We seek absolute truth, via our experiences of relative truths, that, sometimes contain misconceptions, false narratives { intentional or otherwise }, mis-perceptions, etc.
I feel good, altho, I didnt know that I would.
We seek absolute truth, via our experiences of relative truths, that, sometimes contain misconceptions, false narratives { intentional or otherwise }, mis-perceptions, etc.
I feel good, altho, I didnt know that I would.
"The parable of the blind men and an elephant is a story of a group of blind men who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and imagine what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the animal's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the animal based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.[1][2] The parable originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused."
Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia
Did you here the one about the partially sighted elephant who went to the opticians but ended up in the bakery next door and ate all the buns.
AI finds that ..' Every Elephant Has Its Own Name, Study Suggests
An analysis of elephant calls using an artificial intelligence tool suggests that the animals may use and respond to individualized rumbles.'..
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/10/science/elephants-names-rumbles.html
AI finds similar info regarding dolphins having individual sounds --whistles-- for their off-spring. A remmber from some years back a person collecting info on Dolphins/Porposies believe he was hearing individual sounds for the parents calling their off-spring.
Consider this, only humans seek absolute truths via their experience of relative truths. Will the following AI Deep Mind Gemma project communicate with Cetacceans enough to find out if they also seek absolute truths. I dont think Cettaceans seek absolute truths.
Dolphins whistles { Bob, Mary, Tom } , clicks { sub-auditory } and pulsed sounds { ex fighting and other social contexts }.
…' The field deployment will involve a fascinating approach: the system will both create synthetic dolphin sounds and analyze real-time dolphin vocalizations to identify potential “replies,” essentially attempting to establish a rudimentary form of interspecies communication.
This technological advancement represents a convergence of cutting-edge AI research and marine biology, potentially opening new pathways for understanding the sophisticated communication systems used by one of Earth’s most intelligent marine species. '..
https://www.wilddolphinproject.org/our-research/dolphin-communication/
We seek absolute truth, via our experiences of relative truths, that, sometimes contain misconceptions, false narratives { intentional or otherwise }, mis-perceptions, etc.
The function of our cognitive faculties are to relate the individual to its environment, the "truth" of beliefs is a matter of their correspondence to reality, and that's a matter of the reconciliation of inner and outer reality. When we use the word truth, there is a reciprocal, transactional relationship being described.
A correspondence theory of truth calls for representation, and there are many different ways to represent reality, none of which, are absolute. The very nature and use of the word "truth” implies that it is referential to a dynamic; it refers to a relationship between some sort of conception and a reality presumed to be objective. The very nature of the word “dynamic” implies it is subject to change with time, place, and progress.
Since we are unable to step outside of our minds to compare our thoughts with objective reality, perhaps we can never really know whether correspondence between thought and reality is even achievable.
That certainly raises the question as to whether “absolute truth” is even a coherent concept.
I feel good, altho, I didnt know that I would.
There you go, Descartes famous quotes “I think, therefore I am” comes to mind. He said the only thing we can know undeniably and without question, the only absolute truth we can possibly know is that we exist, to think, or to “feel good”, is incontestable evidence of the absolute truth that we exist.
Consider this, only humans seek absolute truths via their experience of relative truths.
That's the thing about absolute truth, truth is by definition, contingent
All we really know directly and in an unmediated form is our subjective experience, which is to say, our sensations, the cause of those sensations can only be known by the manner in which we interact with it, which is to say, subjectively. Immanuel Kant is considered the father of modern philosophy for a reason, and Kant’s major contribution was to explain to us that the mind is constructive, all we can know is phenomena, the underlying realty that is causing these sensations is no more than a presumption of sorts. The only knowing there can be is a “mode” of knowing. We pretty much have to presume that there is something “out there” causing these sensations we have “in here”, in our mind, but we don’t, and can’t, know it directly, we can only know it by the uniquely human manner of sensing and knowing available to us.
Consequently, what is commonly referred to as “objective” reality is nothing more than the presumed cause of our sensations, and it is necessarily conceptual, a theoretical construct that is developed by the mind, within the constraints of the structure of the mind, and utilizing the raw materials that the mind produces by processing our sensations. What we call “objective reality” is a projection “out there”, of the subjective experience we are having “in here”, in our mind. What we end up with, is not reality per se, it is only the kind of reality that our kind of mind produces.
