 points ahead

Burden of proof

Shared

Pro needs to argue that democracies are better off with mandatory voting and con needs to argue that, at minimum, democracy works better under voluntary voting.

Definitions

Democracy
a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.
Mandatory
required by law or rules; compulsory.
Vote
a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.
In recent years many have argued that voting ought to become mandatory. Several democratic nations, like Australia, already mandate voting for all citizens. The question extends to whether or not all democracies ought to adopt the same framework where every citizen is compelled to vote.

Round 1

1 of 3
avatar
whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #1

Looking forward to this debate, Magoroth.


I’ll start by clarifying what this debate is about. As it says in the description, this debate is pretty generalized, focusing on “whether or not all democracies ought to adopt the same framework where every citizen is compelled to vote.” This isn’t a question of specific policies, though I will present the uniting features such policies should entail, nor is it about any single country or region. It’s a topic that covers democracies as a whole with explicit recognition of the variety therein. I recognize that not all democracies are built identically and, especially given that they are democracies and thus systems of government built by the people for the people, the specifics of how voting mandates are designed and implemented should be laid out by elected representatives. To that end, while these elements do need some clarification, the inherent barriers to implementing mandatory voting are not. This is an “ought” resolution, so the focus is on whether the outcomes of implementing mandatory voting is better than the outcomes of voluntary voting systems.


Also of note is the shared burdens in this debate. Both mandatory and voluntary voting systems exist in democracies in the world today. Both my opponent’s and my positions are equal and opposite: we must show that, on balance, either the mandatory (me) or voluntary (Magoroth) voting system are better for democracies worldwide.


With that, I’ll move into my model.


  1. Voters would be required to either cast a mail-in ballot or appear in person to cast a vote for national elections, noting that protest votes of all kinds (blank and spoiled ballots) are allowed
  2. There would be necessary exemptions for injury, illness, infirmity or emergency
  3. To address obligations like work and school, countries would make voting day a federal holiday
  4. Similarly, voters would be automatically registered to vote upon reaching the appropriate age
  5. Failure to vote would result in a minor fine


There’s a lot here, but this is meant to specify a very simple case: democracies should implement compulsory voting with clear enforcement mechanisms and remove impediments to voting.

A couple of important notes.


  1. Since planks 3 and 4 are not exclusive to a mandatory voting system, my case will not derive any impact from them. Con is welcome to argue against them if he wishes, or he can permute either or both of them for the purposes of this debate, since voluntary voting systems could employ the same measures. My model includes these planks to comport with the requirements implied by requiring people to vote, since a government would necessarily have to address built-in impediments that prevent people from voting in a system where voting is mandatory.


  1. Regarding plank 5, I am not ascribing a specific monetary figure to this and countries would necessarily be able to decide how enforcement is carried out. Fines aren’t the only means of penalizing non-voters in countries with compulsory voting, with “nonmonetary sanctions for abstention, such as ineligibility for passport services or state-sponsored qualification exams” being possible alternatives. My focus from here on will be on the fine, but my case isn’t reliant on the fine as a means of enforcement.


My framework is democratic legitimacy.


Democracies are granted legitimacy by the whole population - not a subset thereof, not a sliver of the voting public, but by the entirety of it. The government of any democracy is, by definition, meant to represent the interests of the entire population, not just the most outspoken and invested. A more representative democracy is inherently more healthy and legitimate, recognizing the will of the whole electorate and not just a more vocal, often fringe minority.


That legitimacy is essential to how democracies function: citizens accept that the government they elect has authority, which fosters stability and compliance with laws. It’s the reason we submit to paying taxes and the reason most of us aren’t out in the streets with torches and pitchforks (I can’t speak for Steve). By casting ballots and going through the laborious and time-consuming process of counting them and tallying the results, citizens vest trust in their government to make difficult choices. Lower participation reduces that trust and thus results in a democracy that functionally doesn’t represent nor earn the recognition of the people.



With that established, my case breaks down to three interconnected points.


1. Mandatory voting increases turnout


Voter turnout in elections has declined substantially over the course of previous decades, leading to disengagement and apathy with the political system. Ironically, “as democracy has expanded across countries, electoral participation has declined… The poorest are least likely to participate in the democratic process, and this is particularly true when overall participation is low. Low and unequal turnout then leads to ever more excluded communities with politicians engaging with the groups they perceive to be their active supporters.


A fine is a strong incentive for people to cast their ballots, ergo more people in democracies will do so. “A few studies in countries as diverse as Switzerland, Brazil, and Australia have shown that even with small fines for non-voting or low enforcement of penalties, electoral participation is significantly higher under compulsory voting.” Voter turnout per country is often higher than those with entirely voluntary voting, with outliers like Greece showcasing the effects of unenforced penalties.


2. Increased turnout improves representation


Politicians need to get elected, and the more voters there are from a broader swath of the population, the more people those same politicians have to court and subsequently represent in office. A mandatory voting system means they can no longer rely on “likely voters” to buoy them into office. Those representatives should have to court disaffected and apathetic voters and find ways to make them care enough to vote for them. 


