There shouldn't be any age restrictions for smoking cigarettes (Warning: Contains philosophy)

Started by SatanLucy

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#1 •••

Age restriction for smoking means person under certain age isnt allowed to smoke cigarettes.


When it comes to "should/shouldn't" questions, debaters are expected to not merely suggest a standard, but also justify it with deductive logic.


Burden of proof is shared.



So umm yeah, as description says, debaters must use deductive reasoning to justify their standard. thus, no subjective morality is allowed to begin with.


So reasoning must be in form of:


A = B


B = C


C = A


With of course starting premise also being logically deduced.


Due to is-ought gap, using observations to derive "should" is not possible, because observations merely tell what is, not what should be.


However, using logical axiom as starting premise works as foundation to derive morality from, and the only way to deny logical axiom is to deny logic itself.


thus, my reasoning will be in form of:


A or not A


Not A, when accepted as true, results in self-defeat and establishment of A.


thus, only A remains as true.



I. Body autonomy objective morality


When it comes to what "should" be done, some moral principles survive A or not A much better.


Some examples of moral principles are:


Body autonomy


Property rights


Person's wants


Harm


Freedom



We can logically deduce body autonomy by saying:


Everyone has body autonomy = No one can take away body autonomy of another


this principle remains self-consistent, but opposite principle does not:


Any person can take away body autonomy from others for subjective reasons = Everyone can take body autonomy from everyone for any subjective reason, including their ability to take away autonomy from others = Ability to take away autonomy itself disappears as principle.


Suppose someone says:


"I have right to take away body autonomy of others for reasons I choose".


We can respond to that by saying:


"We have right to take away your ability to take away body autonomy of others for reasons we choose".


thus any attempt to take away autonomy results in symmetry justification to prevent that same attempt.


Any person has right to take away choices from others = Any person has right to take away choice to take away choices from others.


thus, any attempt to take away body autonomy for subjective reasons, results in also subjective reasons defeating same principle.



Because topic is about smoking and age restrictions, body autonomy is important argument.


Suppose some person wants to smoke and has money to buy cigarettes. to impose age restrictions which prevent that person, then his wants, choices, autonomy and property choices would all be violated.


And if violating body autonomy is good for subjective reasons, it results in justification to violate all autonomy, including ability to violate autonomy, hence self defeat of "Not A".


Likewise, violating property choices is self-defeating:


Any person can take away property choices from another for arbitrary reason = All choices regarding property can be taken away, including choice to take away choice.


Any person can deny goals of another = Any person can deny goals of all others, including goals to deny goals.


Freedom likewise works same. If freedom can be taken away for subjective reasons, all freedom can be taken away for subjective reasons, including freedom to take away freedom.



II. Future wants argument


One of biggest counters to body autonomy of children is that violating it maybe upholds their future autonomy.


However, such counter doesnt work, because justification for it rests on same subjective reason as any other violation of autonomy.


We can logically deduce that "no one can violate body autonomy of others".


We cannot logically deduce "We can violate autonomy of others if it possibly upholds their future autonomy".


Because when:


Autonomy can be violated = Who gets to decide when it gets violated and for what reason?


And that question is a core self-defeat of all principles which attempt to violate body autonomy.


Any person can decide when autonomy gets violated = Any person can decide to violate autonomy of anyone always


And violating autonomy to preserve autonomy is a self defeating principle, because autonomy remains non-violated only if never violated. If it is violated, it is no longer autonomy but a removed autonomy.


It is not possible logically to follow a principle "No one gets to violate autonomy of others" while violating autonomy of others, for whatever reason the violation occurs.


And as autonomy principle is deduced from deductive logic, "future autonomy > current autonomy" argument is not only unproved and not logically deduced, but is self-defeating because it attempts to use subjective justification to violate autonomy, while same can be used to defeat it.


Principle is justified by subjective reason = Principle can be defeated by subjective reason



III. Harm argument


Another big counter to child's autonomy is harm argument, usually in its more objective form:


Any person can cause harm to others and justify it for subjective reasons = All harm becomes justified = Harm to prevent harm becomes justified.


However, the flaw of harm argument is essentially misunderstanding what harm is.


Harm entirely depends on desirable state of things or desirable functions being violated.


However, when it comes to wants and desires, cigarettes can be desirable on balance, so to not allow smoking would itself be harm.


