Social Taboos and the Wisdom of Crowds

Started by Savant

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#1 •••
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#2 •••

Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

The statement "never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups" is a paraphrased version of a quote by comedian George Carlin, highlighting the phenomenon of collective stupidity where group dynamics lead to poor decisions, even by intelligent individuals. This can occur due to a lack of critical thinking, the silencing of dissenting voices, and the amplification of irrational or poorly thought-out ideas within a crowd. 





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#3 •••
@Savant

Being gay was illegal for a long time. Popular masses are only capable of seeing the present. They dont know the past, nor the future!

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#4 •••
@Savant

I'd imagine the first argument people think of against child pornography is they see it as an evil act, depiction or real person.

And that experiencing it vicariously is an evil shameful behavior.

. . . Used to be more censorship on violence, gore, torture, nudity, sex, in America I think.

. . . I suppose CP is maybe more niche than the other categories, or perhaps simply seen as more evil/sick/perversion.

Regular TV after all maybe less explicit even in depictions.

. . . Then again, some horror movies awful explicit with the gore and torture.


. . . I'd 'assume that privacy and right to dignity, is reason News outlets ideally don't show executions by terrorists lopping people's heads off, or why there was some outrage about people spreading video of Charlie Kirks death.

. . . Not that News Outlets would show 'depictions of fictional events either.

. . .


I 'do think crowd is useful for measurement, gauging of a situation.

Though as a rule of thumb.


Crowds 'can be wrong, or manipulated.

Plenty of mobs in history killing or destroying unfairly,

Panicking over nothing.

. . . Though there is difference between short term and long term crowds, I suppose.

Though even short term crowds can be useful, sometimes the Dam 'has broke.


Even in the long of it though,

People can be fond of norms, controlled by institutions, or environmentally pushed to wrong conclusions.

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#5 •••
@Leaning, @SatanLucy
Being gay was illegal for a long time.

Well, it used to be very socially taboo to support gay marriage. Still is in some places, and in others, it's very socially taboo to be against it. I'd like to think we're smarter than societies that lock up gay people, but people seem incapable of identifying why crowds come to incorrect conclusions. If your position is obvious, then you should be able to convince people in an open forum. If somehow you are wrong, you'll be more likely to be corrected in an open forum. Either way, support the open forum. People's fear, usually, is that the other side will gain influence and censor them, so they have to preempt that. But when they do, it just serves as a justification for censorship when the other side is in power.


Crowds 'can be wrong, or manipulated.

I agree, and I think social taboos against fringe opinions are a big cause of this. If everyone was coming to an opinion independently rather than going along with the crowd, the average would be a lot more reliable. I'd suggest that people hold (a) an opinion based on what they would decide themselves, without input from the crowd, and we average that. Then people hold opinion (b) which is an updated opinion based on what everyone else has said. But (b) is only an improvement over (a) if someone is arguing the unpopular side.

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#6 •••
@Leaning
Deontological, and Consequences you 'want and care for,

Less mattering the 'likelihood of success.

Well, morality based on your own preferences is just egoism. While I'd agree crowds are worse at philosophy, individuals are worse at it too. You probably borrow a good chunk of foundational philosophy from "common sense," otherwise we'd all still be arguing on if reality exists.

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#7 •••
@Debby
The statement "never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups" is a paraphrased version of a quote by comedian George Carlin, highlighting the phenomenon of collective stupidity where group dynamics lead to poor decisions, even by intelligent individuals

I don't think the crowd makes people dumber. Most people just aren't qualified to make good large-scale decisions on things like how to fix the economy. That's why representative democracy is the best system we've come up with.

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#8 •••
@Savant

I am fond of Egoism and also define myself as a Nihilist.

. . . Course I am not wholly either of those. In a sense.

Not 'so selfish, not 'so nihilist that I fall as puppet with strings cut.


I definitely borrow a good chuck of my foundational philosophy from 'common sense', not practical otherwise.

Have to agree to 'some rules and definitions, otherwise can't play the game of life.

. . .


I don't know what Normative Ethics 'really is,

But I've sometimes mused that such 'is mine and most people's Ethics.

Their norms in Nature and Nurture,

Though admittedly people often want to 'change their norms, They don't 'always want to change them 'so drastically, only a little bit, or only while keeping to norms and traditions they are used to.


I mindfully do not follow my morals and ethics because they are 'right, maybe.

But because they are what I am used to.

People 'easily justify post decision/action/existence, I have heard.


In debates, I often see people of fine ability, able to justify either side.

Good debater, good rhetoric, not the same as good person, I think some Greek once said.

. . . Some people disliked the Sophists I think I have heard.


But I am veering conversation into pointless Nihilism.

. . .


Individuals and crowds, ability to make estimations.

. . . It 'does seem better to me, that per your first post, that crowds 'have some justification that you agree with,

Not have it be an appeal to crowd or authority,

Though it can be difficult to 'avoid such.

Knowledge can be difficult to obtain, see, and understand.


Uneducated person guessing at jellybeans, is worse than mathematician guessing at jellybeans, maybe.

Even if both use laws and theorems,

As 'everyone has laws and theorems maybe, but maybe professional and long term mathematician better at it.


Well, I've got to go for a bit, back in an hour or few.

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#9 •••

Also quick note to self,

Too many cooks, single vision better sometimes,

Weak compromises, half measures, no one happy,

Multiple correct answers sometimes.

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#10 •••
@Savant
If your position is obvious, then you should be able to convince people in an open forum


All I get in an open forum is yelling and insults. So from my conclusion, either I am completely dumb either my opponents are all braindead, and neither option really favors me in any way in a discussion. So I dont really have plans of convincing people into anything. If they will change their minds in future, they will do so anyway irrelevant of if I debate them or not, and if they wont, they wont.

