New "quality and voting activity" based elo system proposal - Voting gets rewarded by elo as well - Current Elo systems dont reward quality of votes or votes at all

Started by SatanLucy

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#1 •••

Right now, on debate craft, we have 2 systems for elo: Rated and ultrarated


Rated currently doesnt reward voting at all. It also doesnt reward quality effort. Someone who loses a debate will lose elo even if he put in a lot of effort in debate, he gets punished. And someone who placed a lot of effort to vote doesnt get any benefit in elo.


So, to put it simply:


Reward incentive for voting in "rated debates" is basically non-existent.


People who put in a lot of effort in debate, but lose, get punished and it becomes difficult to recover from loss.


there are no elo rewards for participation in a debate.



Ultrarated didnt solve the problem, because elo still only rewards wins in debate. Someone can cast many good votes in ultrarated, only to find it to be of no any elo gain, and losing debate places person lower on leaderboard irrelevant of quality of votes person gave or effort put in. System only rewards debate victory in elo, not quality of votes.



Current ultrarated was shown to be very slow, and rated was shown to make users quit the site, because once person starts losing elo, it becomes more difficult to recover it, and person feels punished for participating in a debate.



NEW Elo system - "Advnaced Elo Debate"


What I propose is not removing rated or ultrarated, or changing them. Just leave them intact for now.


What I propose is introducing a 3rd elo rating system, so when people choose "debate type", there is "advanced elo debate" among options.


What is advanced elo debate system?


It is a system designed to reward both quality and activity. Winner in debate would get most elo. But loser in debate would get elo as well. And people who vote on debate would get elo as well by voting.


Elo distribution looks like this:


Winner - 100% of Elo


Voter - 60% of elo


Loser - 40% of elo



So lets say that gained elo is 10.


Winner gets 10 elo.


Each voter gets 6 elo.


Loser gets 4 elo.



Why this system works? Because once people compete in it, debate leaderboard looks like this:


On top of leaderboard, you will naturally have people with most wins and most votes. So to be on top of leaderboard, you must not only win a lot, but also vote a lot, to be on top of leaderboard.


Behind them, there will be people who win a lot, but dont vote a lot.


Behind those, there will be people who lose a lot, but vote a lot.


Behind those, there will be people who lose a lot and dont vote a lot.


Behind those, will be people with very little activity.


Behind those, will be people with almost no activity.



this elo system creates a hierarchy where both activity and quality matters. And inactive debaters who are inactive voters end up on bottom of leaderboard eventually even if they are on top now, while active debaters and active voters who also win a lot and provide quality end up on top of leaderboard.


this elo system forces activity to keep elo ranking, while rewarding quality and activity the most.


this elo system also rewards voting. People have more reason to vote good vote on a debate because their own elo benefits from it.


this elo system rewards participation as well. People have more reason to participate more because their elo gets rewarded a bit by participating instead of being punished for participation.



this elo system is a proposed experiment. Similar elo systems exist on Modern day debate discord where more activity means you rank up more.



the proposition is to simply add a 3rd elo system. those who want ultrarated can still do ultrarated. those who want rated can still do rated. Nothing changes there. Elo in rated and ultrarated is unaffected. Users just get a 3rd option of elo system, "advanced elo", and in this elo system, people gain elo for all acceptable votes they cast on any debate in "advanced elo debate" type, and they also gain elo for participating in debate under "advanced elo debate" type, and they get elo for winning in such debate types, obviously.



this proposed system is merely a proposed experiment. If it works, we can expand it, so that other elo systems start rewarding votes as well, or that votes on any debate in rated, ultrarated or advanced elo debate, count towards "advanced elo" rating.



this elo system is simply designed to reward "winning and voting" more than anything else, but also to reward voting. We currently lack sufficient rewards for votes. A lot of debates wait too long for votes. A lot of debates end up without votes, and that works against site's activity. Quality votes currently dont carry any elo rewards, and elo rewards are only gained when winning a debate, not when casting a quality vote.


Our site needs plenty of voters as much as it needs debaters, for any elo system to work in the first place.


Its time to start rewarding voters for their votes, with rewards which matter.