Any person can deny wants of others for subjective reasons = all wants can be denied for subjective reasons, including wants of person to deny wants of others, hence resulting in inability of any person to deny wants (opposite principle)


Wants can be denied for subjective reasons = Wants to deny wants of others can likewise be denied for subjective reasons.


thus, "no person can deny wants of others", remains as true objective principle, because opposite principle simply doesnt survive dichotomy.


Harm argument likewise can be negated by body autonomy.


Body autonomy = Objective principle


In dichotomy between harm and body autonomy: Objective principle of body autonomy prevails.


Because harm can be justified by using not arbitrary, but objective principle of body autonomy.


Harm justified for objective reasons =/= Harm justified for subjective reasons.


So if body autonomy results in what person considers to be "harm", that harm is still not objectively wrong, because it isnt done with subjective justification, but an objective justification of body autonomy.



IV. Power/authority argument


One of big counters to moral principles and body autonomy is "might makes right".


In other words, someone can say:


"My decision to deny autonomy of others is justified by my power to do so."


However, power principle doesnt work in "should" debates, because it doesnt say what should or shouldnt be done.


Society has power to both impose and remove age restrictions, and having power alone doesnt deduce logically which decision should be made.


Likewise, morality which uses power as justification justifies anything, even my position. If something is justified by power, then all thoughts and actions which exist are justified by some power which enables them to exist, including my own position.



V. Subjective morality justification


Any moral principle derived from arbitrary reasons cannot be justified, and any excuse for violating objective principle by using arbitrary reasons merely enables its own denial by other arbitrary reasons.


Arbitrary reasons can be used to deny principle = Other arbitrary reasons can be used to deny those arbitrary reasons, and justification of "arbitrary reasons can be used to justify or deny" becomes self-defeat.



VI. Symmetry reciprocity principle


Any attempt to justify denying autonomy of others rests on these conditions:

  1. Justification for denial
  2. Ability of denial


Because justification is always arbitrary, same can be denied arbitrarily too, and 2 can be denied arbitrarily as well.


the only justification which would work is objective justification.


But who decides what objective justification is?


If anyone can decide what objective justification is = Anyone can decide to deny others of body autonomy based on what they think is objective justification, including denying ability to deny body autonomy, hence self defeat of any attempt at justification to deny body autonomy, even with what person thinks are "objective reasons.



VII. Opponent's burden


Because my opponent is ultimately arguing to violate body autonomy, the conditions for his position to be true are:

  1. Objective justification derived through deductive reasoning with starting premise being logical axiom
  2. Who decides what objective justification is?
  3. Who decides who gets to decide?
  4. Can objective justification be denied by some other objective justification?
  5. Solution to "ability of anyone to decide objective justification resulting in self-defeat".
  6. Who has ability to decide, and who gives that ability?


Compare that to simple body autonomy.


Everyone has body autonomy = No one violates autonomy of another


Principle is self-consistent, not self-defeating. the opposite principle, when accepted, defeats itself and returns to original principle after futile struggle to come up with justification which ends up being justification against the very principle using it, because symmetry argument which relies on same abilities defeats it.


If person says: "I can decide what objective justification for violating autonomy is",


I can say " then so can I, and I reject yours".



Conclusion:


With objective principle of "thou shall not violate autonomy of others" being logically deduced, and opposite principles resulting in self-defeat,

what follows is:


Choosing to smoke = allowed by body autonomy

Allowed by body autonomy = Allowed by objective morality

Choosing to smoke = Allowed by objective morality


Age restrictions = not allowed because they violate body autonomy

Violate body autonomy = Violate objective moral principle

Age restrictions = Violate objective moral principle.


So a person who smokes in private and doesnt smoke with others who are unwilling to inhale smoke, isnt violating autonomy of others.


But placing age restrictions is a violation of body autonomy and property choice.

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#2 •••

Any violation of body autonomy for arbitrary reasons = Enables removal of same violation for arbitrary reasons

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#3 •••
@SatanLucy

Yep, but you therefore must also except the legitimacy of paedophilia, murder, rape, bear bating etc.


Such is why we have social systems that devise and apply ethical and moral standards.

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#4 •••
@SergeantLynch

One can make arbitrary morals. They are still categorically self defeating.


Body autonomy cannot be violated for arbitrary reasons = same one result, no contradiction


Body autonomy can be violated for arbitrary reasons = contradictive results, each reason produces different violation and different condition for violation.

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#5 •••
@SatanLucy

Bodily autonomy sits on a subjective foundation. It's important to us because we say so. Challenges to it can't be simply dismissed as 'subjective' without deteriorating bodily autonomy itself.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#6 •••
@SkepticalOne
Bodily autonomy sits on a subjective foundation


No. It is objectively true that any arbitrary justification for violating autonomy produces defeat against itself.