Mandatory voting would also bolster voters. “[The requirement to vote] sends a clear message that there are rights and responsibilities. You have an obligation as a member of society: we’re all in this thing, and you can’t be a bystander.” Voting is active participation in the process of building and re-tooling the makeup of a government, and just as we are all compelled to pay taxes for the purpose of funding essential government functions, voters should be compelled to vote to ensure that the same government is at its most democratic. This would especially benefit disadvantaged groups that often don’t show up for elections, including women, minorities, and working-class citizens.


3. Improved representation legitimizes democracy


By adhering to the social contract inherent to all democracies and emphasizing the importance of every eligible voter playing an active role in the outcome of an election, we create a system that engenders more citizen buy-in since the outcomes (e.g. laws and policies of that government) comport better with a larger subset of the electorate. That yields a more stable government representing a more equal distribution of the population. That stability is crucial, since a government that fails to represent the people leads to more disaffection, resulting in lower turnout as apathy spreads. And this effect is worse among the poor, with the vast majority of the drop in voter turnout attributed to them, engendering huge rifts between socioeconomic classes and further weakening social connections.


This can also lead to the collapse of democratic institutions and lead to the erosion of democracies. This is particularly bad for fledgling democracies like those in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which have seen the steepest declines in voter turnout. Many of these countries have effectively ceased to be democracies, falling to authoritarianism. As such, younger democracies would benefit most from mandatory voting, which sets the standard for engagement and establishes the legitimacy of their elected representatives early.



I welcome my opponent's case.

avatar Con #2

I welcome my opponent and I too look forward to this debate. An interesting topic.


I’ll begin by briefly stating that Pro addressed one of the issues I was thinking about prior to them posting their argument; namely, that of protest votes. I think it would be both fundamentally immoral and in a weird way also undemocratic for someone to be forced to vote for a candidate (any candidate, even), under certain circunstances. Imagine having to pick between Hitler and Stalin. Who do I pick? In a mandatory voting system that disallowed non-votes, people would be forced to break the law to vote with their conscience; in addition, those who wouldn’t go as far as breaking the law (which would likely be a substantial proportion of those who would otherwise have stayed home on election day), would have to legitimise either one of two (or more) absolutely terrible choices, and would undermine Pro’s point about mandatory voting strengthening democratic representation. I think Pro has proven that at minimum, mandatory voting should allow citizens not to vote.


However, I do not necessarily agree with the rest of my opponent’s points. I will address the points which I believe are at the heart of my opponent’s disagreement.


Firstly, Pro states that mandatory voting increases turnout. This is evidently true, but is this a good thing? Consider the type of person who is now being forced to vote. I argue that forcing turnouts will not induce people into doing more research before casting their vote. Many people who aren’t voting are likely politically disinterested and probably don’t pay much attention to politics.


Take the average teenager, for instance. Who will they vote for? Depending on if their parents are politically inclined or not, they may vote on nothing more than parental influence. Some will vote for a candidate just because their parents support that candidate, some for the opposite reason (as a rebellion sort of thing). This undermines democratic legitimacy because a vote will be cast which will be based on nothing but someone’s whims, and could easily be “the wrong” vote so to speak (I have not done this and I will not unless my opponent asks me clarify, but my position is that certain votes are 100%, objectively, the wrong vote to cast. I assume my opponent also holds this position so I won’t go any further into proving this).


I do not necessarily believe that just teenagers would be doing this. It is probable that this would happen regardless of age, it would simply be more pronounced in that group.


So in short my position here is that mandatory voting would force those who shouldn’t be voting into casting a vote, with unfavourable consequences for society.


Secondly, I’d like to point out that voting turnouts have been decreasing worldwide for several decades. Take Quebec for instance. It is now 60% where in the past it was much higher. This point I am trying to make is about the current situation, although it should apply in most relevant cases because mandatory voting is a (rather dire) solution that is proposed only when turnouts are low; if turnouts were high there would be minimal effect and there would be little reason to propose them, except for moral reasons (society viewing voting and/or political participation as a moral obligation, for instance).


I will first briefly state why I consider the solution to be dire; namely, it is because it is tantamount to forcing the individual to do something against their will, using the state apparatus. I argue that any society that does this is immoral. This is not the basis of a liberal sysem; in a liberal system, people are mostly free to do as they please, except when that directly infringes on someone else’s ability to do as they please in a way that the victim is unable to defend themselves against (think murder, robbery, etc). My opponent suggests fines for not going to vote. Okay, all well and good. But… if I don’t actually want to vote for anyone, why do I have to go to the ballot or even submit a mail-in ballot that says “hey politicians, go fuck yourselves”? It makes no difference in the end since I am doing the same thing; not voting. So why not skip the middlework and just let me stay home?


Back to a more relevant point, since this previous point was somewhat more nebulous and harder to argue against. My second main point is that instead of requiring mandatory voting - which, I have argued would simply muddy the waters of which party is most preferred, in addition to adding a bunch of voters who will cast their vote for stupid reasons (which could easily be abused by the most rhetorical or charming speakers rather than the best candidate - something which is already an issue with normal voting but would become an even larger one with mandatory voting), that political parties just get better at representing people’s wants and needs.


This is a rather complicated issue that is hard to debate since I can see many reasons why they aren’t representing interests properly; first, parties have started talking about either extreme, abstract, or irrelevant things, the people in the general populace who could represent issues that the average person actually cares about (I do not define average person to be working class; I am talking here about shit like climate change, which if you disbelieve climate change to be real, as I do, then to you that topic is completely irrelevant and talking about effectively nothing).