Someone else suggested paying voters to vote, and that is a somewhat working idea, assuming owner can afford that. If we payed 1$ to people per vote, sure, we would suddenly get a lot of users on site who seek to earn money off this site. But that would be very difficult to afford long term, would cost thousands per month if userbase increases.

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#2 •••

Also, this system of elo should focus on only displaying positive values on user's profile, to encourage motivation. it shouldnt show win rate, but it should show number of wins person has and number of votes person casted in total.


Displaying negative values, such as "loss rate, number of losses", acts as negative for motivation.


Avoid displaying negative values. Only display what is positive. there is a reason a lot of sites removed dislike button,

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#3 •••
@SatanLucy
So to be on top of leaderboard, you must not only win a lot, but also vote a lot, to be on top of leaderboard.

That's already true for UltraRated, because you need vote badges to do debates.

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#4 •••
@Savant

But the remaining isnt true for ultrarated, because no direct reward for voting exists. You can cast as many votes as you want. You gain no elo, and even get punished and lose elo if you dont win debates. Currently, voting only pays off if you actually win a debate, which for 50% of people isnt true right now on leaderboard.


I am not saying this system I propose is perfect. I am sure there are many better systems possible which I am not aware of, or like the virtual currency ranking system we discussed on discord. But site needs a push towards something new, and merely proposing a system often leads to new innovations even if original proposed system isnt accepted at all.


We simply need 3-4 things:

reward for wins

reward for votes

reward for activity

reward for effort / quality


Right now we are:

Rewarding wins

Not rewarding votes

Punishing activity

"Not rewarding" or punishing effort and quality

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#5 •••

Now we're talking.


These are engaging, high-quality posts I love to see.

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#6 •••
@LancelotDuLac

Yep, we can have gold stars if we're good little boys and girls.


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#7 •••
@SergeantLynch

Every person likes seeing their virtual stick grow. No one likes seeing their virtual stick shrink. I will keep pushing for innovation until this site has some quality reward system for almost every type of action done on site. People need reward systems, even if imaginary or virtual. Roblox proved this. You have 200 million people on Roblox trying desperately to obtain virtual items. We need something like that as well. Long term this site should be turned into more of a game type site than merely a debate site. We must add some sort of a gameplay to this site to exist along side debating.


I have many other ideas, such as adding live chat, voice chat, maybe even video chat, channels, live group chats...ect. Maybe long term even enable posting of shorts videos on site if site reaches some very high growth.


Site needs to be everything for everyone. It even should have its own "educational classes" like chess.com has for chess. People want education too, not just debating. Site should provide education, not just place new people in debate arena to be punched.


But this is long term strategy. Currently, we first need a better reward system.

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#8 •••
@SatanLucy

Unless they pay us in chocolate or cash, rewards are of no real value...Like I stated, badges are like gold stars in Primary School.


Though next time there is a Presidential vote I will vote for you....As long as your manifesto contains free chocolate.

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#9 •••
@SergeantLynch
Unless they pay us in chocolate or cash


there could be cash rewards too. We will see how it goes. Site can set up a system where if you earn enough virtual currency, you can exchange it for some cash. tho people are also crazy for virtual items like in roblox. Maybe this site can make its own game similar to most popular games in roblox, but where doing activity on site earns currency, currency can be traded for items in game. this is long term thinking, but I think social games with virtual items are current hot thing. We must follow hot things.


tho of course, cash is biggest motivation for most people, and I think this site can make a currency system where people first have to earn a lot of currency by quality site activity, and then after earning required currency, can exchange it for some cash. Nothing much. Just enough to spark interest.


tho a combination of cash rewards, elo rewards, currency rewards, and virtual items rewards covers needs of greatest number of people.

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#10 •••

I have some items and pets in roblox game adopt me, and I have no issue with donating them to maybe further fuel the site. Site can provide rewards in roblox items too, especially because if enough people play roblox here, they already have some items, and can maybe donate some to fuel site's activity.

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#11 •••
@SatanLucy

If you wanna make a post offering items to people who provide votes (especially on UltraRated), go ahead. We might need it.

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#12 •••
@Savant

Alright, tho I dont know how many people here play roblox.

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