So autonomy is proved by objective truth that any violation of it is self-contradictive in justification.

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#7 •••
@SatanLucy
So autonomy is proved by objective truth that any violation of it is self-contradictive in justification.


Even if that were true, it would not make it objective truth. It makes it an objective standard built on a subjective foundation.


Secondly, autonomy isn't an absolute for every person for every situation. For instance, a child doesn't that hasnt achieved the age of reason/consent doesnt have full autonomy. Parents have the ability to override a child preferences to protect them. Barring that means a lot of youth will die ir suffer unnecessarily.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#8 •••
@SkepticalOne

Violating autonomy is good = violating autonomy of those who violate autonomy is good = violating autonomy by removing ability to violate autonomy is good = ability to violate autonomy disappears, removal of ability to violate autonomy becomes justified


You are describing a recursive moral structure where a principle turns back onto itself.


The chain can be expressed more clearly like this:


1. Premise: “Violating autonomy is good.”



2. Then violating the autonomy of autonomy-violators is also good.



3. Preventing them from violating autonomy may require restricting or removing their capacity to do so.



4. Therefore the principle justifies suppressing agents who practice it.




So the principle contains a tendency toward self-negation: a universal permission to violate autonomy authorizes others to stop you from violating autonomy.


This resembles a kind of self-undermining universalization problem:


If everyone may violate autonomy,


then everyone may also suppress autonomy-violators,


which can lead to systems that eliminate the very freedom to violate autonomy.



The result is not a strict formal contradiction like “A and not-A” simultaneously, but rather a self-consuming norm: the principle authorizes conditions that can abolish its own exercise.


Your reasoning is structurally close to ideas in:


Thomas Hobbes — unrestricted liberty leading to conflict and the creation of constraints,


Immanuel Kant — universalization and contradiction in willing,


and modern “paradox of tolerance” discussions associated with Karl Popper.



The underlying pattern is:


> A universally permitted destructive principle permits its own suppression.




That does not automatically prove autonomy is absolutely inviolable in every imaginable case, but it does show that a principle of arbitrary autonomy-violation struggles to remain stable when universalized.

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#9 •••
@SkepticalOne
Secondly, autonomy isn't an absolute for every person for every situation. For instance, a child doesn't that hasnt achieved the age of reason/consent doesnt have full autonomy. Parents have the ability to override a child preferences to protect them. Barring that means a lot of youth will die ir suffer unnecessarily


Children have same autonomy as adults.


This is because removing autonomy for subjective reasons is a self-defeating principle.


Person A wants to remove autonomy from others for subjective reasons = autonomy can be removed for subjective reasons = People can remove autonomy from person A for subjective reasons = person A loses ability to remove autonomy from others for subjective reasons

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#10 •••
@SatanLucy
Children have same autonomy as adults

No, they dont. If that were true, punishment of any kind would be against the law and/or immoral.


This is because removing autonomy for subjective reasons is a self-defeating principle.

Argument from repetition? You're not addressing the counter-argument...


Person A wants to remove autonomy from others for subjective reasons = autonomy can be removed for subjective reasons = People can remove autonomy from person A for subjective reasons = person A loses ability to remove autonomy from others for subjective reasons

That is really not very clear. Morality itself is subjective.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#11 •••
@SatanLucy

Such is philosophy, which always looks good on paper....But the paper version rarely matches with day to day social function.

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#12 •••
@SkepticalOne
No, they dont. If that were true, punishment of any kind would be against the law and/or immoral.


False conclusion.



Argument from repetition? You're not addressing the counter-argument...


Your "counter argument" is that it was on subjective foundation, which it isnt.



That is really not very clear.


If you cant follow simple line of logic, then you probably dont need to bother with anything here.



Morality itself is subjective.


False.


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#13 •••
@SergeantLynch
But the paper version rarely matches with day to day social function


How society functions is irrelevant to what objective truth is.


However, you will find that respecting autonomy of others is usually better for you than not respecting it, so cant really say belief in body autonomy isnt beneficial to person who believes in it.

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#14 •••
@SatanLucy

How society functions is reality...Which is an objective truth...And also the very definition of objective truth.


And autonomy within a society is yet another philosophers paper based rambling.


So okay we can find solitude from time to time, but rarely can we separate completely from the demands of society and the constraints that society sometimes imposes.