But, in brief, parties should just get better at representing the populace, or there need to be new parties. This would solve the turnout issue without forcing people to do anything.


Having to force people to do something is, in general, a sign that your solution is really last resort and you can’t do anything else.


One last main point I would add, which follows from my second point, is that mandatory voting benefits the main or dominant parties the most, since they are old and they have been in the public’s mind for years, and, as I said before, it is their failure that makes us even consider mandatory voting. It benefits their turnouts, not the hypothetical turnout of a hypothetically better party or group of parties. It may even serve as a screen for how much dissatisfaction there is with the current establishment; which would disincentivise people from establishing new ones; why try if you think there’s no chance?


I await my opponent’s case.

Round 2

2 of 3
avatar
whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #3

Thank you Con for providing your detailed position!


I’ll start by consolidating my points and then get into some rebuttals.


Con works with my democratic legitimacy framework and he doesn’t challenge my framing of it: that democracy is legitimized by a wider swath of the population voting in elections, and that only by maximizing the number of people who vote is trust vested in the results of those elections. He does present impacts that are tangentially related to democracy (e.g. freedom), but no way to weigh them.


I’ve also established and Con has conceded my solvency. The federal Election Day holiday (14% of the US electorate report being too busy or having a conflicting schedule) and automatic voter registration (in the US alone this would add up to 50 million people to the voter rolls) dovetail with the fine to increase voter turnout, which improves representation, which legitimizes democracy. Only compulsory voting can ”assure higher turnout virtually by itself”.


And the impacts of increased representation, specifically ensuring an equitable distribution of the population (as opposed to the differential turnout seen under voluntary voting), are substantial. In the US alone, “of the 63 million poor and low-income Americans who are eligible to vote, 34 million did not cast a ballot in the 2016 presidential election.” Preventing democratic breakdown addresses an even greater risk, since reduced voter turnout in many countries can and has resulted in authoritarian takeovers.



Onto Con’s arguments.


1. “The wrong vote[rs]”


Con puts two types of voters in this group: those who are uninformed and/or disinterested, and those who are easily swayed. Con argues that when these groups vote, theirs are “100%, objectively, the wrong vote to cast.”


A few responses.


First, whether it is a protest vote, a vote for an implausible candidate, or a vote for a major candidate, and for whatever reason, I’ll argue that none are objectively “wrong.” More legal participation in the democratic process is what makes that process healthy and legitimate, full stop. It is up to Con to demonstrate what “wrongness” is in this context, distinguish it from what is “right” or “correct,” and explain how it negatively impacts democratic legitimacy.


Second, all voters are variably informed, variably interested, and variably manipulable. People generally aren’t quizzed at polling stations on knowledge of or bias towards the candidates, nor on who informed your selection. These are nonunique to both voluntary and mandatory voting systems. Con claims that there will be “unfavorable consequences for society” (unclear what those are) resulting from “forcing those who shouldn’t be voting into casting a vote.” At best, this indicates that voluntary voting systems restrict these issues to a smaller population of voters who exhibit buy-in. Con will have to demonstrate that that population is less prone to “wrong” voting. At worst, voluntary voting systems are built to exclude voters, telling them as Con has that they “shouldn’t be voting", thus validating their apathy. This combined with reducing opportunities to vote and erecting roadblocks like registration is the antithesis of democratic legitimacy by discouraging participation in the democratic process. Con will have to justify how society benefits from these exclusionary practices.


Third, a mandatory system addresses these issues. Eligible voters are required to bear the responsibility of voting, they can no longer act as bystanders. The system demands buy-in. Mandatory voting also increases participation of uniquely disadvantaged groups, whose concerns are so thoroughly dismissed in voluntary voting systems that they feel disaffected and disengaged. Adding so many of their voices at once empowers them to make changes and shift representation to include them.


2. Mandatory voting is a “dire solution”


I’ll concede that shifting from a voluntary system to a mandatory one takes away an eligible voter’s right to choose whether to cast a ballot. That is a given.


Con frames this as a “dire solution,” defining that as “forcing the individual to do something against their will,” and that no one should be forced to do anything “except when that directly infringes” on the rights of others.


The word “dire” implies an unprecedented or at least unwarranted breach of rights, yet as I previously mentioned, we are compelled to pay taxes, which demand that individuals surrender both freedom and property. Freedoms can be and are abridged to ensure proper function of the government in democracies the world over. Ensuring democratic legitimacy is just as if not more important than keeping the lights on, and is only sufficiently achieved via mandate. Con will have to show that mandate harms democratic legitimacy or argue that there is some competing value that is more important, not just insinuate that it is nebulously “immoral” because it goes against "a liberal system," especially when that liberal system is contingent on democratic legitimacy.


Con also argues that to protest vote is functionally identical to not voting.


A protest vote is still participation, tangible evidence that the existing government and electoral system have fallen short. These can and do have dramatic effects on elections, shaping political narratives and highlighting lacking representation. Nonvoters, by contrast, represent an amalgamation of many reasons why one might choose not to vote. Only in a mandatory voting system are politicians consistently confronted with an engaged and diverse voting electorate that can support or reject them.


3. Mainly helps “main or dominant parties the most”


Con concludes that mandatory voting benefits only established parties because they are best known among the public.


