Is Profit Theft?

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#1 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข

Some people would say that it is, but there are a number of things that make me find this belief a bit unlikely. I generally support right of contract, which I think gets lost a lot in this discussion due to the existence of exploitative contracts, but I don't think exceptions disprove the rule. I'm willing to concede contracts as theft in the cases of deception or force, but other than that I'll defend right of contract.


Child labor falls under deception if the kids are too young to grasp the implications of the contract. So does taking advantage of insane people or paying someone to cut their arm off, since anyone who agrees to that is probably insane. Force includes blackmail or threatening to violate other rights/harm people if they don't sign the contract. Refusing to give someone something you owe them or access to a common resource unless they sign a contract is a rights violation, but the rights violation is failure to pay a debt or stealing a common resource, which is separate from the contract itself. I think some people would argue employment is deceptive since the employees don't realize it's a bad deal, but given that it's usually a better deal than unemployment, I don't think this is usually true.


So that leaves every other contract, and non-deceptive, non-forceful contracts are enough for a lot of people to generate a lot of profit.


The criticism here seems a bit inconsistent, or at least like the people saying profit is theft aren't remembering the criticism they're actually making. No one to my knowledge is arguing that employers are actually making employees worse off compared to not employing them, just that they aren't helping them as much as they could. If your choices are a low wage or starvation, then giving you the low wage is a better deal than starving, so it is providing something that you value. The employer is offering the employee a choice between a low wage and starvation, but isn't everyone else just offering the employee solely the choice of starvation by not offering them a job at all? At least the employer is doing something that benefits the employee, even if for selfish reasons. And it could be said that everyone else is failing to help for similar selfish reasons, yet they aren't stealing by failing to help.


If a charity set up a food bank in a poor place and people had to walk a long way to get to the food bank, the charity is offering people a choice between starvation and hard labor, but we don't say the charity is violating people's rights. The difference is that the employer benefits, but what if the charity benefits through good PR leading to better opportunities for the founders? And what if the employer didn't benefit? If an employer hired someone and then shoveled all of their own surplus value into a fireplace, that seems pretty wasteful, but now they seem indistinguishable from the charity. So if anything, employment seems as justified as charity is, just less wasteful.


I think the distinction between coercion and employment is whether you're adding options or taking them away. You can make offering anything sound bad if it's "a choice between having only x and previous bad situation" even if x is a handout with no strings attached. If I offered someone $5 a day for doing nothing, you could say I'm forcing them to choose between poverty and starvation, even though all I did was do them a favor. So since arguing along those lines seems fraught, I'd say removing options through force can be theft but offering new options isn't theft unless deception is involved. Not to mention that different people could be in different situations. If I offer Bob and Ann each $20 to do a task, and Bob is in danger of starving without the job, am I stealing from Bob and not Ann? Even though I'm making the same offer to both? If contracts are theft because of alternatives, it seems like an employer would be robbing someone by not learning about their personal situation, even if they have nothing to do with said personal situation.


If two people want to team up to do something, I'm not sure we can say the surplus value belongs to anyone unless we agree on a contract. Even if one person is doing the physical labor, surely they need consent to use the planning/design from the other person, and that kind of necessitates some agreement beforehand. Complex ideas and management may be intangible contributions, but ownership is an intangible concept in the first place, so why couldn't something intangible belong to someone? It comes from the brain, which seems like it's even more representative of "you" than the body you use to perform labor. So some contribution to a company via planning seems like a claim on some amount of the profits, and without a contract it seems very unintuitive to say physical labor, or some specific laborers, have 100% of a claim on the profits. The contract isn't really redistributing ownership, there's just no specified claim on ownership without the contract.


I also find it hard to believe employers are offering zero value if different companies perform vastly differently. If one company goes bankrupt, does it mean they got all the lazy employees? Seems a lot like a management failure, which implies the management at the other companies are doing something right.

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#2 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข

Since when is profit theft?!

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#3 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant
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#4 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne
Since when is profit theft?!

I don't think it is, but it's a pretty common socialist viewpoint. Not sure there are any socialists on this forum, though, so there might not have been a point posting this here.

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#5 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SatanLucy


SatanLucy wrote:
If there is no profit, no one will invest or give person a job.


Are we excluding government jobs....postal service, police, military, fire, etc?

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#6 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant

Socialism is a philosophical concept usually banded about by people with the time and money to do so...Which is a sort of contradiction is it not...Karl Marx was one such person.