Within the mind, our sensations result in perceptions, which are given form by a process of the mind, and which subsequently, results in concepts, which are further given form by a process of the mind. What we call “objective” reality, is something that results from a chain of inferential reasoning, and it is a uniquely human style of inferential reasoning, inferred from a uniquely human set of sensitivities, with a uniquely human way of processing information.
You pretty much have to conclude that the world we experience is completely defined by the mind experiencing it, and it logically follows that a different kind of mind would experience a different kind of reality, and they would live and move and have their being in a different universe. So the resulting “objective” reality isn’t really all that objective, it is nothing more than a mental construct extrapolated from our uniquely human, and completely subjective, way of experiencing reality. Our five primary senses aren’t exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination, and our process of thinking isn’t necessarily the only way of thinking, an intelligent being with a different set of senses than ours, and with a different manner of reasoning, a different kind of mind so to speak, would necessarily experience a different universe than the one we experience.
How smart can something without hands or thumbs 'be?
I suppose they ‘could develop to be ’really smart, if they don't have the methods humans do, to pass on knowledge.
Such as writing.
Have to develop generational memory.
But I think survival doesn't niacinate such, so they at most get stuck with 'some intelligence at most.
More humans developed, more ‘we needed intelligence, well, until we develop machines to think ’for us.
. . .
I wonder how far a society 'could develop underwater.
Such an alien environment for humans, most of our science focused on land and air.
Less fire underwater, so no metal forging I'd imagine.
Water resistance making even kinetic crafting difficult, even for such as flint spears.
Can't build 'walls 'so easily. Though I can imagine giant nets separating areas from a sea floor to surface and air.
As well as tunnel systems, maybe underwater floating and towable fortress.
Need a different writing system, ink not staying on paper maybe. Maybe use stone and carved runes.
Ocean water everywhere, different from air system of disease.
Maybe could still make poultice, and wrap it around a wound.
Maybe make air chambers underwater, or travel onto land, the way humans travel into space.
. . .
I was thinking about AI earlier today, while I still think it relies too much on other peoples work.
It's true of humans as well, shoulders of giants and all that.
Lot of repetition of what earlier humans have said.
. . A difference though, is we'll often individually 'discover previous discoveries.
Still, put a bunch of babies on an isolated island with no imparted knowledge,
I imagine they'd be pretty primitive, 'if they managed to avoid death.
And they'd be pretty primitive for a 'number of generations, as various technologies had to be discovered and passed on.
Language, Laws, overcoming of maladaptive traditions.
But, humans 'would learn, we're mentally hardwired for higher achievements.
And physically configured for such, long lives and opposable thumbs.
Try to teach other animals 'human thoughts and behaviors, limited results.
The more one's environment pulls them down, less likelihood and reason to advance mentally, I'd figure.
Land 'does offer a lot of opportunity, for technological development.
The only knowing there can be is a “mode” of knowing. We pretty much have to presume that there is something “out there” causing these sensations we have “in here”, in our mind, but we don’t, and can’t, know it directly, we can only know it by the uniquely human manner of sensing and knowing available to us.
I dissagree in so far as, other animals have conscious-ness, for most most have much less access to meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and ego.
So humans and other animals both are very well conscious of pain from falling, or have a object { tree rock } fall on us.
The only differrence is the human has language of conceptual identies that associate with the object { tree or rock } and can communicate that to others via a mobile phone invention by humans, one of which may have gone to the moon, and is now trapped under rock or tree with a working mobile phone to human made hostpital etc…….
That certainly raises the question as to whether “absolute truth” is even a coherent concept.
There can only exist five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe. Aka absolute or cosmic truth or principle.
There exist limits, and humans are able to discover some of these cosmic absolute laws or cosmic absolute principles.
You pretty much have to conclude that the world we experience is completely defined by the mind experiencing it,
Experience of occupied space via animal occupied space nervous system --or those without-- is a perspective or angle-of-viewpoint, from which each animal may respond in various ways, depending on the circumstances and their angle-of-viewpoint thereof.