This is false. A more equitable distribution of voters would necessarily change the demographics and policy focus of those voters. These are all voters who otherwise wouldn’t vote for anyone despite widespread knowledge of these candidates, so it doesn’t follow that they would all default to candidates who have upheld the very system that made them disaffected. If anything, the voluntary voting system ensures the dominance of these parties, as evidenced by the fact that those who volunteer continue to elect them. It is only through a seismic shift in the voting base (see: mandatory voting) that these parties could have to face meaningful competition.


4. Counterplan: just be more representative


Con argues that political parties should just become more representative of their constituents. This isn’t a competing model, it’s blue sky thinking without any explanation of the “how.” Political parties will change in unknown ways and/or add new parties in a wide range of democracies worldwide, becoming more representative. This is just solvency by fiat. The counterplan Con is proposing is too unclear to judge whether it would be effective. What changes would they make? How would those changes result in more representation? What prevents future changes that shift away from these measures?


Any system of voting would be improved by better representation, but mandatory voting creates an environment where those changes happen and stick around. “[C]ompulsion means that the battle is not, any more, to make sure that your supporters actually get to the polls, or to deter those of your opponents from doing so… but to ensure that of those who turn out, as many vote for you as possible.” It places the onus on parties to represent their constituents in their platforms first and foremost, and those same voters will hold political parties to task with their votes, whereas disaffected groups and minority interests would only become more vanishingly small in systems with voluntary voting.



Back over to you, Con.

Round 3

3 of 3
avatar
whiteflame Global Moderator
Pro #5

So I'm just going to go ahead and pass this round, leaving it up to Con to round things out. Voters, please treat this debate as a two-round debate and do not vote on the basis of Con's forfeit.

avatar Con #6

Pro states that I work with the framework he established in his first argument. What he says with respect to democratic legitimacy seems fishy to me, and I’ll state that not voting can itself a vote of some kind; you are either okay with whatever happens, you dislike all choices, or you are simply not informed enough to make a choice. Note that in the hypothetical system Pro envisions, people would still be allowed to make all of these choices, BUT:


a) People are more likely to actually pick a candidate if they have to show up at the polling station. This basically slightly undermines legitimacy since some people are making a choice they would otherwise not be making at all. They may have a slight preference for a candidate; in the old system their nonvote would clearly have shown “I despise all these choices”, in the new one this would be masked. Other than Australia, what kind of countries that we can say are reasonable free and democratic countries make voting mandatory? Authoritarian ones. Note that mandatory voting was introduced in Australia, the only real example of a democratic country that uses this system, because a political party in the 20s there needed votes and they knew they could win if everyone voted.


It doesn’t seem to me like mandatory voting legitimises democracy. More like the opposite.


This also goes back to my original point that certain people should not be voting at all; this is not strictly restricted to class, welfare, or anything else Pro might imagine I meant when I said that (an unfair characterization on Pro’s part of my stance). Obviously, everyone should have the right to vote. But that right to vote also includes the right not to vote. If I am not informed enough on the candidates for whatever reason, I do not wish to vote. I can make that choice for myself and it would be better for everyone involved that I do so. Pro has not actually answered why I have to be dragged to the polling station to say “I do not wish to vote”.


This affects EVERYONE since potentially everyone can be uninformed on a set of candidates, at least once in their life. Yes, like I said allowing people to cast a blank ballot theoretically achieves this - but forcing people to show up to the poll makes it much more likely that they will vote even if they dislike both/all of the candidates. It’s a kind of soft coercion.


And, more importantly; I challenge Pro to claim that he wants people like Dan Quayle to vote. He can’t even properly spell the word “potato”, I don’t want that dumbass’ vote to count the same as mine. He’ll probably vote (assume Dan Quayle isn’t a politician and just some uninvolved guy, and you can be sure there are MANY Dan Quayles out there) for whoever strikes his fancy. Even if he votes for the same candidate as me, I do not want him voting. It casts an aspersion on my side and makes my side look dumb.


I am not advocating for making voting requirements stricter. I am saying people like Dan Quayle don’t even show up to the polling station if you don’t force them to; and, what Pro hasn’t actually said is - if you have to force someone to make a choice, especially in something as important as an election, are you sure you are going to like the choice they’ll be making?


Finally, Pro states that my point of making political parties more representative of the average voter is nebulous. How is it nebulous? What reason does Pro give for declining voter turnouts? Surely, it can’t be that everyone has gotten busier, right? There has to be a reason. I say that that reason is, quite obviously, and quite simply, that politicians have become worse, political choices have become a matter of picking between two piles of shit, one that’s diarrhetic and one that’s solid.


I would venture a very strong guess, nay, I would bet my weekly wage that a substantial majority of the people on this site (and, the populace in general) would agree me on this. Very probably even Pro himself agrees with me on this.


So, yes, mandatory voting is a useless measure at best. At worst, it makes political parties think they are much more important than they really are and that they’re dealing with issues properly. Which they aren’t. No mandatory voting, please. Make a rule that invalidates every single person currently in an elected office and force politicians to have a minimum of X years experience working in the private sector. Make taking tests mandatory for becoming a politician, like South Korea does. Force politicians to substantiate their claims when saying something in their capacity as a politician (sort of like libel/defamation laws), like Singapore does. I guarantee things would change dramatically without requiring something as ridiculous and authoritarian as mandatory voting, a literal Soviet and Communist principle (in my home country of Romania, during the Communist period voting was mandatory).


