Well , where you been?

Last I remember, you continued to forfeit these things.

What brings you back?

I don't expect the opposing side will be available as much as the other topics have already forfeited in rounds currently.

I post this for the readers.

The three persons trinity doctrine is false according to the scripture.

Scripture says according to Proverbs 30 it says "Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar".

So once I see adding to what is written, it's false , it's a lie.

Scripture say let God be true and every man a liar. It is true what is written and a lie or false what is not .

So when we have the scripture that says God is a spirit, it is a lie to say God is three persons.

Scripture that says but unto us there is one God, the Father, it is a lie to say but unto us there is one God the Father the first person.

Scripture says this one God who is spirit and is Father is holy and is a lie to say the Father who is God is not holy and not spirit by saying he is not holy Spirit.

Likewise with saying Jesus is not Father God. Can't be one and not the other. To say Jesus is God but not Father is likewise to saying the Father is God but not spirit. Can't be one and not the other.

I think I've discovered where the crux of the issue lies with the three person doctrine. Often times, the book of John is referenced and the only way to make SENSE OF IT , is inventing the three person concept.

In order to understand in a natural sense, the only carnal interpretation is looking at this in human terms with conceptualizing all this as "three persons".

We can't read "three persons" anywhere in scripture but evidently it's not about everything being written so we know we aren't adding to scripture but it's an idea of a way to explain natural interpretation.

Whether this was a catholic interpretation or a division or denomination interpretation that theologically crafted the concept, that's what it is.

As far as what we can read, it's just flesh and spirit, spirit and flesh. The spirit took on flesh. The word became flesh.

That flesh was to be given for the life of the world.

So God laid down his life according to the scripture.

Jesus said I lay down my life for the sheep.

The scriptures teach , God had a chosen people for himself. His people was always to be a holy people.

That's what the scriptures teach. He has predestined those that should be holy.

Those whom he chose, not whom chose him but he whom he chose. Know ye that the Lord he is of whom God hath chosen.

Let's not do the my view versus your view where no one engages the other nor receive anything to the point that we might as well just be in our separate camps to echo what we believe.

I believe in order to learn, make progress, make some point of a crossover, I ask the opposite side to just begin with cross examination and come back with questions on everything that was said.

Alright let's get to the questions minus all the foolishness.

"What is your understanding of how the atonement works?"

Let's make an example right here about according to as it is written regardless you believing I'm consistent with it or not . You bear false witness, your words testify against you and let you be a liar like the scripture says.

Let's go to Daniel 9.

"24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e] "

This has the first part of the word you used. This connects to what I said about a holy people. To atone is decreed to finish and end transgression and sin to bring everlasting righteousness.

With everlasting righteousness, is there going to be anymore sin anywhere? To atone for all wickedness, all people, all sin would be ended. But the scriptures teach workers of iniquity will depart from eternal life.

See this scripture will help open up your understanding about Romans 5: and Hebrews 2.

****Question for the opposing side.****

Being that to atone for wickedness, is decreed to put an end to it, why is putting an end to it done with the lake of fire for those departed if the anointed one, the anointed savior and lamb already put an end to it?

"Jesus appeased the wrath of the Father and gave all humans a new chance. Penal substitution is false."

Let me ask this question. Going to the book of Thessalonians, right, chapter 5 of the first epistle, starting at verse 9, it reads:

"9 For God has not destined us to receive[wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, 10 who died for us in order that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

Who is the "us" in these verses?

"Who decides the meaning of the Bible?"

God decides. How do we know God has decided?

It is because we read his words AS IS AS IS without adding to his PURE WORDS like we read in Proverbs 30. So when you add words and say so and so is the second person in the Godhead or third person, God never said that anywhere so you're adding a whole other meaning to the scripture. You add to it, you take away, you twist it, corrupt it , water it down, use it deceitfully, hold it unrighteousness.

Scripture say God is the judge.

" Why do you trust yourself more than me?"

If I actually did , that be in error. Trusting myself means leaning on my own understanding. I think I've communicated with you enough about this that at this point, you just don't get it with a hardened heart. Understanding of this has simply not been opened up for you.

All these debate topics I've had, every last one of them has required what the scripture actually says to prove the point.

We have to finally get clear the difference between what it says, what is written versus scriptural concept or theological ideas .

Instead of getting lost in some seminary or cemetery training, get back to what the book actually reads.

Just for a simple example, I say find me where it's written that God invented christianity. People will actually get some verse that they must extrapolate and build a whole theological interpretation around instead of just finding something that is written.

