You cant define things into existence? Yes you can! - Godel's incompleteness theorem applied to proof of existence!

Started by SatanLucy

Replies
15
Posts
16
Page
1 / 1

Conversation

#1 •••

Alright, so someone told me that I cant define things into existence. And I thought to myself, yes I can!


First, I tried defining "box of gold" as box full of gold which appears before me any time when I want. No great suprise that box didnt appear even tho by definition it should have!


But then I thought, what does it mean to appear? What does it mean to exist? Maybe the box appeared and I cannot detect it?


So I changed the definition of box of gold to: box full of gold which appears before me any time when I want, and which I can always detect.


No great wonder, box didnt appear this time either.


Or did it?


I remembered Godel's incompleteness theorems, and Godel's completeness theorem, when applied to arguments.


Completeness theorem says that first order logic and definitions are provable within the system. In other words, the only thing which is provable within the system are basic logical laws, such as A=A, and definitions used, and what is able to be proved by definitions and basic logical laws.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic


So per Completeness theorem, definitions when accepted are used for proof, and this proof is valid everywhere, even outside the system. So the math defines things into existence.


However, what is existence? How do we know that we exist?


And this is where Godel's incompleteness theory comes in. Hilbert's program had a goal to create one universal system for whole math. In simple terms, it had two goals: Create a system which can prove itself to be true, and which can prove all the remaining math as well.


However, Godel's incompleteness theory completely destroyed Hilbert's program. Incompleteness theory gave 3 major problems which program could never solve:

  1. System used to prove things true cannot prove itself true
  2. System cannot prove things outside the system
  3. System cannot prove all true claims in the system


Gödel constructed a statement like:

"This statement is not provable in this system."

If it were provable, the system would be inconsistent.

If it is not provable, it's true, but unprovable ⇒ incompleteness.


How does incompleteness apply to proving existence?


System which is used to prove existence would require ability to prove that such system exists, that such system is consistent. But that is impossible to prove within the system. You cannot prove your senses are consistent or that they even correctly determine what exists.


So while completeness theorem does say definitions are used as proof and are true everywhere, the incompleteness theorem makes any other proof of existence impossible.


In other words, not only that you can define things into existence, but proving existence without definitions is impossible, because senses are flawed.


In simple terms, box of gold exists by definitions, and my senses are just flawed!


More about Hilbert's program:



Hilbert proposed that the consistency of more complicated systems, such as real analysis, could be proven in terms of simpler systems. Ultimately, the consistency of all of mathematics could be reduced to basic arithmetic.

Gödel's incompleteness theorems, published in 1931, showed that Hilbert's program was unattainable for key areas of mathematics. In his first theorem, Gödel showed that any consistent system with a computable set of axioms which is capable of expressing arithmetic can never be complete: it is possible to construct a statement that can be shown to be true, but that cannot be derived from the formal rules of the system. In his second theorem, he showed that such a system could not prove its own consistency, so it certainly cannot be used to prove the consistency of anything stronger with certainty. This refuted Hilbert's assumption that a finitistic system could be used to prove the consistency of itself, and therefore could not prove everything else.

Edit comment

#2 •••
"This statement is not provable in this system."


Godel cleverly avoided self-referencing fallacy when making this statement, by the way.


I cant exactly explain it right now, but its sort of like how computers avoid self-referencing.

Edit post

#3 •••
@SatanLucy

Defining things into existence" can mean assigning an internal, mental association to a word or concept, which then exists within minds, but it can also refer to the metaphysical idea that manifestation or the Law of Attraction can cause events to occur in the external world through focused thought and speech. While assigning meaning to words doesn't create physical objects, the latter concept suggests that strong belief and consistent positive self-talk can influence one's mindset and actions, leading to desired outcomes. 

Edit post

#4 •••
Godel cleverly avoided self-referencing fallacy when making this statement, by the way.


On second thought, if he did make a cleverly hidden self-referencing fallacy, then one of his theorems is terribly wrong.

Edit post

#5 •••
@Debby

I agree that for sure, you can define things into existence. Merely thinking about something means it exists in the mind and alters the mind. And existence itself is entirely determined by mind. Non-mind material world cannot determine if things exist.

Edit post

#6 •••
@SatanLucy

Self-referencing is the act of referring to oneself or one's own attributes, experiences, or actions, and it can be a powerful cognitive tool for learning and memory, as well as a source of philosophical paradoxes when applied to language or logic. It's a fundamental human tendency to use oneself as the reference point for understanding the world, but it can also lead to focusing too much on personal perspectives, potentially excluding others' input. 



God put a proper balance to self referencing.

Edit post

#7 •••
@Debby

I was talking about self referencing logical fallacy.


Sort of like "A = A and B".


It is a claim false by law of identity. A cannot contain both A and B, because it would mean A contains more than A.


It is reason why "I always lie" or "this statement is false" are both logically incorrect statements.


Statement can never logically contain itself and more than itself.


Should one of Godel's theorems suffer from such fallacy, it wouldnt deal a great blow, his other theorem of system failing to prove itself still stands.

Edit post

#8 •••
God put a proper balance to self referencing.

LOL

Edit post

#9 •••
@FLRW

When asked God replies “I am.”

Edit post

#10 •••
@SatanLucy


Yep, bearing in mind that everything we observe is either a simulation generated from stored data or a simulation generated from incoming data, then you are in fact correct.


Okay, so we have this notion of an external reality converting into an internal reality, and considering how said external realities evolve over time, then this might substantiate the notion somewhat.


And for sure Godel and Hibert are great names to drop into a philosophical discussion...Just as they would have made a great pair of muppet characters.

Edit post

#11 •••
@Debby

When asked, you might reply "I am" on behalf of your own internal GOD concept.


Whereas I might reply "I am" on behalf of my own internal Super-Banana concept.


Yep, I can see the big yellow guy right now...And it said, I am.


Wow, what a moment.


All hail Super Banana.


I'm going to buy myself a yellow cap.


And perhaps a yellow suit, shirt, and tie for special occasions.


Not forgetting socks and shoes.


And underpants.


Though in The Bananadom of Heaven, proud and commando is the the correct way to worship the Big Yellow One.

Edit post

#12 •••
@SergeantLynch
so we have this notion of an external reality converting into an internal reality


You are correct to say that external reality converts into internal reality. However, internal reality likewise converts into external. So belief affects both internal and external reality.

Edit post

#13 •••
@SatanLucy

Well, I do claim that everything that occurs within a Universe at any given moment is natural and real.


So your assertion would be difficult to refute.


We really need to apply specific definitions when employing the term "reality", especially when discussing subjects such as the above.

Edit post

#14 •••
@SatanLucy

Are you saying external and internal realities are interchangeable? That would put a whole new meaning to Jesus’s message.

Edit post

#15 •••
@Debby
Are you saying external and internal realities are interchangeable?


Mind controls your actions. Your actions affect external reality. So any change in mind, such as prayer, affects both internal and external reality.

Edit post

#16 •••
@SatanLucy
In other words, not only that you can define things into existence, but proving existence without definitions is impossible, because senses are flawed.

I think there's a better way of putting this. The brain makes assumptions or internal models of world and uses our senses to test the accuracy of its predictions. I wouldn't go as far as to say our senses are necessarily flawed.


We also see the world through a set of perspectives dependent on our beliefs, concepts, and knowledge, filtering our perception of the world.


Also, Godel's theorems don't necessarily apply to consciousness because consciousness might not be computational. I'm personally agnostic on the idea.


If consciousness does operate on a formal system, then I think it means there are truths or facts about things (especially math) which we can not know. As it applies to observable existence, I think it kinda weak.

Edit post