Well, that is all. I’d like to thank my opponent for an interesting and lively debate, and for forfeiting on his previous round, and apologise for not posting in Round 2.


Nothing relevant here, but as you can no doubt guess, and you can ignore what I’m going to say here because this is not materially relevant to my argument, I have a strong personal aversion to mandatory voting. I do not understand how someone can suggest it.

New comment

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#27
--> @SatanLucy

Honestly don't care about the elo here, so that's not an issue. I do appreciate you voting.

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#26
--> @whiteflame

Sorry for stealing a bit of your elo, I needed to vote to earn a badge. I don't claim my vote to be perfect, and of course there can be disagreements on what to use to judge a debate by when voting. I don't usually base my vote on other votes, tho I do tend to read other votes just to see if I missed something which other voter didn't.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#25
--> @Ultracrepidarian

Thanks for voting!

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#24
--> @SatanLucy

Can't say I agree with that framing, but I don't really have anything else to add that wouldn't be getting further into the same arguments I made in the debate or just mentioning what Con didn't address, so I'll stop here. I appreciate the vote despite my disagreements.

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#23
--> @whiteflame

"I think that has more to do with your discussion of self-interests as an impact, since it doesn't factor into my framework"

It was your definition of democracy, at start of debate. Not just strongly implied in description.

So if one were to conclude "mandatory voting doesnt represent interests better", that then would mean:

Democracy definition = "represents interests of all people"

Mandatory voting = doesnt "represent interests of all people" better

Mandatory voting = Doesnt mean better democracy.


Your framework was likewise about representation of interests, so to me it seemed interests were a crucial point in debate to judge a debate by. If I merely judged a debate by "increased votes", that would be a landslide win for Pro and Con wouldnt stand a chance from start.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#22
--> @SatanLucy

I guess my fundamental disagreement is that I don't think Con actually challenged my framework in DP1, so the idea that my "framework turned against itself" doesn't make sense to me. You can argue as you did in your RFD that he challenged how well including more people voting through mandatory voting actually increases representation, but I wouldn't argue that that turned my framework. I guess on this front, we just have very different views of what a turn looks like, because I don't see it.

Speaking generally, it does feel like your RFD is evaluating things on a different framework than the one I presented, or at least evaluating Con's arguments on a framework he only suggested. Maybe that's just because I don't see him turning my framework in the same way that you do, though I think that has more to do with your discussion of self-interests as an impact, since it doesn't factor into my framework or any other that I can see in the debate. It's a valid point for the topic, but not one that I feel was given solid relative weight to democratic legitimacy.

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#21
--> @whiteflame

"I didn’t see an alternative framework that we could use to weigh individual interests"

Hence the "framework turned against itself vs no framework".

Your framework ran under premise:

Greater voter turnout = greater amount of interests satisfied (definition of democracy)

Con challenged that premise in round 1, more in round 3, but gave no of his own framework.

So if I am to reject round 3 entirely, I would vote Pro. If I am to accept round 3 entirely, I would vote Con. If I was to pick and choose what to accept and reject from round 3, based on previous arguments, I would have to debate whether to accept the argument of authoritarian countries having mandatory voting. But result would likely be somewhere in middle. So I simply chose tie.

I simply judge debates first by topic title and description definitions if provided. If debaters agree to a common main definition or standard, I can judge a debate by that, because thats point both agree on. If there is no any agreement, I can judge arguments based on definitions and standards provided by debaters who make them, and what logical consistency flows from that, and which arguments are logically deduced or with proved premises.

So when I judge a debate, I need a weighing system. Something which tells which arguments are good and which are bad, and that takes more than mere internal self-consistency of arguments.

So when I chose definition of democracy, where democracy is meant to represent interests of all people, to me that says

"democracy = representing interests of all people"

"better democracy = representing interests better".

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#20

Regardless, I accept your vote and I do appreciate it. Maybe you’re seeing more of an implied framework or applying a greater BoP to my side, which I could understand to some degree despite the way the debate was setup.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#19
--> @SatanLucy

My issue in part is that you keep talking about a harm to the interest of all these people who are forced to vote without a mechanism to weigh that harm. I presented democratic legitimacy as my framework and weighed everything on that framework. I didn’t see an alternative framework that we could use to weigh individual interests, and though I agree that would have worked in Con’s favor, you’re essentially just penalizing me for not weighing democratic legitimacy against a phantom framework. If you saw something to that effect that I missed, I’m happy to be wrong here.

I thought I was pretty clear that mandatory voting is the only guaranteed means of getting a sufficient increase in voters to achieve democratic legitimacy, so I don’t really get how I fell short showing an exclusive benefit. Again, seems like you want me to argue against a point I didn’t have on the flow to argue against. Pointing to two planks of my model that I thought could be non-exclusive doesn’t really cut it when my impacts were all based on the remainder.

I get your perspective on a lot of these points and even the problems that Con presented, especially in R3, but I don’t see the arguments on the flow from R1 that you wanted me to address and it seems like the main issues you take with my case are ones of personal liberty that my opponent should have brought up and established as more important than or a different framing of democratic legitimacy. I recognize those points are powerful, but not that I had to argue against them before they appeared on the flow.

