Nihilist Korea - I have decided to become truth nihilist - truth and logic dont have any meaning - Praise Cthulhu!

Started by SatanLucy

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#1 •••

After spending quite some time exploring different arguments regarding truth and logic, certain anti-arguments have convinced me that truth and logic simply dont have any actual meaning other than what people randomly give them.


First there is the problem of language definitions.


Word requires a definition. that definition requires more words. Each of those words require more definitions, which require more words, which require more definitions...ect.


this creates unsolvable language definitions problem where all definitions of words can only be circular or undefined, because infinite defining is both useless and impossible.


Undefined definitions are logically useless. Circular definitions are logically useless. For example, saying that "good" is "not bad", and "bad" is "not good", doesnt tell you anything of what "good" or "bad" is. Is a toothbrush bad or good? You cant deduce that from circular definitions.


Because deduction logic in the first place requires established non-circular definitions, but these dont exist. Definitions are always arbitrary, because its impossible to prove a definition by any deductive logic. And definitions are always circular, making any deductive logic which relies on definitions circular as well.



And from problem of definitions, comes problem of truth.


truth can only exist in following deductive argument:


P1. truth = definition of truth

P2. Definition of truth = B

C. truth = B


(B in this case is something we are trying to prove true)


If truth has no proved definition, both P1 and P2 collapse. If definition of truth is arbitrary, then that supports moral nihilism which claims truth is arbitrary, and likewise P1 and P2 collapse by merely changing the definition.



Because the argument for truth faces an unsolvable logical problem: How do you prove that definition of truth is a true definition of truth?


Anyone can come up with any definition, but how do you prove that definition true?


If definition of truth is arbitrary, that supports moral nihilism, and not any position where truth objectively exists.



Some people might say that we get truth from observation. But even if we were to accept observation as definition of truth, the problem comes once we place it in deductive argument:


P1. truth = definition of truth

P2. definition of truth = observation

C. truth = observation


the simple problem with this argument is this: What is "observation"?


Observation itself likewise doesnt have non-circular definition, so the problem is not solved, but extended.


In this particular case, P2 is not only impossible to prove, but it is actually impossible to know what "observation" is, to even begin proving P2., because just like truth, "observation" cannot be defined.



And same problem is faced with word "existence" where existence has no working definition.



And finally, we reach the problem of logic.


Due to Munchausen trilemma, it is logically impossible to prove truth of any claim without facing one of 3 problems:

Infinite reasoning (Each claim requires another claim to prove it true)

Circular reasoning (Claim proves itself true)

Unproved (Claim arbitrarily accepted as true)


All 3 of these support nihilism. Infinite reasoning is impossible, but can also be made arbitrary, by just making up endless reasons for something. Circular reasoning can actually support just about anything, so it is arbitrary as well. And Unproved claim, accepting claim as true arbitrarily, just supports truth nihilism, doesnt disprove it.


Even if we were to accept laws of logic as true, we cannot logically use them to deduce any truth, because deduction requires definitions, and definitions are all circular, making all reasoning essentially circular even when we accept laws of logic.



But laws of logic have their own problem. How do you prove that laws of logic are truth or are used to determine truth?


Because I see claims such as "Laws of logic are used to prove things true", but such claim cannot be logically proved, just arbitrarily accepted.



Finally, argument from contradiction:


P1. Saying that truth doesnt exist is a claim

P2. If truth doesnt exist, the claim "truth doesnt exist" cannot be true

C. Claim "truth doesnt exist" cannot be true.



the problem with this argument is that it is essentially trying to strawman nihilism into a position nihilism doesnt even hold. Nihilism doesnt claim itself to be true. It is claiming that nothing is really true.


So saying that Nihilism cannot be true isnt an argument against nihilism when we realize nihilism doesnt need to be true. It only needs to make everything else not true as well.


However, contradiction exists in truth itself which shows the point nihilism is trying to make:


P1. truth is self-determining or not self-determining

P2. If truth is self-determining, truth is circular

P3. If truth isnt self-determining, something outside of truth determines truth

P4. Outside of truth cannot be true.

C. "truth is circular" is the only claim left which can be true.


And if truth is circular, then we can choose anything we want to be truth, which is exactly the point of nihilism. truth is whatever is accepted as true, it is arbitrary.