Scripture say we having the same spirit of faith according to as it is written. Just as plain as that.

Why all this other stuff? I do believe it's a part of the great falling away, christianity included,the scripture teaches about.

I can find written where God said and predestined for his people to be holy. Scripture reads about holy faith. But on average the people say we're christians, we're baptists, we're pentecostals, we're orthodox christians, we're Jehovah's witnesses, we're TRINITARIANS, we're calvinists, we're seven day adventists and Martin Lutherans, catholics, roman catholics etc.

Man has invented and ADDED all this to what God said his people to be and believe in. I grant that many of these groups don't even believe in not adding to scripture and believe in even revelation beyond.

This is my whole point about where the end of it is. The foundation and chief cornerstone is the first and the last, the end.

" What makes the Church Fathers wrong when they also read the Bible?"

The "church Fathers" are the .......every man.....God is true, let God be true and every man a liar. So God , the holy spirit is the guide and teacher.

Calling no other man your father but the one holy Father spirit, you need no man teach you.

"Where was your church in each century? "

Let me teach something here..........by guide of the word the spirit of course. My name is not Jesus Christ. So it's not MY CHURCH. All according to scripture, it's his church that HE BUILT.

" If you can't trace your church back to the Apostles, it is a false church. Your church doesn't even have a name. You refuse to call it any name."

I believe he said TO AN APOSTLE, because HE IS, WAS, IS THE ROCK, the chief cornerstone, "upon this rock I will build my church " so the name of that church is to who it belongs, church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Just as the name of the Father son and holy Spirit, is Lord Jesus. Not presbyterian church, not trinity methodist church.

Which church was built according to scripture, the one that Jesus Christ said he will build so it can't be identified no further than the one Jesus Christ, so it's called the church that Jesus Christ built or church of Jesus Christ or the Lord Jesus's church built upon this rock. That's the only name we have.....Jesus Christ...... which quite appropriately no other name, not catholic, not christian, no other name can men be saved by according to scripture, that name is what gets you in the church. Which church? Church of Jesus Christ, the church the Lord Jesus built.

That's it. That's it. Did your so called church fathers add to what the name of the church is ?

Did THEY TAKE THE NAME OUT?

DID THEY TELL YOU GOD IS A PERSON?

DID THEY TELL YOU FATHER GOD IS THE FIRST PERSON?

DID THEY TELL YOU HE IS THE LORD AND THERE'S NONE BESIDES HIM?

You got a number of questions here so I'll end off here and you consider what I say and eventually answer and concede or not answer and concede.

"But that's not how I see it. It's all because of your penal substitution understanding of atonement. I do not believe in unconditional election either."

I really can't help that you don't see or don't understand what the scripture teaches about the Savior being a sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 6 and 6

"and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace"

Once your sin has been paid for and crucified to the cross canceling the debt , God forgives his debtors right, sinning again whether saved or not according to your position, would be Christ being crucified, dying over and over. That's why it don't line up.

Scripture basically say he died once .

If the savior already made the sacrifice , just the one sacrifice and has paid for the sin, why is the person he already paid for still paying for it in the lake of fire?

The answer is obvious but if you think you have an answer written from scripture, provide it or say you're unsure .

If the savior already made the sacrifice , just the one sacriface and has paid for the sin, why is the person he bought with his blood still paying for it in the lake of fire?

"I believe the "us" in the verse will change depending on the readers understanding of why Jesus died. Some will see it as those who are predestined to be saved, while others will see it as all of humanity. I take the latter position. I don't believe anyone to be predestined to damnation. That would make God unjust. The damned are responsible for their own damnation. God wants all to be saved."

You have to stop seeing what you want to see and READ your answer. In these verses and in these passages will tell us the answer. They will tell us who the "us" is. Now do you care to actually read your answer proving with scripture as opposed to subjective interpretation or the way "you see" something?

If you just want to stick to your personal beliefs and not actually read, learn and come to the knowledge of the truth, it's completely stiff-necked and voids the point of this exchange.

If you want to make another attempt, I'll give you another try next round, to get scripture because I will get scripture.

Who is the "us" according to scripture, not according to what or how anyone sees but by book chapter and verse what is written?

"Why do you believe you, Mal, are unable to twist God's word?"

I never said I believe that. If you want to add to God's words, go ahead, let him that is unrighteous be unrighteous still and a liar.

The point is not to add so don't distract from that point. That's the point and it's of the devil to distract from that .

"How do you know you're right? Don't those with hardened hearts also think they are right?"

You or anybody can THINK whatever you and they think. You know these things are so because the scripture basically says searching the scriptures daily to see whether these things are so.