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#18
--> @whiteflame

"I also don’t really get how my framework is turned against itself."

Its not entirely turned against itself. However, your framework, which deals with people's interests, defends a mandatory voting position (forcing people who dont have interest to vote).

Now, if I am a person who doesnt want to vote, mandatory voting merely harms my interest, if no other benefits to my interest are added.

So default starting position is in negative.

So the benefits to interests must outweigh that harm, for framework to work, or else it remains self-defeating.

So in simple terms, I am losing my interests by being forced to vote, so I must also get some interests in return for it to pay off.

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#17
--> @whiteflame

"that my arguments weren’t weighted for what we lose"

If you are talking about my statement regarding lack of numbers, the specific numbers which lack is how many people achieve their interests by mandatory voting vs how many lose some of their interest. For example, forcing 50 million people who dont want to vote, to vote, is a harm to their interests which needs to be outweighed by showing what amount of interest they get in return.

"the point about how it’s possible to solve for issues with lack of voting in a voluntary system"

I mentioned in my vote that Con only came up with solution in round 3. So that point was mentioned in debate, even if mentioned too late. However, with shared burden of proof, I also expect from Pro to show that advantages of mandatory voting system are exclusive to mandatory voting system. If they are not, that disables preference of one over another. You said "voluntary could have same model", when you talked of removing obstructions to voting. So to me, that showed no possible preference of one side over another, when both can apply exactly same solution to removing obstructions to voting.

"it feels like you’re essentially calling the entire increase in voter number nonunique"

I accepted in my vote that mandatory voting increases voter turnout. So did Con. So that point was not contested. What was contested is interests of those people.

Why this is only potential?

Well, ideal case: voter turnout increases, politicians show care for interests of those people, and more people have their interests cared for.

Less ideal case (suggested by Con): Voter turnout increases, people's interest is harmed by forced voting, additionally, politicians take advantage of new increase in votes for their own political benefit, uninformed voters get manipulated, and population as a whole doesnt gain much of their interests, but their interest is still harmed by forced voting (they have interest and desire not to vote, but are forced to).

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#16
--> @SatanLucy

I’ll need to sit down with them later and consider it, but the ones that don’t make sense to me are the statements that my arguments weren’t weighted for what we lose (the lack of numbers just isn’t accurate from where I’m sitting), and the point about how it’s possible to solve for issues with lack of voting in a voluntary system without any clarity on the “how” from Con. I get that it can happen to some extent, but it feels like you’re essentially calling the entire increase in voter number nonunique because it’s possible rather than because of any specific points Con made. I don’t get how uncontested points I made only show potential for improvement. I also don’t really get how my framework is turned against itself.

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#15
--> @whiteflame

I dont claim myself to be a flawless voter. Which points exactly?

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#14
--> @SatanLucy

I get that much. I don’t get your evaluation of a lot of my points when considering that definition.

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#13
--> @whiteflame

"The government of any democracy is, by definition, meant to represent the interests of the entire population"

this was something both debaters seemed to agree on, so I evaluated arguments by what interests points in them satisfy and of whom among entire population.

So I worked with:

Satisfying interests = good

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#12
--> @SatanLucy

Wouldn’t want you to punish the forfeit anyway. There are just elements of how you’re evaluating the debate that I’m not fully getting.

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#11
--> @whiteflame

the main question which was bothering me is: Should I punish Con's accidental forfeit (and reject his round 3 innovation), or reward his last round innovation?

In the end, I chose to do neither and just leave it as a tie.

If it was intentional forfeit, I would vote Pro. But due to short time for arguments (3 days), I am somewhat convinced forfeit was an accident.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#10
--> @SatanLucy

I’m honestly a little lost on your vote in several places, but I appreciate your taking the time to do so.

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Savant Administrator
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#9
--> @SatanLucy

Tied votes are still valuable information, as margin of victory matters for elo. What matters is the quality/depth of the vote.

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#8

I might vote on this, but from what I see so far, my vote is likely going to be a tie, so I am not sure if there is a point in casting it other than stealing one of 3 valuable vote slots.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#7
--> @Savant

Thanks for voting!

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#6

Yes, works for me. I apologise; thought I would have enough time for this. Thank you for offering to turn this into a two-round debate, I appreciate it.

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#5

Trump is best example of failed democracy. Because masses of people are not smart enough to even detect most obvious lies, such as "I will end all wars in 24 hours". They only detect them after the said politician already won, and at that point, it's too late.

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#4

Democracy is the best system of government, when we exclude all others.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#3
--> @Magoroth

So I’m fine making this a 2-round debate if you are, just treat the last round as my final. That work for you?

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#2

Yeah, an interesting topic. Looking forward to debating this with you. Actually haven’t done this kind of thing before.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#1

This should be interesting, haven't debated the topic before but I've thought about it a good deal.

Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro's framework of democratic legitimacy is accepted by Con, making this debate a question of whether mandatory voting leads to a more widely representative and respected government, as was also established by pro in the first round and not in any way disputed by Con until the last argument of the debate. For this reason framework falls entirely to the affirmative, giving Pro a lot of ground in this debate.

Pro provides a clean case that firmly upholds his framework. More turnout means more citizens are represented, which directly contributes to democratic legitimacy.