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#15 •••
@SergeantLynch
How society functions is reality


No, if society functions based on a lie, that lie isnt reality. If society is full of liars, that may be how society functions, but it doesnt convert lies to truth.

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#16 •••
@SatanLucy

Society functions and at the end of a day there is no turning back the clock...So function it did and the base reality of everything that occurred was the truth of what occurred...The only lie would be to say otherwise...But the speed of time dictates that even such a lie would instantaneously be rendered the truth.


In short...What is done is done and what isn't isn't, and there is no in between.

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#17 •••
@SatanLucy

Clearly, we are talking past one another and have no common ground from which to debate. Cheers.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#18 •••
@SergeantLynch
So function it did and the base reality of everything that occurred was the truth of what occurred


Sure, saying that "liar lies" is truth, it is reality of what occurs. But it doesnt mean lies which liar says = truth.

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#19 •••

I'm as old as Trump and I never smoked. Trump didn't smoke either. All my friends that did smoke are dead.

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#20 •••
@FLRW

Everyone dies. Of course, people who smoke die sooner, but its still a voluntary slow suicide. I am sure if smokers wanted to merely live longer, they wouldnt be smokers.

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#21 •••
@SatanLucy

I conclude;

  1. Philosophy has never been so verbose re: a foolish product.
  2. Smoking at any age is totally counter-productive. Non N Newhart, a comedian, once mocked smoking pretending to be Sir Walter Raleigh introducing Europeans to the native American habit of smoking.


"So, you harvest the leaves of a tobacco plant, dry them, shred them, and roll a large pinch of the shreds into a small piece of paper. Seal the paper tube, put one end in your mouth and light the other end on fire. Then suck the smoke into your mouth and throat, let it linger, then blow it out of your mouth. Repeat until the tube is less than an inch long. Beware, it can burn your fingers. Light up another one."

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We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#22 •••
@fauxlaw
Smoking at any age is totally counter-productive


What is productive depends on what is wanted.

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#23 •••
@fauxlaw
Philosophy has never been so verbose re: a foolish product


Actually, what I presented isn't mere philosophy.


It is a self removal function in Boolean logic.


A = B


B = removal of A


A = removal of A


And this logic remains true in case of ability to remove autonomy.


Removing autonomy = removes ability to remove autonomy


In other words,


A = removal of A.


A self-removing principle.



So saying that


"Autonomy can be removed for subjective reasons"


When removal of autonomy = removal of ability to remove autonomy,


What follows is:


Autonomy can be removed for subjective reasons = ability to remove autonomy can be removed for subjective reasons


In other words:


A = removes ability of A


A self-destruct of principle.

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#24 •••
@SatanLucy

There is absolutely6 no up-side advantage to smoking. There are much safer ways to deal with anxiety rather than be the cause/recipient of living in a smoke cloud.

Edit post

We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#25 •••
@SatanLucy

Boolean logic is merely mathematical translation of a philosophy.

Edit post

We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#26 •••
@fauxlaw
Boolean logic is merely mathematical translation of a philosophy.


Boolean logic is fun, tho its a computer logic. All functions are made from "true false" combinations.


It uses different operators.


For example, true or false = true, because "or" in Boolean logic isnt same as in standard language. "or" there simply means "one of these is true".


In Boolean logic, what we consider "or" in standard language, is xor in boolean.


So when someone says "choose between A or B", in Boolean language, that would be A XOR B.

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#27 •••
@fauxlaw
There is absolutely6 no up-side advantage to smoking. There are much safer ways to deal with anxiety rather than be the cause/recipient of living in a smoke cloud.


Smoking is free dopamine in head. Well, not free. Pack costs usually 2 to 4 dollars.

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#28 •••
@SatanLucy

A or B is few keystrokes than boolean.


Dopamine is free, produced by the brain at zero cost, since we provide nutrients to the body anyway through the pie hole.

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We tell God what to do and then blame Him for our errors.

- Dr. Pet Dragon of Sorbonne University

#29 •••
@fauxlaw
A or B is few keystrokes than boolean.


Boolean logic is based on "true false" and functions. In this case, when "A" is assigned true, and "B" is assigned true, A at same time becomes false because B true makes A false.



Dopamine is free, produced by the brain at zero cost, since we provide nutrients to the body anyway through the pie hole.


No, dopamine is produced specifically by dopamine-producing activities. And some activities produce way more dopamine than others.


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#30 •••


Hmmm, my key to longevity is the same as Ernest Borgnine's. Orgasms trigger significant dopamine spikes in the brain's reward center, specifically the nucleus accumbens.

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