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#7 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant


Savant wrote:
Since when is profit theft?!
I don't think it is, but it's a pretty common socialist viewpoint. Not sure there are any socialists on this forum, though, so there might not have been a point posting this here.


I think there is a point when profit becomes theft. For instance, when a company's employees need to rely on public assistance to survive. When profit has a higher priority than the people that make it possible, it becomes theft. Eg. Amazon, Mcdonalds, Wal-Mart.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#8 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne

Why do those things make it theft? It seems contradictory to me that paying someone a low wage could be worse than not paying them at all. If those people were just...unemployed, then they'd be worse off and using more public assistance, so the employment contract is in their interest and the interest of the taxpayers. I'm not sure why offering an employment contract suddenly introduces additional obligations for the employer beyond those described in the contract.


Does helping someone a little bit introduce the obligation to help them more? If you give a homeless guy $5, but he still needs public assistance to survive, did you harm him? The difference is that you don't benefit from offering free money while the company benefits from profit, but now we're back to a scenario where an employer throwing surplus value into a woodchipper somehow seems more benevolent than if they hadn't wasted it (since destroying it prevents them from benefiting).


Again, the value critique seems predicated on the contract itself being immoral, since if right of contract exists then it's fine to benefit from surplus value, as long as the laborer signed a contract. For it to be theft you have to either ignore the contract or argue why it's invalid.

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#9 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne
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#10 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant
Why do those things make it theft? It seems contradictory to me that paying someone a low wage could be worse than not paying them at all.


I do not accept employment is some type of charity situation. Employment is a mutually beneficial arrangement. The employee gets a wage that allows them to live at the current cost of living, and the employer gets profit. Wages arent supposed to be hourly plus government assistance. That is an employer increasing their bottom line by having taxpayers cover the employee's shortfall. It is shorting the employee and stealing from the public coffers to maximize profit. What's worse is that some of these corporation pay little or no federal tax. As a small business owner who pays taxes, thats bass ackwards on multiple fronts.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#11 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne
Employment is a mutually beneficial arrangement.

So, not theft. The point of the woodchipper/fireplace analogy is that just because a situation is mutually beneficial as opposed to totally charitable, does not make it theft, since it's benefiting the employee, not harming them. It could be theft if the contract was nonconsensual, but as you said, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.


It is shorting the employee and stealing from the public coffers to maximize profit.

It's the government taxing people to pay the employee, so if anything the government are the ones stealing? (I think taxation is justified, but it's weird to blame the company for a law they didn't create.) And if the company wasn't hiring the employee at all, the employee could be receiving unemployment, so they could be reducing the total tax burden.


Not sure where this logic ends either. If the government subsidizes a company and they pass some portion of these savings onto the consumer, am I personally robbing taxpayers by buying from the company and benefiting from the subsidy? That's kind of what companies hiring employees are doing when the employees receive government assistance, ignoring that they'd still be receiving assistance in a counterfactual world.

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#12 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
So, not theft. The point of the woodchipper/fireplace analogy is that just because a situation is mutually beneficial as opposed to totally charitable, does not make it theft, since it's benefiting the employee, not harming them. It could be theft if the contract was nonconsensual, but as you said, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.


Context. As I said in the sentence immediately following the one you segregated:



It's the government taxing people to pay the employee, so if anything the government are the ones stealing?


Are you being intentionally obtuse? The problem isn't taxation, but that taxpayer funds are being used to (effectively) increase profits for a private company - an entity that may or may not pay taxes. As I see it, this is very clearly a manipulation of the system. Does it rise to the level of 'theft'? Yes, I think it does at least in essence.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#13 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne
Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Not intentionally, no. But if I'm wrong, I'm open to being corrected.

The problem isn't taxation, but that taxpayer funds are being used to (effectively) increase profits for a private company - an entity that may or may not pay taxes. As I see it, this is very clearly a manipulation of the system.

This isn't some strategic workaround, it's companies negotiating for the best labor price they can get as they've always done. Presumably the government takes that into account when they design public assistance; how could they not? For whatever reason, the government organized things this way.


And as I said, the companies are likely reducing the burden on taxpayers by employing people rather than doing nothing. If I pay a dude five dollars and the government gives him five dollars, did I steal five dollars from taxpayers? If the answer is no, then it seems to me irrelevant whether the money I gave him was in exchange for something.

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#14 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant
it's companies negotiating for the best labor price they can get as they've always done.


The 'negotiation' is between the employer and the employee - not the employer, the employee, and taxpayers.


And as I said, the companies are likely reducing the burden on taxpayers by employing people rather than doing nothing.


