Resolved: The United States should abolish the death penalty

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Pro Instigator Opens first Winner
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2½
Rating
1509
Debates
1
Win rate
100.00%
Con Contender
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½
Rating
1504
Debates
4
Win rate
50.00%
Verdict Alyssa wins · 2 points
Alyssa Pro
2½
Kohai Con
½

After 3 votes (1 tie) — 2 points ahead

Burden of proof

Shared

Pro must prove that it is better to completely abolish the death penalty. Con, at minimum, needs to show that the death penalty should still be on the books as a legal punishment.

Definitions

Death penalty
A legal punishment where the state puts a convicted person to death
Abolish
Repeal; Get rid of
The United States is one of the few democratic nations that still regularly use the death penalty. In recent years botched executions and wrongful convictions put this issue into the center of national debate

Round 1

1 of 3
avatar Pro #1

Thanks to Kohai for doing this debate with me!


Overview:


Because the resolution says "The United States should...", it is assumed that the actor of the resolution is the United States (or, by extension, the United States federal government [USFG], as we're talking about a legal/penal process).


Framing:


A) Governments have an obligation to base their laws around defendable moral norms and principles. Long gone are the days where "the law is the law". In short, people tend not to follow bullshit laws, so legal code ought to be based on external moral principles. In this way, governments ought to act as rational agents and follow moral guidelines. Magsino[1]:


"... People do not conform their behavior to the law simply because it should be that way. There must be a more rational justification to following rules than merely evoking authority. ... It is not the intrinsic "power" the law supposedly possesses that grants it legitimacy. Rather, legitimacy is bestowed by its being justified by reason through a normative claim."


B) Ontologically speaking, identity is important to understanding moral responsibilities. The self is constantly in relation to social others and, thus, is vulnerable. White[2]:


... ontologies emerge from the conjunction of two insights: acceptance of the idea that ... fundamental conceptualizations of self ... are contestable, and awareness that such conceptualizations are nevertheless unavoidable for any sort of reflective ethical and political life. ... ontologies do not proceed by categorical positings of ... human nature or telos ... Rather, they offer figurations of human being in terms of certain existential realities, ...These figurations are accounts of what it is to be a certain sort of creature: one entangled with language; conscious that it will die; possessing, despite its entanglement and limitedness, the capacity for radical novelty; and, finally, giving definition to itself against some ultimate background or "source" that evokes awe, wonder, or reverence.... 


This highlights an essential ontological truth: life is precarious and can't be statistically defined. Rather, we exist in an interdependent state. Ethics must, thusly, be grounded in actualizing the grievability of life. Life is injurable and defined by a shared vulnerability. Butler[3]:


Precariousness implies living socially ... that one’s life is always in some sense in the hands of the other. It implies exposure both to those we know and to those we do not know; a dependency on people we know or barely know, or know not at all. ... constitute obligations toward others, most of whom we cannot name and do not know, ... we could say that we have such obligations to others and presume that we know who we are in such an instance. ... precariousness underscores our radical substitutability ... in relation both to certain socially facilitated modes of dying and death ... Only under conditions in which the loss in which the loss would matter does the value of the life appear. ... we imagine that an infant comes into the world, is sustained in and by that world through to adulthood and old age, and finally dies. ... there can be no celebration without an implicit understanding that the life is grievable, that it would be grieved if it were lost, and that this future anterior is installed as the condition of its life. ... Without grievability, there is no life, ... there is something living that is other than life. ... is a life that will never have been lived, ... and ungrieved when lost. ... 


Thus, the standard for evaluating the round ought to be who best actualizes the grievability of life. These precede other framing justifications because they're grounded in how we ought to construct the individual, which guides our ethical decisions. Butler[4]:


... before we can speak about a self who is capable of choice, we must first consider how that self is formed ... the sphere in which the subject is said to emerge is ‘‘ontological’’ in the sense that the phenomenal world of persons and things becomes available only after a self has been formed ... To describe this scene is to take leave of the descriptive field in which a ‘‘self ’’ is formed and bounded in one place and time and considers its ‘‘objects’’ and ‘‘others’’ in their locatedness elsewhere. The possibility of [ethics] ... presumes ... the self and its ... world have ... been constituted ... 


And, this also precludes other discussions of ethics because ethics become impossible without an understanding of our relation to the Other. Rejecting the Other rejects subjective narratives and opens the door to ethical violence and oppression. Butler[4]:


... to ... not ... have the grounds for agency and the conditions for accountability, it may be that this way in which we are, from the start, interrupted by alterity and not fully recoverable to ourselves, indicates the way in which we are, from the start, ethically implicated in the lives of others. ... our incoherence ... establishes the way in which we are implicated, beholden, derived, constituted by what is beyond us and before us. If we say that the self must be narrated ... then we say that we cannot survive with an unconscious. ... In the language which articulates the opposition to a non-narrativizable beginning resides the fear that the absence of narrative will spell a certain threat, a threat to life, and will pose the risk, if not the certainty, of a certain kind of death, the death of a subject who cannot, who can never, fully recuperate the conditions of its own emergence. 


And grievability is the primary and sufficient source of moral obligations and acts as a gateway to other moral decisions. My framing is the best guideline under which to make moral decisions. Butler[5]:


[Grievability] can be a point of departure for a new understanding ... we might critically evaluate and oppose the conditions under which certain human lives are more vulnerable than others, and thus certain human lives are more grievable than others. From where might a principle emerge by which we vow to protect others from the kinds of violence we have suffered if not from an apprehension of a common human vulnerability ... this conception means that we are vulnerable to those we are too young to know and to judge and, hence, vulnerable to violence; but also vulnerable to another range of touch, a range that includes the eradication of our being at the one end, and the physical support for our lives at the other. ... we cannot recover the source of this vulnerability: it precedes the formation of “I.” this is a condition, a condition of being laid bare from the start with which we cannot argue. ...  


Thus, my sole contention is that the death penalty violates the grievability of life.


1) The face to face encounter with the Other requires a prohibition on all violence, regardless of what the other has done. The death penalty is most certainly an act of violence, as we're ending someone's life, and can never be permissible. Butler[4]:


... We do not take responsibility for ... Other’s acts as if we authored those acts ... we affirm the unfreedom at the heart of our relations. I cannot disavow my relation to the Other, regardless of what the Other does, regardless of what I might will. ... responsibility is not a matter of cultivating a will, but of making use of an unwilled susceptibility as a resource for becoming responsive to the Other. Whatever the Other has done, the Other still makes an ethical demand upon me ... There are situations in which responding to the ‘‘face’’ of the other feels horrible, impossible, and where the desire for murderous revenge feels overwhelming. But the primary and unwilled relation to the Other demands that we desist from both a voluntarism and an impulsive aggression grounded in the self-preservative aims of egoism. ... 


2) The death penalty denies our shared vulnerability and denies we can always be affected by the Other. Rejection of our shared vulnerability is a rejection of the Other leads to the harms outlined in the framing. Butler[4]:


It is always possible to say, ‘‘Oh, some violence was done to me, and this gives me full permission to act ... ’ Many atrocities are committed under the sign of a ‘‘self-defense [or realiation] ... because it achieves a permanent moral justification for retaliation, knows no end and can have no end ... It delineates a physical vulnerability from which we cannot slip away, which we cannot finally resolve in the name of the subject, but which can provide a way to understand that none of us is fully bounded, utterly separate, but, rather, we are in our skins, given over, in each other’s hands, at each other’s mercy. ...