Woman { X x } > Man { X y } > other animals { cettaceans, chimpanses, elephants, birds etc >>>> }
There exist all female species that pop-out exact clones of themselves. There exist no such species of male species. My conclusion is that female is more complex than male.
Universe 12-around-one equal radius spheres, wherein the central sphere is nucleated pregnancy of the woman { 12 spheres } ready to pop one out of the oven of 12.
In my 13 vertexial graviton-darkEon { aka Minimal Pulse of Universe } there is the 9th vertexial nodal event, that, tho it exists within the space and time toroidal tube as body, it is not nucleated any of the three triangles, that, are nucleated by 3p….6…..12 i.e the internal 9th nodal event is allowed the most degrees of freedom, being it does not have as direct structural triangulations as the other three do.
In this scenario, if played out to some zillions^nth power of gravitons-darkEons in a zillions^nth power of space and time tori, all of these 9th vertexial nodal events, having a greater degree of allow motion, I believe, are the cause of an eternally repeating Big Bang { WOW! } at the most expanded, and closest to equilibrium, entropic heat death of Universe.
Penroses differrent version is called the Conformal Cyclic Cosmology. I dont yet have a catchy phrase for this repeating female-male repeating cyclic moment of Unicerse expanding everywhere at once, as a resultant of the ultra-large set of 9th nodal events, coming out of their near to equilibrious state and begin to bounce into the 6 and 12 and the 3p etc…^v^v^v etc… ^v^v^
In the following minimalist static pattern, we humans do not quantize nor quantify the top line --outer peak of space and time tori--, as Gravity ( ), nor do we quantify the bottom line --inner peak of space and time tori as Dark Energy )(. We only quantize the internal vertexial nodal events, as physical reality that I label as observed time.
.......1..........5p...7p.............11p....13p...............17p..........loops around and not co-joined as 17p/1
-
18/0.................6........................12............................18/0.loops around co-joined as one nodal event 18/0.
...............3p.................9............................15.....................loops around and not co-joined as 15/3p
-
...........2p...4..............8....10..................14.....16................loops around and not co-joined as 16/2p
Here is link to a sort of visual of the three triangles and six trapazoid that are basic static polyhedral shape of the graviton-darkEon { minimal pulse of Universe } https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_bifrustum
Each of the three triangles polygons have nuclear vertexial nodal event not shown in the link graphic
1…2p…4 have nucleus 3p
5p…7p…8 have nucleus 4
10…11p…13p have nucleus 12
That leaves the 9th nodal event off-center, and whereas all of the others come closer to absolute equilibrium { because more directly triangulated } the 9th vertexial nodal event will always have slightly more degrees-of-freedom at entropic heat death of Universe.
If were to count to the next nodal event in higher cyclic frequencies than the above presented, 18/0 space and time torus, the next 9th event, we have to begin with the last triangle of the previous next graviton-darkEon that is number 12 as it becomes the ending of one pulse and acts as initating of the next minimal pulse that is as follows:
……11p..….13p...............17p.......…19p……………23……25……………..29p
-
............…12.........................…18…………………………24……………………..
9.........................….15..................……………21……………………27…………
-
…10..................14.....16.............………….20……22……………26…….28…..
So 18 becomes the next free agent of degrees of motion, however, its location is to the left side of the next mid-girth triangle of graviton-darkEon, where as the 9th nodal event was to the right side of the initial mid-girth triangle.
10…11p…13p and 12
14…16….17p with 15 as nuclear to next triangle
19p..20….22 and 21 nuclear nodal event
Then 27. Aha, this is new discovery by me. After the intiatial 9th nodal event as free agent of most degrees of freedom occurring on right side of mid-girth triangle, and that pattern repeats itself. H,mm so we have two kinds of asymmetry occuring, right the repeating left, and the fact that there exists this off center ergo asymmetry of every 9th vertexial event.
Sorry if Im rambling here, as this first time I followed the sequence in the four line pattern, and see exactly where what will occur. Why this first right side then left side always repeats may have to do with starting with number 1 triangle set. 1..2p..3p nucleus 6. Since the third triangle at other end in this sequence, is both the ending of a pulse and beginning of the next pulse. Yeah, that must be why.