If the goal is truly reducing the burden on taxpayers, then perhaps corporations shouldn't be able to avoid paying taxes. Amazon paid an effective tax rate of 1.4% for their 77.7 billion profit in 2025. For perspective, the lowest rate an individual can pay for federal income tax is 10%. These individuals make less than $12,000 a year. Amazon is heavily involved in tax code lobbying. Some of that profit goes to overpowering individual voters and effecting tax code to their advantage.


The Government Accountability Office analyzed the data from 15 state agencies across 11 states and found 12,350 Amazon employees were enrolled in SNAP, and 11350 were covered by medicaid. In the states listed in the report, Amazon employs 273,600 employees. Assuming overlap between these two groups, roughly 5% of Amazon employees are in public assistance. 5% of amazon employees in the US is ~55000. Between the two programs, the government provides roughly $13000 per year per individual. Using these rough numbers, the US government spends ~715 million to subsidize Amazon.


So, Amazon pays an small amount (respectively to their profit) for taxes, and half of that might be going to take care of their employees. Is this theft? Maybe not. Is it right? No.




https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-26-108703


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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#15 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข

That phrase "profit is a theft" only can come from a fkn leftist.


Every business has a budget, so the profit is the difference between the income and the cost, before taxes. If owners want a big profit, they have two possibilities, increase the product/service's price or reduce costs. The former is ruled out at once because the competition is very hard out there, so owners prefer to reduce costs, either in the supply or the labour. They usually choose to reduce labour costs because changing the supplies for a product or service can be critical for the QoS of any business.


So, if people see that the salaries are going down is just because there is a fierce competition going on in the market among businesses. If a business see that another business reduces the prices of their products because they are replacing their labour with a lot of illegal inmigrants that Joe Biden let in, then they have to follow suite, they are not idiots.


Fkn leftists usually think profit is a theft because they don't understand how the market works, let alone the economy. People start a business because they usually expect to have a better return on investment than what they would get in a bank. If it weren't like this, people would never put a fkn penny to any business and the country would collapse due to a lack of entrepreneurship. That's what the profit is for, to encourage people to start a business because there is a high reward if they succeed. That's why in a communist country people don't start businesses, because there is no reward at all, so people either flee to another country or stay to lie on a couch scratching their balls all day long.


But don't think only entrepreneurs can have a reward for what they're doing, that also works for employees. Start a business is fkn risky and difficult, you can end up working like a slave at the beginning to make your business take off, that's what the profit is for as I said. So, as owners know that profit can make you move your ass to do difficult things, they usually reward the valuable employees so they can give it all for the business. This reward can come as sale commissions, bonus, etc, but all depends on how valuable the employee is for the business, which means how much money the employee can produce for the business. If the employee is not valuable at all, his salary will depend on the supply and the demand for labour as any product/service in the market.

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#16 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne
The 'negotiation' is between the employer and the employee - not the employer, the employee, and taxpayers.

I'm just saying it's not a loophole, it's something the government would obviously consider when writing the law.

perhaps corporations shouldn't be able to avoid paying taxes.
Is this theft? Maybe not. Is it right? No.

Not defending tax avoidance but that's straying a bit from profit being theft. Fair points though.

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#17 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant
I'm just saying it's not a loophole, it's something the government would obviously consider when writing the law.

I disagree. Providing necessities to those in need would obviously be considered. Anticipating corporations would have taxpayers subsidize 5% of their payroll is not something that would obviously be considered.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#18 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@SkepticalOne

So when the government decides to give benefits to people who are employed, they don't realize that is subsidizing the payroll? Do they think the company is going to pay above the market rate for some reason? Companies pay the lowest price they can for the labor they want, if the government gives handouts to their employees I'm not sure why they'd expect the company to stop negotiating for the best price they can get. Someone making less than $66,000 with a large family might still be getting govt assistance, some jobs obviously pay less than that. So a part-time employer might have to start paying significantly more for the same labor just to avoid the govt "subsidizing" their wages...and why would they do that when the government is specifically choosing to do so?

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#19 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@Savant

Again, the contract is between the employer and the employee, not taxpayers. I get that corporations *can* take advantage of a third party, that doesn't make it right. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. ๐Ÿ™‚

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#20 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข

Sorry, I'm a little late to this forum but I've been reading The Communist Manifesto, and it appears to me that Marx, does not necessarily believe that profit is theft, but a large discrepancy between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat profit is the real class theft.

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#21 โ€ขโ€ขโ€ข
@CSDebate27

Profit is not theft if the means used to profit are justified

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