Sources:


[1] - Magsino, Marion. Jürgen Habermas' ​ Between Facts and Norms.

[2] - Stephen K. White. As the World Turns: Ontology and Politics in Judith Butler. Polity, Vol. 32, No. 2 (Winter, 1999), pp. 155-177 

[3] - Judith Butler, PhD, Yale, Maxine Elliot Professor of Rhetoric and Comparative Literature, “Frames of War: When is Life Grievable?”, Verso, 2009,

[4] - Giving an Account of Oneself. Judith Butler [Maxine Elliot Professor of rhetoric at Berkley] University press.

[5] - Judith Butler. Precarious Life: The Powers of Mourning and Violence 2004. Pg. 30-31 

avatar
Kohai Administrator
Con #2

Thank you, Alyssa! Best of luck to you in this round.

Overview

I agree with Alyssa that the main actor here is the US Federal Government. As such, we are discussing the death penalty on the federal level and not on the state level.

The Negative Plan

The counter-proposal is to reserve the death penalty on the federal level to heinous crimes like terrorism, mass murder, genocide, and crimes against humanity.

Framing:

I value justice. I define justice as “the process or result of using laws to fairly judge cases, redress wrongs, and punish crimes.” The criterion that I use to evaluate whether or not a punishment is just is proportionality, the doctrine that the punishment ought to be in proportion to the crime.

There are 5 primary goals of the criminal justice system:

  1. Retribution: Punishment for the criminal for what they did.
  2. Rehabilitation: Preparing the criminal to lead a productive life outside of the justice system.
  3. Deterrence: Deterring people from committing crimes.
  4. Incapacitation: Removing violent offenders from society.
  5. Restoration: Making restitution between a criminal and their victim(s).

The most important function of government is to protect the general welfare of the public. This leads me to my first contention.

I. The Death Penalty Upholds the Grievability of Life

Sub-point A: The Death Penalty Provides Permament Incapacitation of the Most Dangerous Individuals

My opponent's sole contention and framework surrounds the concept of the grievability of life. Unfortunately for my opponent, their argument is very weak and collapses immediately upon careful review. This is the line that collapses the entire case:

The face to face encounter with the Other requires a prohibition on all violence, regardless of what the other has done. The death penalty is most certainly an act of violence, as we're ending someone's life, and can never be permissible

This collapses immediately because one must immediately reject all forms of punishment. Life imprisonment is violence as it is removing a person from society for the remainder of their life. Even worse, one must reject even self-defense. If someone is attacking you must you not fight back? Must society be prohibited from neutralizing and removing violent people from society? If all lives are grievable then, so are the lives that the perpetrator took. My opponent's framework ignores their suffering and grievability.

The death penalty best upholds the grievability of life in the cases that I had mentioned because they permanently incapacitate dangerous individuals who have demonstrated a total lack of regard for the other and the willingness to commit extreme attrocities. There are countless examples of murderrs and terrorists who were eventually let free and continued to kill again. Few examples:

1) Yahya Sinwar, who was imprisoned for murdering multiple Palestinians and plotting terrorists attacks. He was given four life sentences. He was released in a deal and went on to become the mastermind of the October 7 terrorist attack on Israel.

2) Edward Dean Kennedy, a killer who esecaped from prison and killed people when he escaped.

Life imprisonment does not guarantee the worst of the worst will not offend again. At best it will only buy time until they either escape or die during imprisonment. If the state has a duty to protect the public and the grievability of lives then it follows that it must account for potential failures when dealing with the most dangerous offenders.

Sub-point B: The Death Penalty Upholds Proportionality to the Other

When dealing with the griveability of life and the protection of the other the state must consider whether or not the punishment is in proper proportion to their crime. Crimes such as mass murder, genocide, and terrorism are a different type of crime against the other. The only proportionate punishment to such crimes is the death penalty. As Edward Fesser writes:

Put another way, to sentence killers like those described above to less than death would fail to do justice because the penalty – presumably a long period in prison – would be grossly disproportionate to the heinousness of the crime. Prosecutors, jurors, and the loved ones of murder victims understand this essential point. As the mother of the murder victim of one of those executed in 2012 said to the sentencing jury, “I would beg this court and this jury to see that justice is done. And justice to us is no less than the death penalty.” Even offenders themselves sometimes recognize that justice demands their death, as three of those executed in 2012 fully acknowledged. One who killed two men after a minor traffic accident said, “I killed two people. I’ve always accepted responsibility for the taking of their lives. . . . I believe in justice and I believe that the victims, their hatred, their anger, they need to have justice.” Another who killed a 63-year-old prison guard during an escape attempt pleaded guilty and waived all appeals, resulting in his execution just one year after sentencing. In a letter he wrote a week before his execution he commended the prosecutor and affirmed the justice of his punishment: “I do not want or desire to die, instead I deserve to die; this I have always stated.” In concluding he wrote, “It’s not about me or any future killers, it is about ensuring that in contested cases that the victims and their families get their intended and needed swift justice.” And one who abducted, raped, and murdered a 9-year-old girl told a federal court, “I killed the little girl. It’s just that the punishment be concluded. I believe it’s a good thing, that the death penalty does inhibit further criminal acts.” He added, “I killed. I deserve to be killed.”

Conclusion

Pro's framework, although noble, is self-contradictory and leads to extreme absurdities. Must the government not use violence at all even in response to attrocities and when the welfare of the public is at risk? We must reject pro's framework because it leaves the grievability of the innocent lives at risk and denies justice to those who were taken.

The resolution is negated.

Round 2

2 of 3
avatar Pro #3

Thanks Kohai.



Pro Framing:


Everything above my contention arguments was cold conceded by Con. So lets do some extensions to show why this debate is already over.


Extend the Magsino evidence. Magsino does a really good job of elaborating that laws and principles of justice need to be based on external moral codes and principles. People don't follow laws just because it's the law, but rather because there is some reason to believe that the law is good through some other normative claim. This means that before we can even evaluate any impacts coming off of Con's framing, we need to accept some other underlying moral framing. This is damning because I'm the only one providing any kind of moral framing. So in order for Con to access any offense off of their case, they have to be linking into my framing. I'll be going over in the contention level offense why this is impossible for them.


Extend the first Butler evidence. Butler explains that the only way that life has any kind of ontological meaning is through an understanding that life is precarious and something worth protecting in and of itself. Specifically, it is through being alive that we understand and protect the grievability of life, and that precariousness is harmed if this life is taken away from a person (like, for example, when they're killed).


This is damning to Con's case for multiple reasons:


1) It's still the only moral framing that is present within the round, so Con's only chance of having offense via the conceded Magsino evidence is through linking offense to Butler.

2) This is impossible for Con to do because Con's plan is state-sponsored killing of people. I'm the only one advocating for not killing people. Full stop, vote pro here. Con can literally never garner any kind of offense off of my framing.


And, don't let them provide an alternative moral framing in the next round because they've conceded the three reasons why my framing pre-empts and comes before other moral framings (that's the second, third, and fourth Butler arguments).



Pro Contention:


Extend the first Butler argument I make under my contention level offense. Regardless of what other people do or who they harm, they still impose ethical demands on us as their lives are still grievable. Therefore killing them via the death penalty is impermissible.


Their response to this is to say that life imprisonment is also violence, as is self-defense. They also claim that the victim's lives are also grievable, so we have to protect the victims of these crimes. These responses fail for numerous reasons:


1) We can't protect the victims as they're already dead if we've reached the point of discussing the death penalty, per Con's own advocacy. Further escalating the violence by killing more people via the death penalty only makes things worse and furthers the cyclical violence that results from violating the grievability of life (that's the third Butler argument in the framing and the second Butler argument in the contentions). The only way to stop the cycle of violence is voting Pro.

