Lincoln is overrated

Started by Ultracrepidarian

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#1 •••

Abe Lincoln is the favorite president of many Americans, and he's often regarded as one of if not the best. Why is that though? Granted, he won the civil war, but the North had huge advantages in infrastructure, resources, industrial capabilities, and population. If anything, I believe Lincoln made it worse with his distrust of military officials.


Obviously, it's a great that slavery was abolished, but that wasn't Lincolns doing. Initially, he opposed abolitionism and issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military strategy. Thank god for Fredrick Douglass because I do not think Lincoln would have abolished slavery on his own.


Lincoln also authorized a mass execution of Dakota men, something that doesn't get remembered enough.


Why do people view Lincoln as so magnificent? Is there something I'm missing?


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#2 •••

When I was a kid, I thought his logs were a lot of fun, plus he's got the car, the penny and the five-dollar bill, and it's probably too late to change Mount Rushmore now.

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#3 •••
@Ultracrepidarian

Overrated suddenly becomes worthy of contempt? Who among us in America, including Lincoln, was and is perfect? Lincoln would tell us, including himself, that no one is.

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We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#4 •••

I should say I don't dislike Lincoln, I only think he was not as great of a leader history views him as

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#5 •••
@Ultracrepidarian

Despite McClellan denying wanting to be Dictator, I don't think he would have been so displeased.

"I almost think that were I to win some small success now I could become Dictator or anything else that might please me — but nothing of that kind would please me — therefore I won’t be Dictator. Admirable self denial!”

-George B. McClellan

https://www.mrlincolnandnewyork.org/new-yorkers/george-b-mcclellan-1826-1885/index.html


Chose, managed and worked with a team of rivals. Many of them men with high ambitions of their own who did not think highly of Lincoln.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_of_Rivals


"Lincoln had become widely known for his anti-slavery stance and seemed to fit solidly into a political party that abhorred slavery and wanted to see it eradicated. Democrats, especially Southerners, depicted the Republicans as an abolition party and issued dire warnings that Lincoln would take action to free the slaves if elected president. Lincoln, on the other hand, claimed to have no power as president to free the slaves, although he asserted presidential authority to block the spread of slavery into the territories."

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/republican-party-platform-of-1860


I think that Lincoln was a realist with good intentions.

And that the Emancipation Proclamation was about practicality, more than never or not wanting to.

. . . Though without the Civil War, maybe he would have taken the longer view of abolishing slavery, first by preventing it's spread into new states if he could.

Sure he could have run for president on the Emancipation Proclamation or done it at any time during his presidency, but if the result is failure and misery, how can one say one is trying to do good?

So he choose a better time for it.


I think Fredrick Douglass 'was an influence on Lincolns views, which earlier seemed to take the tack of emigrating African Americans away from America.

. . But, I also think not every president would have been as open as Lincoln was to having his mind changed. As willing to talk and listen.

Course, one could argue there were pure Abolitionists who wouldn't have 'needed their minds changed, but a strong tree without any flex can break. Maybe various theoretical Abolitionist Presidents wouldn't have been able to do what Lincoln did. Leaning too strong into their right cause, perhaps it would have failed to unite and maneuver as politics demands.

https://www.whitehousehistory.org/frederick-douglass-and-abraham-lincoln


"the Dakota, who were facing starvation and displacement, attacked the Lower Sioux Agency and white settlements along the Minnesota River valley in southwest Minnesota.[7] The war lasted for five weeks and resulted in the deaths of hundreds of settlers and the displacement of thousands more.[8] In the aftermath, the Dakota people were exiled from their homelands, forcibly sent to reservations in the Dakotas and Nebraska, and the State of Minnesota confiscated and sold all their remaining land in the state.[8] Thirty-eight Dakota men were subsequently hanged for crimes committed during the conflict in the largest mass execution in US history.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862


"The surrendered Dakota men and their families were held while military trials took place from September to November 1862. Of the 498 trials, 303 men were convicted and sentenced to death.[8]: 72  President Lincoln commuted the sentences of all but 38.[84] A few weeks prior to the execution, the convicted men were sent to Mankato, while 1,658 Natives and "mixed bloods", including their families and the "friendly" Dakota, were sent to a compound south of Fort Snelling.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862


Not 'ideal, but I don't think Lincoln looks 'so bad in this 'specific incident.

What a mess, American expansion West.

I'd argue not 'purely one sided.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


From what I've read of him, I think Lincoln was overall a magnificent person and leader, though not without flaws.


Read and mostly taught himself the law.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/lincoln/practicing-law.html


Served in war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_in_the_Black_Hawk_War


A great debater.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln–Douglas_debates


Grew up in a log cabin, to me it's 'astounding how high he reached, how much he developed himself from his start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Log_Cabin_State_Historic_Site


I forget the exact wording,

But from what I recall reading, Lincoln wasn't too hands on the military and it's actions,

He was able to recognize when others had ability he lacked, and delegate.