The only knowing there can be is a “mode” of knowing. We pretty much have to presume that there is something “out there” causing these sensations we have “in here”, in our mind, but we don’t, and can’t, know it directly, we can only know it by the uniquely human manner of sensing and knowing available to us.
I dissagree in so far as, other animals have conscious-ness, for most most have much less access to meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and ego.
You aren’t disagreeing, I’m not saying other animals aren’t conscious, I’m just pointing out that the various animals have different ways of knowing, that we know in a uniquely human manner, as does the bat knows in a uniquely bat manner.
So humans and other animals both are very well conscious of pain from falling, or have a object { tree rock } fall on us.
I argue that consciousness is an aspect of all forms of animal life, from single celled to human, in some extremely attenuated way, it feels like something to be a paramecium.
The only differrence is the human has language of conceptual identies that associate with the object { tree or rock } and can communicate that to others via a mobile phone invention by humans, one of which may have gone to the moon, and is now trapped under rock or tree with a working mobile phone to human made hostpital etc…….
There are strong arguments that the tree shows signs of an aspect of consciousness, David Chalmers believes that the rock has some degree of consciousness. A strong argument can be made for panpsychism, the belief that consciousness pervades the universe, in effect, everything is conscious.
That certainly raises the question as to whether “absolute truth” is even a coherent concept.
There can only exist five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe. Aka absolute or cosmic truth or principle.
This is where you lost me, I just don’t understand everything that followed this statement.
Ebuc..> There can only exist five, regular/symmetrical and convex polyhedra of Universe. Aka absolute or cosmic truth or principle.
SW..> This is where you lost me, I just don’t understand everything that followed this statement.
I thought you said something about incoherence of absolute truths. This above was my response and what followed was this
EB..> There exist limits, and humans are able to discover some of these cosmic absolute laws or cosmic absolute principles.
Dictionary ..> .' incoherent 1.(of spoken or written language) expressed in an incomprehensible or confusing way; unclear. '
SD…>
You pretty much have to conclude that the world we experience is completely defined by the mind experiencing it,
EB..> Experience of occupied space via animal occupied space nervous system --or those without-- is a perspective, or angle-of-viewpoint, from which each animal may respond in various ways, depending on the circumstances and their angle-of-viewpoint thereof.
Woman { X x } > Man { X y } > other animals { cettaceans, chimpanses, elephants, birds etc >>>> }
There exist all female species that pop-out exact clones of themselves. There exist no such species of male species. My conclusion is that female is more complex than male.
Cosmic 13..> Universal concept such as as a systemic set of 12-around-one equal radius spheres, wherein the central 13th sphere is nucleated pregnancy of the woman { 12 spheres } ready to pop one out of the oven i.e. the 13th. The 13th nuclear one being the off-spring new born.
Cosmic 13..> The Minimal Pulse of Universe the graviton-darkeon, has 13 vertexial nodal events.
Consciousness { ?} 13..> 13 micro-tublins is most common brain/ nervous system, and, more evidence of their relations to quantum effects at room temperature --see R Penrose/Hammeroff on conscious-ness associated with these 13 microtubles-- emit ultraviolet radiance from tryptophan in process called super-radiance. See Link
Before you start going coo koo with your sentences why dont you explain why your an empiricist?
Woman { X x } > Man { X y } > other animals { cettaceans, chimpanses, elephants, birds etc >>>>
There exist all female species that pop-out exact clones of themselves. There exist no such species of male species. My conclusion is that female is more complex than male.
…..if im incorrect please share logical, common sense critical thinking explanation. None of done that on this thread.
Cosmic 13..> Universal concept such as as a systemic set of 12-around-one equal radius spheres, wherein the central 13th sphere is nucleated pregnancy of the woman { 12 spheres } ready to pop one out of the oven i.e. the 13th. The 13th nuclear one being the off-spring new born.
…Cosmic 13a} Bucky fuller states that, the 12-around-one equal radius spheres is closet we will ever come to knowing God, because the 24 circumferential chords { as vectors } are equal to its 24 radii { radiate out from the nuclear center }.
This is occurs when the Vector Equlibrium is constructed from 4 discs of paper. What he does not consider with the nuclear center of these four discs, is joint tangental valenced/bonding, that he does consider with the any two tangent radii of the discs six radii each. 24 >< 24 balance.