2) Per the resolution, I only have to defend abolishing the death penalty. It's replacement, if any, is beyond the scope of the resolution.

a) Even if it's not, forcing me to defend life imprisonment is a false dichotomy, as rehabilitation exists.

b) Even if you don't like rehabilitation, life imprisonment is still preferable to the death penalty because at least they're still alive. Refer back to the first Butler argument I make under the framing where it's specifically being alive that's important.



Con's Case:


Overview:


Con's plan is specifically to keep the death penalty around for the following crimes:


  1. Terrorism
  2. Mass Murder
  3. Genocide
  4. Crimes Against Humanity


Keep that in mind, as it makes their proportionality argument absurd.


Con's Framing:


Con's value of Justice is pre-empted by my own framing (see the Magsino argument). The only way for them to garner offense off of it is through my own framing, which is impossible for them.


Then look at their goals of the criminal justice system. The death penalty only actually achieves two of them - retribution and incapacitation. Both of those feed into the cyclical nature of violence against grievability and make them bite further into the harms of the Pro framing (again, refer back to the third Butler argument in the framing and the second Butler argument in the contentions), but they also fail to defend the other three:


Rehabilitation is impossible because there is no life outside the justice system for them - they're dead now, under Con's plan.

Restoration is impossible because killing the offenders doesn't miraculously give life back to their victims. It just ups the body count.

And deterrence isn't achieved for a litany of reasons:

1) National metastudies show no causal link between the death penalty and deterrence. They examined 35 years of studies on the death penalty's effect on crime and came to the following conclusion:


The committee finds the failure of the panel studies we reviewed to address or overcome the primary challenges discussed above sufficient reason to view this research as noninformative with regard to the effect of the death penalty on homicides. ... No connection has been established between these measures and the perceived sanction risks of potential murderers. Neither the fixed effects multiple regression models nor the proposed instruments are credible in overcoming challenges to identifying a casual link between the death penalty and homicide rates. The homogeneous response restriction that the effects are the same for all states and all time periods seems patently not credible.


2) The National Institute of Justice provides a laundry list of reasons why the death penalty specifically doesn't factor into deterrence, including:


  1. Getting caught mattering more than the specific punishment
  2. Increasing severity of punishment doing nothing for deterrence
  3. The death penalty specifically doesn't deter criminals


3) Saying the death penalty deters crime implies that criminals are thinking before committing crime about what punishment they'll face if they're caught, which is nonsense since a) most offenders don't plan to get caught, and b) it ignores crimes that occur within the moment with little to no pre-planning occurring.


This is game over for Con because not only is it impossible for them to fulfill my framework, but the death penalty doesn't even meet their own framework.


Con's Subpoint B:


The only thing Con has left standing is their subpoint b saying that the death penalty upholds proportionality. But this is a hilarious argument to make because in what world is killing a single person proportional to crimes like mass murder, terrorism, or genocide? Even a simple body count will easily show that one person =/= dozens/hundreds/thousands of victims. Proportionality via the death penalty is impossible.


Their source is even more entertaining:


1) I'm not sure how credible the Catholic World Report is when we're considering US law, especially because the source is specifically showing how the death penalty is valid under Catholic doctrine.

2) Look at their quoted text from their source. Literally none of the criminals listed in there would qualify for the death penalty under Con's plan. So even if their source is right, it's not applicable to Con's case.

3) All of this assumes that the death penalty would actually deter more crime, which isn't actually shown in this source and I've illustrated above how it wouldn't. If it's sole purpose is to literally just punish them for committing crime by killing them, then not only do they sever any possibility of linking to my framework, but they can't link to their own ideals of justice as well. That means that regardless of who's framework you look at, there's no reason to allow the death penalty.



Conclusion:


Con concedes the entirety of my framing and instead tries to show how the death penalty prevents future violations of people's grievability. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my framing, and I do a very clear job of explaining that the death penalty can never be allowed to be a thing under my framing as killing anyone, for any reason, is inherently wrong. Life is precarious and grievable, and it is through living life that life has value (that's the first Butler argument under the framing). Following death with more death is like saying two wrongs make a right.


They've also conceded the Magsino argument that says that laws need to be based on external moral principles. This means that before you even evaluate Con's case, you have to vote off my framing. I'm the only one upholding the grievability of life by abolishing the death penalty, which means that it's a clear Pro vote here.


Don't let them propose a counter moral framework in the next round.

a) The time to propose framings to evaluate arguments under is reserved for the first round, and making it so my only time to respond to their new framing is the final round is explicitly unfair to me.

b) They've conceded the three reasons I have in my framework as to why my framing comes before other moral theories (which is the second, third, and fourth Butler arguments), so regardless of whether or not they do so, you still look to my framework first.


But even if you don't like my framing, I've shown pretty clearly how the death penalty fails to meet their conceptions of justice and proportionality. This means that regardless of who's framing you evaluate the round under, the death penalty should be abolished.


Back over to Con.

avatar
Kohai Administrator
Con #4

Thank you, Alyssa! I will point out that my first round was mainly to lay out my opening arguments and not write a comprehensive rebuttal. Any accusations of dropping / concessions should be ignored.

Pro Framing:

A. Magsino

Pro states that I do not have a moral framework; however, that is blatantly false. My moral framework is the value of justice via the criteria of proportionality. Pro quote's Magsino in their opening round:

"... People do not conform their behavior to the law simply because it should be that way. There must be a more rational justification to following rules than merely evoking authority. ... It is not the intrinsic "power" the law supposedly possesses that grants it legitimacy. Rather, legitimacy is bestowed by its being justified by reason through a normative claim."

The highlighted text is what is important. I agree with Magsino. The normative claim I am making is that the government has a moral obligation to protect the people. This is done by creating laws and a coherent justice system. When creating a framework for the government one ought to select the framework that can properly guide the state. My framework can do that by showing that a punishment is just / unjust by comparing the punishment to the crime. If the punishment is more severe than the crime, then the punishment is unjust; conversely, if the punishment is more lenient than the crime, then the punishment is also unjust.

To illustrate, let's take an example of speeding. A person is caught speeding 5 miles over the speed limit. Would it be just to put them in prison for life? Of course not, because the punishment is far more severe than the crime. In 2015, Brock Turner was sentenced to 6 months in jail for rape followed by 3 years of probation. Turner was released after only 3 months. People were appalled by the sentence and rightfully so. The punishment was unjust because it was too lenient. Similarly, life in prison for crimes like terrorism, mass murder, and genocide is too lenient because of how grave those crimes are and their wilful disregard for the other.

To follow my logic:

  1. Normative claim - The government has a moral duty to protect the public and provide for a fair justice system
  2. Reason (criterion): This is weighed through the criteria of whether or not a punishment is truly proportionate to the crime committed.
  3. Therefore, since the death penalty is justified in certain cases via the criteria of proportionality the death penalty ought not be abolished.

B. Butler

This is where the fun begins! My job is not to disprove Butler, but to show why her framework ultimately collapses and my framework is superior.

  1. What makes Butler the final authority? Why ought the state follow Butler's ethics? This is the key question that Alyssa has not explained. Why is Butler more important than a just, proportionate punishment?
  2. When you follow Alyssa's arguments to their logical conclusion, the result is a state that cannot do the fundamental duty of protection.