Con's case relates back to the framework far more weakly. He first of all make an argument that mandatory voting doesn't increase accurate representation because voters are being forced to choose between two options they dislike, but this simply isn't true. Pro made it abundantly clear that voters can cast protest ballots, which in its own way provides those citizens with a voice.

Con also argues that mandatory voting only leads to less educated voters, however they did not prove that someone voting without fully educating themself on the issues is destructive to democratic legitimacy. As Pro pointed, out every voter shows up to the booth with some knowledge of politics, and they know how their lives are going. Increasing turnout among voters who don't spend hours researching candidates still increases representation and thus in my view increasing democratic legitimacy.

Pro wins this debate!
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
I am leaving my vote as a tie for following reasons:

1. Framework turned against itself vs. no framework
2. Forfeited round, denying Pro of opportunity to respond to points by moving round 2 to round 3
3. No concrete example by any debater supporting their side
4. New arguments in round 3, which are good but too late

So Pro proposes a rather straightforward deduction:

P1. Mandatory voting = increases voter turnout
P2. Increased voter turnout = better representation
P3. better representation = better democracy
C. Mandatory voting = better democracy

Con attacks P2 specifically, in two ways:
P1. When candidates are Hitler and Stalin (or similar), it isnt true
P2. Mandatory voting doesnt increase, but decrease representation of interests of people who dont want to vote.

Pro presents a model, but that is a bit off topic, in my view, because topic doesnt include specific models which are going to be implemented should voting be mandatory, and there is no Pro's case of impossibility of implementing similar model for voluntary voting, and Pro says same could be implemented for voluntary voting. Presenting a model on what should ideally come with mandatory voting, has nothing to do with if there should be mandatory voting at all. So model argument itself doesnt prove topic one bit.


Pro defines democracy as representing interests of all people. (Hence, interests of people who have interest to not vote).

Pro makes argument that poor people have lower turnout, but no numbers how many of those people just dont want to vote.

Pro makes argument that politicians will have to represent more interests of more people if more people turn out to vote.

Finally, Pro makes argument that countries which saw big decline in voter turnout, many became authoritarian.

Con responds by questioning the quality of votes gained from mandatory voting, apparently, people doing no research before voting.

Responds that voting turnouts have been decreasing world wide anyway.

Questions what about people who dont want to vote.

Makes argument that increased voter turnout benefits the very old dominant parties responsible for its decline, and that solution is new parties, or old ones improving. However, Con's solution wasnt really explained in detail.

Pro makes a statistic that 14% of US voters report conflicting schedule, saying mandatory voting would add another 50 million votes. But this doesnt tell me how many of those people want to vote, but cant (and why this cant be solved in voluntary voting), how many dont want to vote, and how many are making excuses not to vote.

the disagreement on what objectively wrong or uninformed vote is, seems to be there, but no clear response to how uninformed voters benefit democracy or how much uninformed voters there will be.

Pro makes argument that some freedoms ought to be lost for democracy to function.

Points out value of protest votes, but not exactly any numbers.

Makes argument that dominant parties would actually face more competition in mandatory voting.

Says Con's model explains no how. (to this, I agree because Con didnt expand on it).


Con then forfeits a round, turning what was supposed to be 3 rounds into 2 rounds.

this diminishes value of arguments made in last round, because its denying Pro of response.

Con argues that not voting is itself a choice and a vote of a kind.

Makes argument that mandatory voting is in fact mostly done by authoritarian countries, with Australia being the only real democracy to do it.

Says that people being more likely to vote for a candidate in mandatory voting undermines representation, making people make choices they would otherwise not at all.

Makes argument that people choosing to not vote are those who have chosen so out of inability to decide, or lack of knowledge, and forcing them to vote essentially casts votes out of ignorance.

Makes argument that voting turnout decreased specifically because politicians became worse, and making voting mandatory makes those politicians more likely to just take advantage of it.

A useless measure at best, when all politicians are bad.

Makes a counter resolution to ban all current politicians from politics. While this does seem like a fine solution, sadly, it came in last round.


Conclusion

Weighting these arguments for me is difficult, as if I weight Con's counter resolution in 3rd round as is, it would give huge advantage to Con (solution for voluntary systems).

Con is likewise correct to point out that making voting mandatory harms interests of those who dont want to vote, interests of all people being something Pro included in definition of democracy.

But what I would have liked to see is Pro's response to these arguments in 3rd round, but that was made impossible because round 2 moved to round 3.

So weighing only 2 rounds against each other, with new arguments made in last round by Con, means a vote for Pro or Con depends entirely on if I accept Con's last round new arguments or not.

So while I accept Con's arguments as valid, they came a bit too late to matter.

I am leaving it as a tie because while I think Con's arguments made a good point about interests of people who dont want to vote, and of uninformed forced voters, the forfeit in debate denied Pro opportunity to explore points further.

to further analyze arguments, just so my vote is complete.

this debate was shorter than intended, which is why my vote is shorter than it otherwise would be.