He was not to be vengeful or too soft in peace I think following the Civil War,

But alas perhaps, he got assassinated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Johnson


Self control, and able to let go of petty slights.

In Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years & the War Years, Carl Sandburg wrote that when things got too much for Lincoln,“He could write an angry letter, with hard names and hot epithets—and then throw it in the stove. He advised it was a help sometimes to write a hot letter and then burn it.”

https://pcg.church/articles/6219/not-signed-not-sent#:~:text=In%20Abraham%20Lincoln%3A%20The%20Prairie,letter%20and%20then%20burn%20it.”


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#6 •••
@Ultracrepidarian

I think a lot of being a "great" leader is being a decent leader in the right place at the right time. And I think Lincoln was pretty decent. With the benefit of hindsight, being against slavery was obviously the right call and the war was winnable for the North, but at the time it was a bold move to be strongly against slavery and be willing to listen to someone like Douglass. Plus, he had to convince the North that the war was winnable while also taking measures to prevent another civil war. If you look at the presidents before and after, Lincoln's competence stands out. It can be really hard not to make huge mistakes, so a lot of what make a good leader "good" is the bad things that could have happened under another leader but didn't happen under them. But you don't see that directly.


Why do people view Lincoln as so magnificent? Is there something I'm missing?

Well, which presidents do you think are better? Because a lot of the things that might make Lincoln overrated apply to other "great" presidents too. It's all relative.

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#7 •••

Dubya was the best President ever, for he filled us with joy and laughter.


Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better. LOL

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#8 •••

You all have shifted my opinion, Lincoln does deserve more admiration than I was giving him. Though I still think he is overrated as a leader, but in his position it's impossible not to be. People seem to view him as some sort of presidential god.

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#9 •••

Those who win the wars write the history books.

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#10 •••
@sadolite

Let’s not rewrite American history. Lincoln was a great president. Trump is the worst.

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#11 •••
@Debby

Wow, you are not Debby Downer.

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#12 •••
@Leaning

Damn man, you really know your stuff.


Are you Lincoln's biographer or what?

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#13 •••
@Debby
Let’s not rewrite American history. Lincoln was a great president. Trump is the worst.

Bingo, you nailed it.

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#14 •••
@Sidewalker, @Ultracrepidarian

I find Lincoln a fun president to read about.


A leader who a great struggle seems to start and end with, get's tied 'to that struggle I'd imagine.

And the Civil War was and 'is huge in people's minds.

It's almost poetry and myth, a piece of heroic fiction, to accomplish a great task and then die.


'Lot of anecdotes about Lincoln.

With the war over, people had the time.

With his death, they had 'such 'reason 'to.


"Now he belongs to the ages"

-Secretary of War Edwin Stanton


Still, might be even without dying 'right then and there, I think he'd still be a wildly popular President in history.

Without the War and without Emancipation, maybe not as much.

Maybe he'd have a better or worse history with Native America, I'd like to hope better.

Maybe his team of rivals would not worked out as well without the external enemy of the South,

Maybe without the war, he'd not have given as much of an open mind to Fredrick Douglass and other African Americans. And his work towards freedom and what after would be limited, disappointing.

Ah theoreticals.

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#15 •••
@Sidewalker

Abraham Lincoln is widely considered the greatest U.S. president for his wartime leadership in preserving the Union during the Civil War and abolishing slavery. His ability to navigate the nation's greatest crisis, combined with his moral vision for liberty and equality and powerful oratory, has solidified his top ranking in both scholarly and popular assessments of American presidents. 





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#16 •••
@Debby
Abraham Lincoln is widely considered the greatest U.S. president for his wartime leadership in preserving the Union during the Civil War and abolishing slavery. His ability to navigate the nation's greatest crisis, combined with his moral vision for liberty and equality and powerful oratory, has solidified his top ranking in both scholarly and popular assessments of American presidents. 


So, let me get this straight.


Lincoln led the country against an insurrection. and Trump led an insurrection against the country?


Is that about it?





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#17 •••
@Sidewalker

What Trump did was treasonous.

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#18 •••

Well, Trump wants to be known for taking away women's right to vote.

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#19 •••
@Debby

Let’s not rewrite American history. Lincoln was a great president. Trump is the worst.


Oh the irony. LOL

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#20 •••
@sadolite

What irony. It’s all part of history now. Trump has 34 felony counts and was impeached twice with more to follow.

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#21 •••

Trump has 3 more years for his detractors to start another civil war.

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#22 •••

Is America ready for another civil war? Every civil rights protest have been crushed by Trump.

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