1: Unconstrained Pacificism

I mentioned this earlier in the first round. Pro's reading of Butler leaves everyone defenseless against attack. Recall Pro from Round 1:

The face to face encounter with the Other requires a prohibition on all violence, regardless of what the other has done. The death penalty is most certainly an act of violence, as we're ending someone's life, and can never be permissible

I mentioned how absurd this is. This reading prohibits even self defense against an ongoing attacker. Note that this was mentioned in the previous round but was dropped. Please extend. Pro replies:

1) We can't protect the victims as they're already dead if we've reached the point of discussing the death penalty, per Con's own advocacy. Further escalating the violence by killing more people via the death penalty only makes things worse and furthers the cyclical violence that results from violating the grievability of life (that's the third Butler argument in the framing and the second Butler argument in the contentions). The only way to stop the cycle of violence is voting Pro.

This fails for several reasons:

  1. We can protect future potential victims. Please review my notes on Sinwar and others who have gone on to continue killing. This has not been addressed. Please extend
2) Per the resolution, I only have to defend abolishing the death penalty. It's replacement, if any, is beyond the scope of the resolution.

This is basically an admission that your framework fails. In order for your framework to be coherent it must account for which violences are acceptable and which ones are not. You are the one who said violence is never acceptable. This would include any form of imprisonment and any form of self defense.

a) Even if it's not, forcing me to defend life imprisonment is a false dichotomy, as rehabilitation exists.

Yet under your own framework imprisonment is violence. One could also make a case that rehabilitation is violent because it forces the defendent to be locked away from society and we force them to change their behavior. Again, what counts as violence and what does not?

b) Even if you don't like rehabilitation, life imprisonment is still preferable to the death penalty because at least they're still alive. Refer back to the first Butler argument I make under the framing where it's specifically being alive that's important.

Yes, it is true that they are alive. That said, so are future potential victims. If it is permitted to stop an attack in progress via force then Alyssa must explain when taking a life becomes permissible vs impermissible. If Alyssa agrees that lethal self-defense force is permitted then when and why does the justification disappear? Even worse, Butler never makes that claim and admits self-defense could be valid in some situations. Butler:

you will see that only certain kinds of selves can invoke self-defence because they have a self to be defended and they are considered to have a self that is worthwhile or that is in fact socially recognizable as a self-worth-defending

2. Misapplication of Butler

Pro is propping up Butler as an absolutist framework. However, Butler herself does not take that position. Butler:

I am trying to offer something like a philosophy of nonviolence. By that I mean not so much a set of prescriptions or even absolute principles but an ethos...I think there are ways of thinking about nonviolence that compel us to rethink who we are as social creatures in the world, what our relationships are to one another, and what our relationship to the earth is in all that sustains and supports us. It is not a book that is full of prescriptions or absolute principles. But it does seek to develop a political ethos that is informed by ethical commitments.

Butler never states that violence is never acceptable nor does she ever claim to be making an ethical framework the government has to follow. An Ethos is not an absolutist framework, nor can it guide state policy.

Con's Case:

Framing:

My opponent states that my value of justice is pre-empted by Pro's framing but never states why. In addition, they get several critical things wrong about my criteria:

  1. I never claimed every punishment must meet every single goal. I made this explicit by mentioning the criteria as proportionality, not meeting every one of those goals simultaneously.
  2. Pro admits that the death penalty meets the criteria of retribution and incapacitation. Please extend this.
  3. My opponent has a gross distortion of what proportionality means. It is not a 1:1 body count, but rather it is making sure that the punishment actually fits the crime. To illustrate, refer back to the speeding ticket and Brock Tuner examples from earlier.
  4. I never stated that the death penalty deters crime. In fact, I avoided that claim because the deterrence effect is murky at best. But remember: no punishment needs to meet all 5 goals at once. A punishment is just if it meets at least one of those goals and is proportionate to that crime

Con's Subpoint B:

A) Alyssa's gripe that these defendants wouldn't qualify under my plan is only partially correct because these cases were state-level crimes, not federal-level crimes that the resolution demands. However, this ignores the main purpose of this argument: Even if they would not qualify for the death penalty under my plan, the point is the defendants recognized that their crimes were grave and that the death penalty is a proper proportionate punishment.

B) I never made the claim that the death penalty deters crime. I stated deterrence was one of the goals of the criminal justice system. In fact, I avoided that claim precisely because the evidence on deterrence is murky at best. Remember: Any given punishment does not need to meet every single goal. Pro is attacking a mischaracterizataion of my argument.

Conclusion

When comparing frameworks, we ought to utilize the framework that can actually guide the state into making decisions. While my opponent's case is deeply philosophical, pro's framework is unable to guide the state. In addition, my opponent still is yet to explain why the state ought to follow Butler. In contrast, my framework ties directly into the duties of the state, which is to uphold justice via proprtionality. My framework can guide the state if a punishment is just. My opponent's framework cannot.

Back over to Pro!

Round 3

3 of 3
avatar Pro #5

Pro Framing:


Extend Magsino. Governments have an obligation to base laws based on moral claims, otherwise there are no reasons for people to follow them. Con explicitly agrees with this argument. This is a game over mistake for them:


  1. I'm the only one proposing any kind of moral framing or justification for any kind of action in this round. This means you default to evaluating the round under the framework of grievability.
  2. Con's claim that their framework functions as a normative moral claim is factually wrong. No moral theories are defended by Con. Not util, not deontology, nothing. Their argument is the state has an obligation to protect people, but never states where that obligation is derived from. In Con's world, the state makes laws so those laws are moral and just. This is precisely what Magsino criticizes. With no moral justification to base their laws off of, the laws they would propose cannot be considered legitimate. This collapses the entirety of Con's framing, making it impossible for them to achieve their value of Justice.


Don't let them propose some other moral justification in the final round - I have no more rounds to respond to anything.


Don't let them say that they're using my framework as their moral justification either -

  1. they've spent the first round trying to link to it, then said in the second round that it can't guide state policy. By their own admission, this can't justify their framework.
  2. they continue to drop the argument coming out of the first Butler argument in my framing that living life and being alive is what makes life grievable. By endorsing literally killing people as state policy, they cannot link.


And don't let them say "protecting people" is their normative claim - they need to be doing the work to show who is worth protecting (I am, it's everyone), when we extend that protection (I am, it's always), and why that protection is important (I am, it's because otherwise life has no value and our understanding of identity is meaningless). They're doing none of those things. I'm the only one attempting to do these things via Butler.


Speaking of Butler, extend the first Butler argument coming from my framing. Because we live in an interdependent state, all life is inherently precarious and grievable. Being alive is what gives life value, so attempts to harm this (i.e. killing people) can never be justified. They make a number of criticisms against Butler:


1) Why care about Butler?


  1. Butler is the only moral framework proposed in the round. Given the conceded Magsino argument, which says that governments must base laws off of external moral claims, we must care about Butler if we're talking about state policy.
  2. Extend the second, third, and fourth Butler arguments I make in my framing that are all reasons why grievability is the most important moral justification to consider within the round and how grievability acts as a gateway to even begin any other moral discussion of ethics. None of these arguments were ever responded to. Hold Con to these concessions.


2) The state can't work with Butler


  1. Given that the US processes hundreds of thousands of crimes without killing offenders and millions of people live normal lives, I think the state can do just fine upholding grievability.
  2. The interview they quote of Butler explicitly states that her ethics can be used to guide state action:


It is not a book that is full of prescriptions or absolute principles. But it does seek to develop a political ethos that is informed by ethical commitments.


