the most straight forward way of looking at the way humans operate, is that they are free agents. free will is a loaded term, but the essence that matters is that they are not just reacting by cause and effect. i mean that's just common sense way of looking at it. i know atheists have that stupid idea that humans are nothing more than elaborate flesh robots, but they lack common sense to begin with, so no surprise there.

Only a small percentage exercise free will.The majority are led by determination.

ay, there's the rub.

I'll buy that. Free will must be acted upon, otherwise, it's just a parade.

Kind of feels like both to me, I'm 'part of everything.

. . . Predictive models can get pretty good at predicting responses I'd imagine.

Even regular people, can have decent predictive models of other people.

. . . With tech, maybe even better, EEG monitor on a person's head since birth.

. . .

“Zeno, they say, was whipping a slave for stealing. When the latter said, ‘It was decreed by fate for me to steal’, Zeno replied, “And to be beaten’.”

https://www.eoht.info/page/Slave%20stealing%20parable

Mencius said, "The woods on Ox Mountain were once beautiful! On account of its being on the edge of a large country, it had been attacked with axes and hatchets, and then how could it remain beautiful? The refreshing breezes of day and night, and the moisture provided by rain and fog, did not fail to give rise to sprouts of vegetation. But cows and sheep have been repeatedly pastured there, and for that reason it has remained desolate. People observe its denuded state and assume that it never had any good resources. But how could this state be the true nature of this mountain?" — Mencius, 6A:8

Mencius argued that "bad" human natures were produced just as the bad condition of Ox Mountain had been produced, so the answer to "bad" humans was to protect and nurture them from birth. He also thought that punishment does not do much good. It does not cure the root of the problem.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_Mountain

Marcus Aurelius said

"For at what do you fret? At the wickedness of mankind. Recollect the maxim that all reasoning beings are created for one another, that to bear with them is a part of justice, and that they cannot help their sin."

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55317/55317-h/55317-h.htm

Yet, we often have the power 'to change, if we will but think of possibility and 'effort upon such.

I lean towards the world and ourselves 'both being driving forces.

Free will without direction is just as aimless as determination.

I don't believe in free will

Deciding to become a witch is free will.

Nope.

Yes, the concept of free will is fundamental to modern witchcraft, especially for Wiccans who follow the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will". This principle emphasizes personal freedom to act while also requiring the practitioner to be responsible for the consequences of their choices. The idea that actions have consequences is also reflected in the Rule of Three, which states that energy sent out into the world returns to the sender. 

Witchcraft is a practice completely separate from Wicca. My feelings on free will are related to my deities and my religion, not to my witchcraft. Please quit telling me what my religious and spiritual beliefs are.

Almost every argument against Free Will presupposes determinism without establishing determinism as a fact. Determinism is not a conclusion of science, on the contrary, science has established that reality is not deterministic. The philosophical doctrine of determinism is nothing more than an archaic and failed concept that is unscientific and completely faith based.

The attempt to deny the self-evident experiential reality of human consciousness and the associated fact that we are morally responsible causal agents is a very extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the unfounded and completely faith-based belief in determinism doesn’t constitute extraordinary evidence by any stretch of the imagination.

The strongest argument for the existence of free will is that we all observe it during every conscious moment, it is a fundamental and significant part of our experiential reality at all times, hence it is self-evident. Consequently, the denial of free will is necessarily a rejection of the very concept of empirical evidence, and the argument against Free Will becomes a rejection without “proof”, which eliminates induction as valid. These two aspects of the approach clearly reject the very basis of science and scientific knowledge, leaving nothing but detached abstractions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the real world.

Philosophy is concerned with saying something which is true or significant, science with doing something which is effective. Science is about the real world, grounded in perceiving and doing, the argument against Free Will is completely abstract and invalidates both perception and doing, it is a complete rejection of science as valid, and philosophically it amounts to a rejection of the very basis of truth and significance.

In the end, there is no valid basis upon which the rejection of Free Will can be said to be true of reality.

Great argument. U make a lot of great arguments that r sophisticated yet common sensical

Something always precedes the next thing.

Generally regarded as cause and effect.

So to become a witch one would have acquired relevant data beforehand.

No puffs of smoke and instant witch.

Which all goes to prove that everything is impossible.

Is that a contradiction?

Freedom and free will are not the same thing. We cannot do everything that we want. There are all kinds of restrictions on what we can and can't do. We are unable to control forces outside of ourselves. There is no free will.

The statement "Only a fool says there is no freewill" is a reference to the biblical concept of a "fool" as defined in Psalm 14:1, which says, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'". While the exact wording isn't about free will, some interpretations suggest that a person who denies God may also deny the ethical and moral framework that underpins free will, thereby acting foolishly. 

I don't care what the Bible says.Thanks.

Freedom and free will are not the same thing.