……See link to four disc folder in Synergetics graphic B that I posted above in previous posts also ….
…Cosmic 13..> The Minimal Pulse of Universe the graviton-darkeon, has 13 vertexial nodal events.
…………..13b} In relation to the above mentioned, Fullers inconsideration of the four tangent nuclei, from four discs of folded paper, I have do have four vertexial nodal events found in every Minimal Pulse of Universe { graviton-darkEon }. I posted the 2D graphic for the minimal, 3D, space and time torus, ---a prior posts above in this thread-- showing the 13 nodal events that define the triangular bifrustum polyhedron as such Minimal, Tubular Pulse, with the four ---3p….6….9….12…-- as physical reality within the Pulse.
Consciousness { ?} 13..> 13 micro-tublins is most common brain/ nervous system, and, more evidence of their relations to quantum effects at room temperature --see R Penrose/Hammeroff on conscious-ness associated with these 13 microtubles-- emit ultraviolet radiance from tryptophan in process called super-radiance. See Link
……..13c} here is another seperate PBS link, with similar evidence of quantum level effects in moist, warm enviroment of biologic body, that, for some years scientist claimed was not possible to occur. No it does no point specifically to conscious-ness, only such quantum effects are experimentally discovered. See LINK ..' Was Penrose Right? '…
For those interested in understanding more, then Im here to make available my logical, common sense critical thinking conclusions based on what evidence ive found and the prior mentions pathways of thought to arrive at my conclusions. Here again is the 2D version for the 3D space and time tori. Ive put {{ }} to show where the 13 vertexial nodal events occur, in sequence.
And again, the top line is representative outer peak of positive curvature for 3D space and time toris, as Gravity, which humans do not see direclty via quantization nor quantification and similarly, the bottom line is the peak of negative curvature, as Dark Energy not directly seen, ergo, not quantised nor quantified.
......{{1..........5p...7p.............11p....13p}}...............17p..........loops around and not co-joined as 17p/1
-
18/0.................6........................12............................18/0.loops around co-joined as one nodal event 18/0.
...............3p.................9............................15.....................loops around and not co-joined as 15/3p
-
...........2p...4..............8....10..................14.....16................loops around and not co-joined as 16/2p
I then followed the above pattern out numerically to find where the next 9th agent of most freedom of movement would occur. We begin with last triangle closing off
11p…13p…14 and 12 nucleus, then,
Ahh, 15 appears the free agent, not 18 as I stated previously in this thread. I stated I was rambling on because I was following this out further, and now I see I need to consider this pattern more, as to where each free agent with most degrees of motion will occur. It appears differrent than the initial #9, as the 9th vertexial nodal event.
Sorry for again rambling, as this is new territory for me to consider, beginnig with that last triangle of triangulated bifrustum…11p..13p…14 and 12 nucleus. From below, it appears that it is only two events to the next free agent of motion, #15. Will work on getting what now appears to be a more chaotic-like jumping around of the free agent. Dunno yet for sure. Thanks for any consideration of this issue.
……11p..….13p...............17p.......…19p……………23……25……………..29p
-
............…12.........................…18…………………………24……………………..
9.........................….15..................……………21……………………27…………
-
…10..................14.....16.............………….20……22……………26…….28…..
Remember that a Human's life is a blip in time.
Remember that a Human's life is a blip in time.
A blip, blimp or blooper.
Sorry for again rambling, as this is new territory for me to consider, beginnig with that last triangle of triangulated bifrustum LINK
Correction.. still trying to get this all straight.
10…11p..13p and {12} nucleus. 9th nodal event is first free agent of with most degrees of freedom, when we initiate from numerical 1 in the minimal 18-0 space and time torus.
So the vertical,. vertical { l } lines { in bold } is ending triangle of initial bifrustum, and also beginning of triangle of next bifrustrum { Minimal Pulse of Universe aka graviton-darkEon }, that, is composed of the two end triangles and mid-girth triangle, as well as six trapazoid faces/hedra/opeings.
Im also placing verticals between each set of triangles. I see now, that after the initial 9th vertexial nodal event { the third nuclei in each bifrustum }, it repeats as every third nuclei is the a free agent in the next bifrustum pulse. Ok glad to feel I have that straighten out in my head via the pattern below.