3) Nonviolence doesn't work


  1. Con seems to be really hung up on one tag line while refusing to engage with the actual warrants of what Butler is saying. Again, the first Butler argument in my framing is very clear that taking life away from people is what harms grievability. Alive = good. Dead = bad. That is the claim Butler is making, and that is the claim I'm defending. I brought this up last round, I'll do it again here. I don't know how to be more clear than this.
  2. Butler doesn't defend absolute pacifism. Their own interview clarifies (they really should've read this more):


AD: You have already mentioned that you do not see nonviolence as some kind of absolute principle ... But if you were to draw a line between violence and self-defence where would you try to draw it?
JB: ... My answer is twofold: On the one hand, I would say that there are enormously forceful and aggressive forms of nonviolence that can be used to oppose state violence ... I do not understand nonviolence as passive. ... Nonviolence can be raging and ... defined as a way of ... redirecting rage in such a way that it does not reproduce the violence it opposes. The question I would ask in any given instance is the following: is my action reproducing the violence that it opposes? If it reproduces the violence it opposes it ... cannot be a good solution ...


This condemns the death penalty - Con opposes killing people by checks notes killing people. Vote Pro here, clear as day.


And can we please move on from the pointless self defense talk? Con's trying to say that my case means we can't practice self defense, then says Butler says self defense is fine (while miscontextualizing the quote, because the line Con quotes is her referencing something someone else claimed), so by their own admission this entire point is a wash. And don't let them extrapolate this into some weird concession about killing people - there's more ways to practice self-defense than just killing your attacker.


And, just so Con can't say I dropped the random examples of people who escaped prison and killed more people:


  1. This is making the implication that some lives are more grievable than others, which is false. Regardless of the Other's actions, they still impose ethical demands on us, so we must uphold grievability in all instances.
  2. Saying that we can prevent future killings by killing offenders implies that there's some kind of deterrence effect on crime, which they've conceded isn't true. This puts them in a double-bind. Either a) we can't protect the victims as they're already dead, or b) they have to defend that the death penalty has a deterrence effect (which they've conceded it doesn't). And saying that the ability to escape imprisonment breaks the double bind is nonunique - it's not like the second people are sentenced to death they die, so there's still potential for them to escape imprisonment in Con's world.


So on the Pro side, the debate is crystal clear - life is grievable, so killing people, for any reason, is wrong. The death penalty kills people, so it is wrong. Therefore, vote Pro.



Con's Framing:


Con never responds to my argument that Magsino pre-empts their value of Justice (yes, it was there in multiple places, scroll back up). This means that before you can evaluate anything in Con's case, you have to vote off my case first.


Then Con makes the argument that they don't have to uphold each of their five points to what makes a punishment just. Oh boy...


  1. This is clearly shifting the goalposts. Their argument literally is that the justice system has five goals - saying that you don't have to meet every goal after I've shown why Con doesn't meet most of them is clearly abusive.
  2. Even if it's not, they've conceded that the death penalty doesn't meet most of them, so at best for Con it shows that we're unsure if the death penalty is just or unjust. At worst, it's more likely to be unjust rather than just.
  3. Even if you don't buy that, their argument after is that proportionality is what matters most, which isn't one of the listed goals, so why do we care about Con's criteria under Con's own framing?
  4. Even if you don't buy that, then all we care about is proportionality and this entire section is just something they're trying to kick out of. However, they can't because they concede the argument I make that the goals of retribution and incapacitation, as it's applied to the death penalty, further the cyclical violence that the Pro case condemns. This means that Con's framing cannot be morally justified, which a) collapses their entire framing again, and b) means they can never fulfill the requirement placed on the state by Magsino.


Speaking of proportionality, let's talk about it.


Extend the response I make last round that the death penalty can never be a proportional punishment to crimes like mass murder/terrorism/genocide/etc. because killing one person doesn't balance out for the dozens/hundreds/thousands of victims. THIS IS 100% DROPPED BY CON. Nowhere in their last round do they address this. Their only claim to saying that it's proportional is their Catholic World Report source, where the warrant is literally just one dude saying it is with zero justification for why it is. It's really as simple as 1 =/= more than one. The only way to make it proportional would be to also execute the offender's family/friends/loved ones until the body count is even, which a) Con probably doesn't defend, and b) shows exactly why the death penalty bites into the cyclical violence that my case condemns. For the crimes that Con is proposing to keep the death penalty around for, proportionality is literally impossible. This is game over for Con - not only do they have no offense towards either framing, but if all we care about for justice is proportionality, then the death penalty isn't proportional so we should reject it under their framing.


Again, this was cold conceded by Con. Hold them to it since this is the last round and I don't have a chance to respond to whatever they might say in the final round.


Conclusion:


This debate is super simple to evaluate. My framing stands easily - life is grievable and killing people violates that grievability. The death penalty kills people, so we ought to reject it. States must also base their laws off of external moral norms (that's Magsino), so we reject the death penalty. The death penalty also isn't proportional, so it violates Con's framing as well.

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Kohai Administrator
Con #6

Thank you, Alyssa, for a great debate. I wish you the best of luck in the voting period. I will keep my closing remarks very brief and will present a list of voting issues for the judges.

Pro's Framing:

A. Magsion

Once again, Alyssa states that I don't have a moral framework. However, this has been repeatedly shown to be false. My moral framework is grounded in the government's duty to protect the people. Once more, to follow my chain of logic vis à vis Magsion:

People do not conform their behavior to the law simply because it should be that way. There must be a more rational justification to following rules than merely evoking authority. ... It is not the intrinsic "power" the law supposedly possesses that grants it legitimacy. Rather, legitimacy is bestowed by its being justified by reason through a normative claim."

How my framework follows this:

  1. Normative claims:
  2. The government has a duty to protect the people.
  3. The government has a duty to uphold justice.
  4. Legitimacy (criterion): This is done through proportionality. Any just punishment must be proportionate to the crime committed.
  5. This justice system has 5 main goals:
  6. Retribution
  7. Rehabilitation
  8. Deterrence
  9. Incapacitation
  10. Restoration
  11. The death penalty acheives two of these goals (which pro admitted).
  12. There are some crimes in which the only proprtionate and just punishment is the death penalty.
  13. Hence, the death penalty ought not be abolished.

B. Butler

I've repeatedly shown how Butler's framework does not hold up. I don't want to keep repeating myself but please make note of pro's turn-around with regards to violence. Her first claim was that violence is never acceptable, then she claimed that it could be acceptable and that leads to the ultimate problem with Butler and it is the problem that I've been hounding on repeatedly; Butler's framework is incapable of telling the state when violence is acceptable and when violence is not acceptable. That is why the Butler framework ultimately collapses.

Con's Framing:

Pro repeatedly misunderstands and strawmans my arguments. First, she continues her gross misunderstanding of what proprtionality means. Proportionality means the punishment must be equal to the crime. No one has ever claimed that death penalty = genocide. Second, Pro concedes that the death penalty does meet two goals (incapacitation and retribution. Third, my opponent repeatedly drops the Sinwar example of how dangerous criminals can go on and kill more people. If life is grievable then so are their future potential victims.

Voting Issues

A. Shared agreements

The fundamental agreement is the same: Life is valuable and the state has certain moral obligations. The main point of contention is this: Does the state ever have moral permission, or even a moral obligation, to take life?