Scripture say "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know".

It say " have I written". How many times do I say it to get through the hardened heart?

You know by what is written...now ....it...gets no plainer than it . Just something you can't seem to register. I have my suspicions why...if you weren't taught this.... it'll be hard to kick against the prick.

"If you're going to say God didn't invent Christianity, then what religion did God invent? What movement did Jesus start?"

Holiness.

Jesus basically said he was the way. God said be holy. Jesus never said be christian. God never said be christian. JESUS never said upon this rock according to scripture, I will build christianity. So where did "christianity" come from?

Jesus said "I am the way" and scripture say "And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness;" .

All this is written. This is the stark difference in what I'm saying and much of the religious world is that much of it has strayed away, fallen away from written scripture. Maybe much of the religious world don't hold to Scripture.

Scripture teaches about the great falling away. Scripture teaches about hearts being far from him.

"So if any church calls itself the church of Christ, it is the real Church?"

I guess you have to ask Jesus. If any church is called the church that Christ built, why not asked the builder? The church didn't build itself, don't ask the church , ask the chief cornerstone.

Jesus Christ was questioned behind the things he said. The Jewish religious leaders, Nicodemus didn't ask or get his answers that he got from none other than Jesus that preached.

Jesus basically said himself I believe, he came in the volume of the book. The book is about him. So the church organization that is supposed to be the church in the Lord Jesus would have what?...... teachings of or from the Lord Jesus, right. Otherwise, why would Jesus be Lord to a church that doesn't do what he taught?

It comes back to what is written written written written written.

If you get nothing else from me on biblical topics, bible chapter and verse. Bible chapter and verse. Bible chapter and verse. Scripture scripture scripture scripture.

"How can one easily distinguish a false church from the real Church?"

Just like you distinguish false prophets .

Supposedly prophesizing in the name of the Lord. The book says come out from among them.

Let's get 2 Corinthians 6:16

"For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them

and walk among them,

and I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

17 Therefore,

“Come out from them

and be separate,

says the Lord.

Touch no unclean thing,

and I will receive you.”

18 And,

“I will be a Father to you"

There is a church in the Lord and there are the ones you have to come out from not in the Lord and this Lord whom is the holy ghost said he will be a Father to you .

So much for "distinct persons".

It never says. This is why using scripture alone doesn't work. And isn't adding chapter and verse adding to the word of God?

No. It does say, you just don't know. You have to study to show yourself approved. You're not approved to speak on this topic. Then you use the excuse of "This is why using scripture alone doesn't work." as it doesn't work for you because you lack understanding.

The eunuch lacked understanding and what did Philip do? He didn't say "well I can't help you much by using scripture, I gotta go else where because I can make a bogus loophole that people add to scripture in some way so it can give me justification in adding to it where the book says ADD THOU NOT".

Like the book basically says, why seek to be loosed?

Why do you seek a way out, seek to be loosed from what it commanded?

As the book teaches, man goes around establishes his own righteousness with his own doctrine. Like you didn't know the scripture to get the answer to the question, you don't know about scripture teaching exactly what you are representing.

"It never says" .

Scripture says speak on what you know. How do you know it doesn't say?

Be honest and say you don't know.

Let me get the scripture as the book says "That which I see not teach thou me".

You don't see, it's gotta be taught.

Like the eunuch. By saying scripture alone doesn't work , that goes against it being good or profitable for teaching, correction and training in righteousness. That goes against it being written before time written for our learning because alone it should work for those things.

So these types of topics are falling on deaf ears. They're pointless, fruitless to a hardened heart.

For the public and future readers, leaving them alone after the second or third admonishment.

1 Thessalonians 5

"9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

The US is them that Christ died for. Answer is right here . Who HAVE NOT been appointed to wrath.

Is this everyone in existence period?

The opposing side didn't want to answer or couldn't answer as it would lead to exposing what is really a non scriptural doctrine. The opposite side admits that scripture is not good or profitable alone so of course the opposite side has non scriptural positions but yet takes on these topics. What's the point?

Book says

"but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast. "

This is all for nought.

The "us" is them he died for and this is not every person that has ever lived upon going up to verse two.

"2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

So there's "yourselves" and "they". The "they" are "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" and I know sudden destruction comes with wrath. We shouldn't have to go there and try to prove that.

"4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Constant "ye" and the "ye" is the "we" is the "us".

"7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

It is learned that "they" are not the "ye" , not the "us", not the "we". Two different trajectories and and an appointment not of what is to be obtained.

The debunks the opposite side completely out on this subject.