It is only the 9th vertexial event, from some initial starting location we had as 1 in the 18/0 space and time torus minimal set for a space and time torus.
……11p..….13p.|.............…17p |....….-|…19p……………|.23……..25…………..|…..29p
----------------------|-------------------|---------|-----------------------|-----------------------------|---------
.........…{12}.......|..................….|….18...|…………………..|…….{24}……………..|………..
9........................|.…..{15}..........|....……|………….{21}…..|………………..27……|……….
----------------------|-------------------|---------|-----------------------|-----------------------------|----------
…10..................|.14...…..16......|.......…|……...20……..22|……………26…….28.|…………
The editing button is now working tho still problematic
The 9th vertexial event is correct, when starting from number 1 location and going in sequence, however, since the last end triangle of intitial Pulse, is also the beginning of the new Pulse, what we find is, that, then becomes every 5th sequential, vertexial nodal event, that, is also a free agent.
However, we then go back to every 9th nodal events being the next free agent. H,mm so it is back and forth patterning. Sorry for the confusion as I to am figuring this out, once we follow the pulsing action accounting accordingly. Interesting
So 9th > then 5th > then 9th etc, is what Ithink is going to be the regular, irregular pattern.
So every 3rd nuclear events is the free agent, and that regular pattern remains the same.
……11p..….13p.|.............…17p |....….-|…19p……………|.23……..25…………..|…..29p
.........…{12}.......|..................….|….18...|…………………..|…….{24}……………..|………..
9........................|.…..{15}..........|....……|………….{21}…..|………………..27……|……….
…10..................|.14...…..16......|.......…|……...20……..22|……………26…….28.|…………
I find consistency more valuable than truth. Liars constantly lie and those who play by the rules constantly play by the rules. Figuratively speaking. The actions of people and entities pretty much always lead to the truth even when they are lying to you. Truth? Meh I care more about outcome, words are worthless when they don't match outcome. If your feelings aren't being hurt and your beliefs aren't being challenged then the truth is no where around you.
You display the typical negative human attributes in true mathematical form.
Specific comment by me, please.
My previous versions above were incorrect, of the pattern below with my corrected findings regarding my Minimal Pulse of Universe, the gravito-darkEon and is observed also as a triangular bifrustum. This version is more squished than I would like to present, yet its the first time I actually have the polyhedral version of it, however, it does not show the internal four nodal events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_bifrustum
Below I attempt vertical lines to show seperation between each set of triangles, and we can see that the free motion agent is **18**, the and is the next 9th nodal event. If we stick with the overall accounting, --i.e includes last three nodal events definning last the end triangle of previous Pulse--. I think this overall accounting is correct way to go
If were to start our accounting only inside of the next pulse, then, 18 is the 5th nodal event. I think accounting is not inclusive of the prior triangle. However, what is of significance, is this free motion agent 18, is occurring on left side of mid-girth triangle. So it appears to me, as we go along the over torus tube, we will find this free agent alternating between a location on right and left side of mid-girth triangle.
...Note: this overall four line pattern --also a asymmetrical pattern-- is resultant of turning the symmetrical four line pattern inside-out. I did that back in mid-2000's.
................Left End v..Tri.........Mid.v.girth Tri...................v..Right end Triangle 2nd Pulse
..............................v.......................v................................v.........
…..…11p..….13p.>|<...........…17p.|....…....19p..………>|<...23……..25........|…..........29p............31p..|
------------------------>|<------------------|------------------------->|<------------------------|---------------------------------|
...........…{12}......>|<...................….|.….18..……..…………........{24}….……...|...……….......{30}.............|
9........................>|<….{15}.............|....….……....{21}….>|<…........……….......|.27…....……......……........|
---------------->|<--------------------|------------------------->|<-------------------------|----------------------------------|
…..10.................>|<.14...…...16......|.......….20……..22.>|<.………….......26...|…......28..…………............|
.................................................Mid ^ girth..................................................Mid ^ girth..........
Ugg, so hard to get formatting correct with text format
The only Absolute Truth® is that the McRib® is back!
-RealMcDonalds
Use numbers instead.