When evaluating that one question, I believe the answer is a resounding yes:

  1. Lethal force is sometimes necessary to stop attacks and save innocent lives.
  2. Crimes like terrorism, mass murder, and crimes against humanity are especailly grave.
  3. Certain criminals like Sinwar have proven themselves extremely dangerous and proven that they will continue killing if given the chance. Thus the death penalty permanently incapacitates such people and protects the lives of future victims.

Conclusion

When evaluating policy debates, we ought to select the policy that has actual utility. My framework is the only one that can guide the state and give a very clear criteria on the ethics of punishment. For that reason please vote con.

I am sorry to my opponent that my final round isn't as strong as it could have been. I've been a tad bit under the weather and extremely bus.y over the past several days.

New comment

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#43
--> @Alyssa

I'm not, but I also play Devils Advocate. Liberals HATE pedos now because of Trump.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#42

Haven't had the time to dig back into this over the last few days. I'll be getting into it next week.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#41

At last, I'm assigned to vote on this debate. Going to have to read back through the whole thing, but I'll get a vote up on this one in the next couple of days.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#40
--> @Kohai

Now that the game of Mafia's over, I've got the time. I'll be working on catching up on the Ultrarated debates over the next few days.

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Kohai Administrator
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#39
--> @Savant, @whiteflame

One vote left. Please vote

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#38
--> @LancelotDuLac

Also just noticed the "you didn't really read much of R3 specifically" does that mean you didn't evaluate any of the defenses of my framing? Because Kohai only really made them in R2 so that's the earliest I could've made them.

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#37
--> @LancelotDuLac

I'm not sure how I could've fit things into my framing that would challenge his when he hadn't made his case yet. What did you think about my R2 attacks on his framing and the attacks on proportionality?

Also, were you just specifically looking for policy arguments from me and didn't like the philosophical angle?

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#36
--> @Alyssa

Your framework relied too much on over-committing to an ideal, and it was incomplete. Reason versus power/authority is a great means for complying with the law.
But there is nothing in it to challenge Kohai's framework, as he uses yours to bolster his side.
Life is sacred, and taking a life is inhumane is a great statement to take at face value especially to oppose the death penalty.
But Kohai uses a model that acknowledges the same ideal but provides a correct way to apply the ideal, as well as rules to ensure that the method is not being abused.

Taking a life is horrific, but when framed by Kohai as ending a life to save more lives, he reframes the topic into a bigger picture objective. This is why he initially has the upper-hand and starts off strong. But you did a lot of damage when you brought up the deterrence and shown how his framework fails in practice.

If I were Pro, I would have doubled down on the arguments about deterrence and focused on the psychological harms the death penalty has on people, as well as the innocent people falsely accused.
You had a lot of missed opportunities and angles you could have used. Especially with the ethnic & racial discrimination, and corruption of the criminal justice system.
You had a lot of great potential here, and you could have won this easily in my opinion. Especially since this was on balance.
But you were holding back a lot, Con fought more powerfully, but your rebuttal lands a successful sneak-attack that costs him the victory.

While I read everyone's final round arguments. I use it more to review and look back for any details I missed, so I can give the sides the credit I didn't give them. But I don't really consider the final round during scoring, as voters are required to declare a winner/loser before the final round.

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#35

Thanks for the vote! Few questions:

1. I'm curious about what your interpretation of my Magsino argument was. I was extending it off as a reason for why, in order to even conceptualize/evaluate Pro's framing, we had to accept mine. You seemed to believe that our frameworks could co-exist, whereas I was trying to argue that my framework was a prerequisite to theirs. Was there something I could've done to make that clearer?

2. How did you, if at all, evaluate the argument I made in R3 that people escaping prison was nonunique since they can just escape pre-death penalty anyway?

3. Can you elaborate on what you meant when you said my framing was "too vague" to warrant voting for it?

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#34
--> @Alyssa, @Kohai

Great debate, guys.

I shall read through this today and have my vote up by the end of the day.

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#33
--> @RemyBrown

Wow! I didn't know you were *this* much of a fanboy.

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#32
--> @Alyssa

Should pedos get the death penalty?

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Savant Administrator
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#31
--> @Alyssa

1. Con appealed to proportionality and commonly shared moral intuitions. Butler uses some of that as well, so I was willing to say both frameworks passed Magsino's requirements, since he's seems to be arguing against appealing to power, not arguing against appealing to moral principles.

2. It was mitigation mainly (when people eventually do die, they can't escape), and an appeal to your framework again. So I still thought Con won some impact specifically on his framework even though your framework ended up being used and his impacts were mitigated.

3. Con failing many of the goals of justice was again mitigation, since you weren't trying to meet any of them.

Honestly, there may have been additional parts of your case I maybe could have given more credit to, but given that I voted you anyway, I was mostly focused on making sure I wasn't missing significant rebuttals from Con. At that point, it wouldn't matter how many arguments you made that I didn't mention since the result wouldn't change.

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#30
--> @Savant

Thanks for the vote! Couple questions:

1. I'm curious as to why you thought their framing was sufficient to meet the requirements of Magsino. My argument was that there needs to be some sort of external justification for why laws are good and bad and that their argument for their framing that "the government has a responsibility to protect people" wasn't sufficient. I'm guessing that wasn't your interpretation. Was there a better way to make this argument?

2. Did the argument that "people escaping prison to kill more is nonunique" factor into that discussion at all or did that come too late for you?

3. How did you evaluate the proportionality vs. the 'goals of justice' arguments I made?

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Kohai Administrator
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#29
--> @Savant

Thanks for the vote

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#28

I'll work on this in earnest after I've posted this next round.

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Kohai Administrator
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#27
--> @Savant, @whiteflame

Please vote. This was a tough debate and I can see this going either way

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#26

Eh damnit, made a small mistake in my last round. Whatever, way too late to go back and fix it.

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Kohai Administrator
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#25
--> @whiteflame

I’ll try and have my final round tonight. This was a tough debate and looks like it’ll be tough to judge.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
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#24

Going to have to get caught up on reading this one soon!

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Kohai Administrator
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#23
--> @Alyssa

Thank you for the debate. This was certainly a tough one. I’ll have my final round up later tonight or tomorrow.

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Kohai Administrator
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#22
--> @Alyssa

You can post now

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#21
--> @Kohai

I'm going to be busy tonight, so is it okay if I post my round in ~an hour?

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#20
--> @Kohai

:thumbsup:

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Kohai Administrator
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#19
--> @Alyssa

Actually post it around this time tomorrow.

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#18
--> @Kohai

You sure that gives you enough time for when you get back to respond?

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Kohai Administrator
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#17
--> @Alyssa

I think you’re safe to post them now if you want.

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#16
--> @Kohai

Alright, my R2 is done. Let me know when you want me to post it.

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#15

Nevermind, just reminded myself what chaos looked like and it doesnt work that well here. I *guess* I'll be boring instead...

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#14

Hmmm...to go for the R2 that guarantees a pretty clear road to victory but is boring, or the fun option that is just pure chaos...

whiteflame
whiteflame Global Moderator
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
This debate mainly comes down to who is winning on the framework level. That shouldn't be too surprising since most of Pro's argument comes down to framing and her contention relies heavily upon it: governments have an obligation to base their policies on moral norms and principles, grievability of life is such a fundamental principle, that principle precludes other ethical discussions, and it is best upheld by the government not taking lives, ergo abolishing the death penalty best upholds it.