The "us" is them Christ died for, the "us" is the children of the light , children of the day. Christ was the light John bare or bore witness of.

"Mal says we cannot be Christians because Jesus never said to be a Christian. What else did Jesus never say to do? Jesus never said to baptize in the name of Jesus. He said to do it in the name of the Trinity. Mal thinks that the Apostles clarified what Jesus meant. So much for the extreme interpretation of "all men are liars." Jesus never said to read the Bible and never told the Apostles to write the Bible."

Scripture said let every man be a liar. The opposite side is no exception.

"He says that just because they were called Christians doesn't mean we should be called Christians. But why do you say to search the scriptures daily? Men decided to do that, not God. Jesus never said to search the scriptures daily."

You just don't know your Bible son and I'm punching the air like 1 Corinthians 9 teaches dealing with you.

"Why do you demand the exact words "distinct persons" when you don't have the exact words "Jesus is the Father" in scripture either?"

Oh it doesn't have to be in a single verse. It can line upon line . You put verses together and it'll be written.

JESUS being the Father is not written in a single verse so one line of who is lined up with another line saying who God is.

Jesus was called God with us in one verse and in another verse it says unto us one God the Father.

So Jesus called God with us .............the Father.

Do we get?

Jesus being the light John bares witness of is in one and in another, the verse I just went in 1 Thessalonians 5, children of light. Now children of a man would be a father, the MAN Christ Jesus who is God with us is the Father.

Do we get ?

So it doesn't have to be in a single verse, just WRITTEN WRITTEN WRITTEN. WHETHER IN ONE VERSE OR IN SEVERAL LINES OF SCRIPTURE THAT CAN BE HARMONIZED, WHY?

JESUS SAID.....SINCE YOU WANT TO KICK THIS " WHAT DID JESUS SAY" WHILE AT THE SAME TIME BEING A HYPOCRITE SAYING IT DOESN'T WORK ALONE AND THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE FOR TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND I BELIEVE JESUS SAIDDDDDD "LO I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK".....JESUS SAID " TO FULFILL ALLLLL RIGHTEOUSNESS"........Jesus saidddd "the scripture is not broken" so every line goes upon line upon line upon line.

The problem is you stop or was taught to stop with one line and not lay it upon another and you build doctrine off of one line or verse or was taught that by those that do that.

You got no scripture or a piece of scripture with at least a line saying the holy Spirit is a person. You have no other line saying the holy Spirit is third to say the holy Spirit is the third person. That's the difference.

No scripture or a line of a verse that says "distinct " and another line saying "persons".

Got nothing.

"Can you give an example of anyone who belonged/belongs to the true church from 101 AD-2026 AD? I'd prefer as many examples as possible. One in each century if you can."

1 Thessalonians 5. That's the true church right there, the ones Christ died for, the sheep, he laid down his life for.

Scripture doesn't work alone for you so what in the world many examples gone do?

"Why don't the Apostles scold anyone for calling them Christians?"

You can ask the apostles. I don't scold anyone for using the term "christian". Just remember the focus is being what God told you to be. You can call yourself Christian, Catholic, Muslim, whatever. If you aren't a HOLY NATION, calling yourself these other things don't mean a thing.

Scripture says "Remember the LORD Your God".

So remember what he said. He said be holy. Evidently people hardly ever say they're holy but say they are everything else. It's all a part of the great falling away, people don't realize..

Remember the LORD Your God

So holiness is no longer a belief, but it's christianity, it's adding everything else to the scripture because apparently to some "it doesn't work".

Remember the LORD Your God

He said be holy for I am holy.

Jesus said be perfect, he didn't even say be christian. So the focus is not being and calling yourself christian. He said be perfect as the Father. You are a holy nation, sanctified, peculiar people, Royal priesthood, children of God. The term "christian" is not even in there because man out of his mind coined the term.

So Remember the LORD Your God

because, if you're not all these other things, you'll be a christian standing before God saying have I not this and that and you're sent to depart.

Remember the LORD Your God

"Who sent you to preach (if you preach)? Or who sent someone who holds office in your church?"

If God ever sends and anoints me to preach like Jonah and Isaiah , it'll be God himself or anybody anywhere.

"Who is your church leader on earth? "

Yes

"Do you have any church authority?"

No

"Was Ignatius of Antioch part of the true church?"

Depends on what the scripture teaches .

"Was Sabellius part of the true church?"

Depends on what the scripture teaches .

"Can we see the true church?"

Yes.

"Are you a modalist?"

No.

Case closed.

I wish you well in Life.