So even if truth exists, it exists in arbitrary form, which doesnt disprove but supports truth nihilism.


And definition of truth being arbitrary further supports truth being arbitrary.


If truth is arbitrary, I can choose whatever I want to be true, even contradictive things, so then I can even say Nihilism is both true and not true.


Because law of non-contradiction likewise cannot be proved outside itself or by itself.

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#2 •••
@SatanLucy

Truth has many more shades of lies according to your theory.

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#3 •••
@SatanLucy

Truth is and logic is logical.


One either understands what this means or one doesn't.


I can differentiate between truth is and logical is logical, and bananas are and kumquats aren't bananas.


And I can also differentiate between bananas and kumquats.


All seemingly in a nanosecond of internal data processing.


I don't need to constantly consult dictionaries.


So relative to the human condition, a banana or a banaani is truthfully what it is...And a kumquat or a kumkvatti logically is also.

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#4 •••
@SergeantLynch
I don't need to constantly consult dictionaries.


Dictionary is what you need to know meaning of word. Even internal dictionary which is in your mind which knows meanings of things.

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#5 •••
@SatanLucy

One either knows something or one doesn't.


If one doesn't then a dictionary would be one way of establishing facts...Though one cannot establish a fact unless one is prompted to do so.


To put it another way, everything that is potentially knowable that I don't know, I may never know...Which I guess is quite a lot.

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#6 •••
@SatanLucy

Facts are objective pieces of information that can be verified, while reality encompasses the totality of existence, including subjective experiences and perceptions.

Definitions

  1. Facts: A fact is a statement or piece of information that can be proven true or false through evidence. Facts are objective, meaning they remain true regardless of personal beliefs or opinions. For example, "Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius at sea level" is a fact that can be verified through scientific observation. 
  2. Reality: Reality refers to the state of things as they actually exist, encompassing all phenomena, both known and unknown. It includes not only facts but also subjective experiences, beliefs, and perceptions. Reality is broader and can vary from person to person based on individual interpretations and experiences. 



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#7 •••
@FLRW

the problem with those definitions is that once you see definition of "evidence", you see that evidence is also information. And definition of information is "fact". So it just really goes in circle. Same with reality and existence.

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#8 •••
@SatanLucy

How can it be reality if AI is used to generate it?

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#9 •••
@Debby

I still dont understand why people dont solve AI hallucinations.


I recently argued with chatgpt over "network circularity" being a solution to circular definitions. Even after AI was proved wrong, it still took a couple of responses for AI to realize it. But after AI realized it, it seemed to stop believing in reality.


I hope for an update with AI which makes AI realize things sooner. I dont want to waste time writing 10 responses for AI to realize something.

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#10 •••
@SatanLucy

That is why it will take billions to fix AI . The money has to go to people who approve AI algorithms.

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#11 •••
@SatanLucy

Information might be incorrect or a lie or a deception, therefore it will not be a fact.


Same applies to evidence.

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#12 •••
@SergeantLynch

How will AI know if the input was a lie?

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#13 •••
@Debby

A real independent AI will have to apply logic and work out it's uncertainties.

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#14 •••
@SergeantLynch

To workout its uncertainties on a platform built by humans. That would be impossible even for humans.

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#15 •••
@Debby

True Debs...You find it impossible to work out the uncertainties on a Bible platform built by humans.

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#16 •••
@SergeantLynch

The Bible is not built on AI. It is a divinely inspired book leading to human salvation.

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#17 •••
@Debby

So it was humans that made up the Middle Eastern folk tales and wrote the book, and not a divine alternative intelligence.


I've been telling you that all along and you've finally got it.

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#18 •••
@SergeantLynch

The Bible is a divinely inspired book leading to human salvation. It started in the Middle East, but spread to Europe and the rest of the world asa universal religion.

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#19 •••
@Debby

The Bible is a book of Middle Eastern mythological tales, that were adopted as the basis of evolving theo-political empires...Data transfer and child brainwashing ensures their perpetuation...Divinity was and still is a naive conceptual assumption...Such is the fallibility of the organic computer.

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#20 •••
@SergeantLynch

Ignorance of the Bible is not an excuse. You will be judged for your deliberate ignorance of the Bible.

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