Con does present his own framing, though it's not as clear as it could have been from the outset. Presenting the value of Justice and Proportionality as its criterion ends up begging the question a bit. Con does eventually get down to what is the most fundamental principle of his argument, which is utility. He's not so much just invoking the authority of the state as Pro says, but he is relying on a somewhat unclear metric for how to achieve a state actor that better upholds its end of the social contract. In particular, I think those two words - social contract - really should have appeared at some point in Con's argument because it establishes that there are constraints and duties owed by the government rather than that the government is a moral actor by default. I can understand why Pro would see it that way based on how Con framed it.

Most of the discussion from here on out that decides the debate is focused on these two means of framing the debate.

On Pro's framework, the lack of initial and direct responses to it from Con are a problem. They're not damning since he can always sever the link to Butler or undercut that argument severely enough that Pro's arguments for affirming her framework don't end up mattering as much, but nonetheless, it's always a good idea to put some ink on setup points like this. The agreement we get from Con in R2 should really have come with a clearer statement of what normative claim Con was supporting, rather than just a statement that a government has an obligation to protect its people. I think that's a good start, but it's not as much as should have been placed here.

A lot of Butler comes down to whether there are internal points of contradiction and I'm struggling to find anything substantial in the end. Con has a good point that there are other ways of inflicting violence that Pro implicitly allows by removing the death penalty and nothing else and that self-defense sometimes justifies a violent response, though the first point is mainly just a criticism of the limits of the resolution (Pro isn't required to take action against other elements of the justice system that also inflict violence and says she's focused on those elements that relate to life itself being grievable, which makes sense), and the second does get challenged on the basis that not all non-violence is passive. It's not as detailed of a point as I'd like to see from her, since it largely just suggests a means of response without providing specifics about how successful it is at achieving self-defense, but without a response to that from Con, I'm forced to buy that there is at least some means of self defense available, even if I don't know how effective it is.

Pro also makes a pretty clear case for why Con can't win on Butler, particularly by establishing that the death penalty necessarily doesn't adhere to principles of the grievability of life discussed in that argument. I didn't get the impression that Con was trying to win on that point, but if he was, that route is pretty clearly shut off.

So Con is ride or die on his own framework. Setting aside a lack of clarity in some places as previously mentioned, I think Con does a good job establishing why his impacts matter, but as the debate goes on, it becomes harder to connect with his initial framing of justice and proportionality. In the former case, I think Con would have been better served by presenting a different view of justice than the one he lays out in R1. If you know you won't be able to satisfy all 5 of those primary goals, then I don't see a reason to lay them out like that. Maybe some additional framing about why it's important for different elements of the justice system to cover these, pointing to parts of the system that address the other three, and then pointing to how the death penalty uniquely covers the remainder would have helped, but that seems like a lot of unnecessary work. Instead, though, Con had to defend why the death penalty's covering just two was sufficient, which weakens the point of connecting to justice at all and allows Pro to pounce.

As for proportionality, as Pro points out, the focus of Con's counterplan necessarily changes how proportionate any response can be. You can argue that it's still more proportionate than other possible responses, but then I'd have to know how to weigh that increase in proportionality. Does it matter that neither side achieves it fully? If not, why not? If you're going to make this your criterion, it has to be pretty clear how I'm weighing your points on it. So while I'm giving Con an edge here, I can't get a good bead on how much it matters.

Unfortunately, I think Con's biggest problem was his lack of willingness to go for solid impacts like deterrence. I get that it's hard to argue for and Pro had some pretty good pre rebuttals to it, but there were opportunities to make the point and argue that there's a societal good beyond just keeping people from recidivism. Con gets some credit for the possibility of prisoners escaping e.g. Sinwar, but as Pro points out, escapes are possible even with the death penalty given how long people spend in prison awaiting that outcome. So that point, which only rarely applies to begin with, was further mitigated by an argument that it's nonunique.

In general, I'm just looking for more from Con. I think he makes a case for utilitarian benefits that does work, but it's heavily mitigated and his framework ends up pretty bruised and battered in the process. By contrast, while Pro's framework comes with fewer solid impacts, it doesn't really need them. Pro establishes why her framework has precedence and makes a pretty strong case for how her case uniquely links to it. As Con pointed out, there was room to argue that application of Butler generally presented a lot of problems, but even if he's right and Pro is just arbitrarily applying Butler here and nowhere else, it's still a strong point in Pro's favor. I need reasons why inconsistent application of a moral principle is a problem as a counter to that, or at least enough to establish how life imprisonment and other forms of punishment that are left standing can be similarly damaging. Without that, I'm left to buy the grievability argument, which is where I pull the trigger.
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Burden of proof is shared.

Pro - Framing: Governments have an obligation to base their laws around morals & principles that can be protected.
Invoking power or authority should not be the cause for which people comply with the law. Reason should be the motivator.

And to understand moral responsibility, identity is a requirement. As through identity is life. And life being temporary & vulnerable is individualistic to every person. But despite this, the vulnerability is shared.
The other factor is grievability, and who best actualizes this grievability.
And the main contention is that the death penalty violates the grievability of life.

The Death Penalty is a permanent act of violence on someone else, which makes it impermissible. We cannot control the actions or behavior of others, but we are always responsible for how we respond. And we have the responsibility to show restraint, despite the desire to act revenge. Execution is an abuse of this responsibility to preserve the ego. (Pro is actually applying a very stoic value to this framework.)
The Death Penalty denies our shared vulnerability, which undermines identity.

Con - Framing - Justice is the main priority of importance. To fairly address cases of crime & wrongdoing. The measurer of fairness is proportionality, let the punishment fit the crime.

The five goals of the criminal justice system.
Retribution: Punishment to the criminal for what they did.
Rehabilitation: Preparing the criminal to lead a productive life outside the justice system.
Deterrence: Deterring people from committing crimes.
Incapacitation: Removing violent offenders from society
Restoration: Making restitution between a criminal and their victim(s).
The most important function of government is to protect the general welfare of the public.

Con turns Pro’s own point about grievability back around on them by mentioning the permanent incapacitation of dangerous people.
Con indirectly accuses Pro’s The Other philosophy of rejecting life imprisonment & self-defense. Giving examples of where violence is not only acceptable, but necessary.
Con then asks the rhetorical question of whether society must be prevented from stopping violent people in society. Con then uses Pro’s own argument of life & grievability to defend that the lives the murderer took are also worthy of consideration, and that Pro’s framework ignores them completely.

Con acknowledges that the death penalty upholds the grievability of life by preventing more lives from being lost to murdering offenders.
And that life imprisonment is unreliable because of its potentiality for future escapes and since the government has the obligation to protect people, it must consider this potentiality.

Con also supports his framework principle of fairness, comparing the death penalty to crimes such as mass murder, genocide, and terrorism.


To summarize round 1. Pro uses several philosophical appeals which borrow different moral frameworks that reject the innate right to authority to superior power, and instead supports granting it to superior reason. Which circumstantially denies government the right to use the death penalty, if the appeal is successful.

Con’s version prioritizes governments as having a duty to protect society, and that justice is its primary priority and means of doing so. And that fairness should be a requirement for justice, and that proportionality should be used to determine fairness. Nothing more, nothing less. An eye for an eye.


Round 2

Pro - I actually like the way Pro starts off this second round. Specifically when they state that we do not follow the law because the law is the law, we follow the law because the reasoning for the law is strong enough to be mutually agreed upon.

Extending their earlier argument about the value and precariousness of life, and the precariousness is harmed if it is removed. (Murder.)

Pro is pleading for us, the audience, to reject Con’s framing and to not give them a second chance if they attempt to provide one in the next round. But the difference in this debate is that the two framing styles don’t usually clash the way they would in other debates. Neither of them inherently refute the other and there’s room for both of them to co-exist, as Con actually used his own arguments to honor the principles in Pro’s framing.