Of course not, a lot of people try to define free will away, which is not a valid argument. This isn’t one of those “I can’t choose to fly, therefore my will is not free” things, is it? That kind of semantic game has nothing to do with the actual free will debate.

We cannot do everything that we want. There are all kinds of restrictions on what we can and can't do.

Are you saying that when you make a decision, you did not have the freedom to choose otherwise, that consciously, you are a passive observer rather than a causal agent?

We are unable to control forces outside of ourselves. There is no free will.

I think it is reasonable to define free will broadly as the belief that the future is not beyond our control.

If so, then the free will debate is about whether we have the cognitive ability to conceive of future courses of action, deliberate about various reasons for choosing among them, determine our actions on the basis of such deliberation, and control our actions despite the presence of competing desires. If we can exercise these cognitive abilities to act without our actions being unreasonably compromised by external pressure, then we possess free will and it follows that human beings are morally responsible causal agents that can change our conduct for reasons that are not included in the purely physical causation which by definition, does not include intent, values and purpose.

It’s a conscious state with reference to a future possibility that causes human decisions in order to bring about further states for the sake of values and purposes, and intents. Consciousness has causal influence due to its content, which usually involves a desire or intention and includes the ability to envision a future state and establish a strategy for attaining that state. A conscious state with reference to a future possibility, along with intents, values, and purposes are not reducible to the purely physical deterministic state.

When you say you don’t believe in free will, are you saying that you are not a causal agent, and therefore you are not responsible for your actions?

I don't care what the Bible says.Thanks.

Does that bear on your belief that we do not have free will?

A lot of people can't seem to distinguish between free will and theism, I find that strange because I don't see why so many people, both Christians and atheists alike, equate believing in free will with believing in God.

Do you reject the existence of free will because you see it as a Christian concept?

The fact that we can change natural habits demonstrates that we can redirect our natural fate.

Nature is as nature does.

So we can change the way we do things if inspired to do so.

And fate will be be whatever it becomes.

I just went over to debateart and copied a paragraph I wrote a long time ago about free will because I didn't feel like trying to rewrite it.

Free Will is contradictory to an omniscient God and it's contradictory to life in general whether an omniscient God exists. Freedom is one thing. Free Will is another entirely. If we had free will then we could make whatever choices we want and follow through on them. We can't for all sorts of reasons money, attitude, upbringing, place of birth, type of government in our country. There's a reason psychology exist because people are predictable animals. We rarely if ever change and we rarely if ever step outside our comfort zone. You're freedom lets you to make choices in regards to what you eat, who you marry, if you have kids, in some way where you live and what you do. Free will to make any choice you want to, at any time, no matter what, does not exist. We are slaves to nature and nurture

I just went over to debateart and copied a paragraph I wrote a long time ago about free will because I didn't feel like trying to rewrite it.

Cool, I didn't know we could still do that, thought Debate Art was gone, thanks.

Free Will is contradictory to an omniscient God and it's contradictory to life in general whether an omniscient God exists. Freedom is one thing. Free Will is another entirely. If we had free will then we could make whatever choices we want and follow through on them. We can't for all sorts of reasons money, attitude, upbringing, place of birth, type of government in our country. There's a reason psychology exist because people are predictable animals. We rarely if ever change and we rarely if ever step outside our comfort zone. You're freedom lets you to make choices in regards to what you eat, who you marry, if you have kids, in some way where you live and what you do. Free will to make any choice you want to, at any time, no matter what, does not exist. We are slaves to nature and nurture

Not sure, but it sounds like we define it differently.

The Bible clearly teaches both free will and predestination, presenting a complex yet harmonious view of God's interaction with humanity. While we have the freedom to make choices, God's sovereign will and predestining work ensure that His ultimate purposes are fulfilled

I often think that's why people and I disagree in my definition of free will is very different. I honestly don't believe anybody can do anything they want to at any time.

I often think that's why people and I disagree in my definition of free will is very different. I honestly don't believe anybody can do anything they want to at any time.

Do you believe you aren't responsible for your actions?

Every human civilization in all times and places humans have been found to exist, has/had a legal and/or moral system that presumes/presumed we are responsible for the decisions we make; the presumption is that we should be held accountable for the choices we make.

Are you saying that all of the legal and moral systems of every civilization that has ever existed, were/are not valid?

Of course, we're responsible for our actions. I was specifically drawn to the criminal justice system and got my degree in that, because I was interested in making sure people got what they deserved. You are responsible for your choices, but you just can't make any choice that you want to. This idea, anybody can do anything, anytime, anywhere they decide they want to is a lie.

People don't exercise free will because of factors like biological determinism, environmental and childhood conditioning, and the influence of subconscious patterns. The idea that their choices are pre-determined, either by genetics, prior events, or even the functioning of their brains, can diminish their belief in free will itself, leading to less effort to make different choices. Additionally, things like stress, sleep deprivation, and social pressures can further limit conscious control over actions, making it seem like they are slaves to their inclinations. 

What is free will?