I think Pro built a decent case, a decent framework, of more turnout = politicians forced to appeal to more people. However, with given definition of democracy, obviously interests of people who dont want to vote are harmed by forced voting. And people casting votes out of ignorance merely due to feeling forced to, are more like blind voting. Pro didnt show concrete improvements when it comes to mandatory voting. Potential for improvement, sure. But a concrete comparison of "mandatory to voluntary" was never made. Nor by Con. I simply dont see any statistic anywhere which says "this great improvement followed after mandatory voting", or "this great problem followed after mandatory voting".

Both debaters seem to have dealt more with potential and some tiny improvements, rather than any groundbreaking improvement of democracy. Con's solution in round 3 should have been in round 1. Saving it for round 3 was a bad idea, because making new arguments in round 3 when opponent can no longer respond is not exactly in the debating spirit.
Savant
Savant Administrator
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro proposes the framework of democratic legitimacy, and argues that by definition, a healthy democracy is inherently more healthy and legitimate. Specifically, “the government of any democracy is, by definition, meant to represent the interests of the entire population, not just the most outspoken and invested.” Con does not provide an alternative framework, which means that out the gate, per the voting rubric, I’m forced to use democratic legitimacy to judge the arguments. There is slightly more leeway with regards to arguing what determines legitimacy, but Con doesn’t strongly counter this argument until the final round. Anything not seeded by Con in the first round I can’t consider, as Pro basically gets no chance to respond to it. This is a big problem for Con’s case, because if I define democratic legitimacy the way Pro wants me to, then this is pretty much an automatic win for Pro, whose proposed system automatically gets votes from more people (basically agreed on by Con).

Now, in the first round, Con only connects his case to democratic legitimacy twice. First, he states that “a mandatory voting system that disallowed non-votes…would…legitimize either one of two (or more) absolutely terrible choices and would undermine Pro’s point about mandatory voting strengthening democratic representation.” But this is not the system Pro is proposing, so it doesn’t gain Con any offense.

Second, he states that “Some will vote for a candidate just because their parents support that candidate, some for the opposite reason (as a rebellion sort of thing). This undermines democratic legitimacy because a vote will be cast which will be based on nothing but someone’s whims…I assume my opponent also holds this position so I won’t go any further into proving this.” This ends up not being a true assumption, because Pro argues “I’ll argue that none are objectively “wrong.” More legal participation in the democratic process is what makes that process healthy and legitimate, full stop.” Pro also basically stated this up front in R1 when he said that “the government of any democracy is, by definition, meant to represent the interests of the entire population, not just the most outspoken and invested.”

The way this ends up playing out is that Con’s main standing offense on the only standing framework is an assertion that voting on a whim is “objectively the wrong vote.” Their only defense for this is that they assume Pro agrees with it; however Pro has already argued against it when they framed democratic legitimacy at the beginning of the debate. In comparison, Pro goes into more depth about the importance of representativeness to legitimacy and claims it’s the primary goal of the government in the first place, which doesn’t really get challenged by Con in the first round.

Pro attacks the vagueness of Con’s view of legitimacy (“More legal participation in the democratic process is what makes that process healthy and legitimate, full stop. It is up to Con to demonstrate what “wrongness” is in this context, distinguish it from what is “right” or “correct,” and explain how it negatively impacts democratic legitimacy.”) Based on Pro being the only person to frame the debate up front, this seems like a fair request at this point in the debate. In the final round, Con doesn’t really explain how “wrong” votes impact legitimacy. Dan Quayle spelling potato wrong might mean he votes for a less qualified candidate, but candidates being qualified and democratic legitimacy aren’t the same thing, and Con fails to tie them together.

Con argues “this basically slightly undermines legitimacy since some people are making a choice they would otherwise not be making at all,” but I don’t see them seeding a connection between this and legitimacy in the first round, and Con also isn’t fleshing out enough of a consistent competing interpretation of legitimacy to justify this claim.

There’s another more indirect way that Con might be trying to tie their case to democratic legitimacy in that they argue lower turnout forces parties to become more representative in order to earn the loyalty of voters. This more directly clashes with some of Pro’s assumptions and can gain Con some offense even if I accept Pro’s framing entirely. Pro strongly challenges this in the second round (“If anything, the voluntary voting system ensures the dominance of these parties, as evidenced by the fact that those who volunteer continue to elect them. It is only through a seismic shift in the voting base (see: mandatory voting) that these parties could have to face meaningful competition.”) He also cites some sources to argue that protest votes send a stronger message than just not voting.

Con doesn’t strongly attack this argument in the final round, though. They claim an unnamed party in Australia benefited from mandatory voting, but they don’t give a reason why that party was more or less authoritarian than the other parties. (Maybe the argument is that they were illegitimate because they were elected due to mandatory voting, but that’s assuming the thing Con is trying to prove.) This means Pro basically gets the last word on higher turnout affecting representativeness. Con also argues that political parties have gotten worse and less representative, but this is just arguing that lower representativeness means less voting. As Pro points out, Con isn’t defending how less voting leads to higher representativeness.

Overall, I think Pro tied his arguments more strongly to the framework and remained more consistent in the arguments he was making. This means Pro gains a lot of offense through bringing up points Con didn’t fully address, while the main arguments of Con’s that Pro failed to address were brought up in the last round and hence Pro just never got a chance to respond to them. I think Con would have done a better job either picking an alternative framework or being more clear upfront exactly how I should be measuring democratic legitimacy in their view. Alas, that’s not the way this played out. Hence, my vote goes to Pro.