However, Pro oversimplification of Con endorsing state-sponsored killing of people won’t stick as an accusation, if Pro does not meaningfully address his criticisms of life imprisonment or the proportionality of saving more lives by ending one life versus keeping an offender alive, thus risking more lives.

Unfortunately, Pro’s rebuttal here drops several arguments. Which that the death penalty honors the grievability of life by stopping more lives from being taken, and that life-imprisonment is insufficient because of the potentiality for escape. And while I buy Pro’s reasoning that they are not required to defend life-imprisonment, they are still required to at least provide an alternative or substitute to the death penalty in order to counter Con’s criticisms.
Because under Con’s version, abolishing the death penalty creates more problems than it solves.

But Pro does successfully shatter a huge part of Con’s framing by pointing out that it is self-refuting by failing to accomplish rehabilitation or restoration. Pro successfully proves that deterrence is not achieved by citing statistical studies.

Oh wow, this is impressive. Pro was actually losing the first round and nearly the second half, but this actually turns the tables in a significant way.
And then pointing out the death penalty’s goal of proportionality is overly ambitious for a mass murderer who took thousands of lives.
But I would have liked to see Pro somehow addressing Con’s argument of life imprisonment being inadequate because of the potentiality for more lives taken, if the convict escapes.

Con - Con here actually makes a successful recovery. Con essentially points out that Pro is strawmanning his side by mischaracterizing his arguments. Firstly, I mentioned earlier that Con’s framing doesn’t have to clash with Pro’s to be successful, as they can co-exist. Pro mentioned reason as the guiding force for laws & authorities, and Con’s side honors this principle by using proportionality & fairness to guide justice.

And Con pointing out that a punishment doesn’t need to satisfy all the factors in his criterion is a strong rebuttal, as it shows that Con was never arguing this. Con extending arguments about examples where violence is necessary never being refuted by Pro now means these arguments are dropped. As Pro never addresses her original claim of violence never being necessary, or clarifies.

On its own merit, Con’s framing also stands as the government having the obligation to protect the lives of its citizens. Since this goes unchallenged, it shall remain.
Con meaningfully counters Pro about while they cannot protect dead victims, they can protect future lives.
Con also shows that Pro’s source contradicts her own claim about violence never being acceptable, when Butler clearly concedes as such.

During the final round. Pro mentions that Con accepts her framework, but this isn’t a negative thing. Because Con’s framework can co-exist, and even strengthens Pro’s framework. But in the end, the burden of proof is shared. And Pro’s philosophical appeals are too vague to warrant changing a whole policy. While Con at least offers multiple reasons for the existence of the death penalty. As Pro did successfully dismantle Con’s case about deterrence and failing other factors of proportionality. But the case of trading one life to prevent more lives from being taken scales the balance back in Con’s favor.

Here is the gap between pro and Con’s points and how they zig-zag in different directions.
Pro mentions that the death penalty does not actually deter criminals from committing crime.
Con mentions that the death penalty can preserve life by preventing the offender from taking more lives. This is not actually a defense for deterrence, and Pro drops this point.
This is the deciding factor, that if it were refuted by Pro. Would have given Pro the win.
Savant
Savant Administrator
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con
Winner
Pro’s proposed framework is the grievability of life. Pro’s first justification for her framework is a quote from Magsino. Basically, the authority of the state doesn’t justify itself. This ends up not really mattering, because Con’s argument is a moral framework and not just “might makes right.” Con isn’t using the exact terms “utilitarianism” or “deontology,” but it’s pretty clear he’s not merely invoking authority. Next is the quote from White. The self is constantly in relation to social others and is vulnerable. This doesn’t really contradict Con’s case on its own and is mainly here to set up Butler.

Following Magsino and White, Pro provides a slew of quotes from Butler to justify their framework. This comes down to a few points:
We celebrate life, so it must be grievable
Framing related to the self precedes other framing justifications
Our relation to the other has to do with the self
Vulnerability precedes the formation of the “I” and thus precedes other frameworks.

That concludes Pro’s framing.

At the contention level, Pro argues that their framing implies a prohibition on all violence because of the relation to the other that preempts other framing and rejects shared vulnerability. Con immediately challenges this, citing self-defense, life imprisonment (and later rehabilitation itself) as forms of violence, arguing that a prohibition on all of it is impractical. And Butler admits self-defense is justified apparently, so we can’t accept Pro’s framing and arguments without falling into a contradiction. Pro’s response is that Butler supports self-defense but only in cases where it’s nonviolent. I think there was room for Con to argue that “aggressive forms of nonviolence” aren’t actually nonviolent, but he never responds to that point directly, so I’m left with enough of a distinction between violence and nonviolent self-defense (in theory, at least), that Pro’s case doesn’t seem self-contradictory. Pro basically just bit the bullet by saying you can’t kill to save your own life, and I don’t think Con did enough with that biting of the bullet to tear down Pro’s framing.

Con asks “what makes Butler the final authority?” but Pro is citing arguments, not just appealing to Butler’s opinion, so I don’t think this is enough to challenge Pro’s framing. Additionally, Pro is making a case that their framing preempts all other framing because it’s “grounded in how we ought to construct the individual,” and I don’t see Con responding to that point directly. So if Con can’t win under Pro’s framing, I have to vote Pro. And right from the start, Pro is giving me Butler quotes on why I should apply this framing in a deontological way because of the ethical demand of the Other. Basically, a Batman no-kill rule.

Ultimately, Con’s arguments aren’t connected enough to the vulnerability of the self and the connection with the other to win under Butler’s specific framing. Even if I accept that the punishment is proportionate and prevents future victims, killing still disrupts the connection with the other, and that precedes everything else, so apparently it’s unjustified.

Meanwhile, Con’s framework is trying to do a few things (protect potential victims, punish the criminal, and be proportionate) which is all packaged as “justice.” Pro points out that this is not proportionate for mass murderers, and that Con seems to be contradicting his source on proportionality by not actually supporting the death penalty for those people. This mitigates Con’s impacts a lot (doesn’t destroy them though cause I can buy that death is more proportionate than life in prison even if not equivalent.) I think Con’s impact from killers escaping and killing more people still stands, since deterring killings is different from physically preventing a killer from killing more people like Sinwar and Kennedy, which Pro doesn’t directly address. I think Pro could have argued that current US maximum-security prisons would prevent this, but they do not. So Con gets some impact.

In the end, this really comes down to Pro’s argument that the relation to the other and shared vulnerability pre-empts alternative framings. Con mainly argues against Butler indirectly, and Pro shows the charge of self-contradiction aren’t really true with regard to Butler’s case. Pro’s case is deontological, not a utilitarian, and so Pro winning impacts on her framework pre-empts the impact Con wins on his. Hence, my vote goes to Pro.

I think Con’s biggest opportunity here would have been to really dig more into the Butler quotes from the start. Butler had a long chain of reasoning, and I think attacking one or two of the weakest links would have made the framing more winnable for Con and perhaps allowed their impacts to carry the day. I think Pro did fine here overall, but with character space being limited it may have helped to make framing more concise and not rely as much on a long chain of reasoning. I wasn’t giving much weight to Butler just on account of her being a famous philosopher; if Pro had made much the same case in her own words, it would have carried the same weight for me. I also don’t think the White and Magsino quotes ended up mattering here, as they were mainly there to set up Butler, and Butler’s case really said all it needed to.