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#11 •••
@SatanLucy
All I get in an open forum is yelling and insults.

DebateCraft is an open forum. People are actually reasonable here.

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#12 •••

I 'do think it makes sense to seek the views of many people,

And that it is good to avoid yes men, who are not actually thinking for themselves, just parroting.


In debates, practical view is often a mixture of two extremes,

Rather than on extreme or the other.

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#13 •••
@SatanLucy

How do you decide when a written narrative is being yelled.


Are you sure that it is not you who makes up such ideas?

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#14 •••
@Leaning

Nihilism and Egoism do appear to be somewhat contradictory states of mind.


Though, I would suggest that being successfully suicidal is as good as nihilism gets.


And that suicide is perhaps the ultimate egoistic achievement.


So maybe not as contradictory as I first thought.


Is this common sense logic?

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#15 •••
@SergeantLynch

Somehow to my mind suicide still implies 'meaning,

Giving 'up all attempts at life, eating, thinking,

To my mind would be the most true embodiment of nihilism in a human.

. . . Though 'even 'that, to my mind seems something 'chosen.

Humans can't 'really 'escape the question of meaning I 'think.

'Some answer, some personal truth or belief 'must be given.


Suicide 'can have Ego driven reasons I think.

I've not actually 'read much Existential or Nihilism philosophy.


I think I'd lean towards Nihilism and Egoism being contradictions,

Egoism at times perhaps an anger against a (seeming) truth one cannot accept.

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#16 •••
@Leaning

Good morning Leaning.


Though perhaps it is not morning where you are.



I would suggest that Nihilism is a philosophical concept for the sake of academic philosophical concepts.


And a non-workable reality, for the reasons you put forwards.



Whereas egoism is a philosophical concept for the sake of academic philosophical concepts, wherein the human condition is overly complicated for the sake of academic grandeur.


Nonetheless, egoism does describe the reality of the self, for the reasons you put forwards.



I would suggest that you do not need to read Existential philosophy, as you exude it naturally.


But perhaps you won't make a career of it.

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#17 •••
@SergeantLynch

Two minutes to miiiiidniiiiight!

Ah wait, missed my chance by a minute, ah well.

Bit after midnight now, here in Oregon as I post this.


I think sometimes think a 'lot of philosophy is overly complex, convaluted, and complicated.

But eh, it's a hobby.

Something to think about, exercise one's brain.

Sometimes useful in perspective and will.

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#18 •••
@Leaning

I think that Philosophy is an inevitability of the human condition, and that some people earn a living from it.


A bit like some people earn a living from gardening.


08.10 here in Windy Wales.


So good morning and good night.

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#19 •••
@SergeantLynch
Are you sure that it is not you who makes up such ideas?


WHEN PERSON WRITES LIKE THIS, IT IS CONSIDERED YELLING!


But yeah, too much hate online to be able to debate anything. I think even free speech doesnt help when one of us is incapable to understand the other.

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#20 •••
@SatanLucy

Hmmm.


Emphasis emphasises.


And YELLING is an internally generated non-sound that one might apply to emphasis.


One could also generate a whisper.



Remote hate is also another internally generated state of mind.


One could easily generate happiness.


Who's going to know, other than you?



I would suggest that one chooses to be yelled at and/or hated for whatever reasons.


And the way to be understood, is to explain.



And talking from experience I would further suggest that angst is to a greater extent empowered by the endocrine system.


An active sexual partner, hard work and physical exercise are all good stress relievers.

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#21 •••
@SergeantLynch

The concept of "wisdom of crowds" primarily applies to 

calm, rational, and independent judgment, not yelling or emotional mob behavior. Yelling in a crowd is more likely to lead to a "madness of crowds" scenario or "groupthink," which undermines the conditions necessary for collective intelligence. 

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#22 •••
@Savant

Madness of the Crowds is a good book if you don't mind UK literature.

Instant resolution of dissonance is a relatively new thing among crowds used to instant digital gratification.

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#23 •••
@Shoresy

Instant digital gratification is 

the desire for immediate satisfaction from digital sources, driven by technology that provides constant, fast rewards. This is seen in behaviors like endlessly scrolling social media for likes, playing games that offer constant rewards, and expecting instant delivery of online purchases. This reliance on instant rewards can diminish patience for long-term goals, erode focus, and negatively impact mental well-being by creating a cycle of seeking more dopamine hits, leading to potential frustration, anxiety, and lower life satisfaction. 

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#24 •••

non sequitur

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#25 •••
@Shoresy

The most direct opposite of a non sequitur is sequitur, which means a logical conclusion. Other opposites include words that describe a logical, relevant, or connected statement, such as consequence, deduction, corollary, or inference


Instant digital gratification is the desire for immediate satisfaction from digital sources, driven by technology that provides constant, fast rewards. This is seen in behaviors like endlessly scrolling social media for likes, playing games that offer constant rewards, and expecting instant delivery of online purchases. This reliance on instant rewards can diminish patience for long-term goals, erode focus, and negatively impact mental well-being by creating a cycle of seeking more dopamine hits, leading to potential frustration, anxiety, and lower life satisfaction. 






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#26 •••

non sequitur

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#27 •••
@Shoresy

Follow the exchange.

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#28 •••

non sequitur

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#29 •••
@Shoresy

A non sequitur is not an excuse itself

, but a term for a statement or conclusion that does not logically follow from the previous argument or conversation. It may be used as a form of evasion or distraction, which in turn could function as an "excuse" for changing the subject or avoiding a direct answer. 

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#30 •••

non sequitur

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