School shooting gun control.

Would such laws have stopped this shooting?

"O'Hara said that the weapons used in the shooting were legally purchased recently and that there was no previous indication that Robin Westman, who was a transgender woman, suffered from mental illness. Westman had no police record, besides a traffic ticket."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minneapolis-church-shooting-search-warrants-reveal-new-details-evidenc-rcna228034

Maybe, I don't actually know enough about the case.

But I've not heard evidence yet, that it would have.

. . . Well, depends what you mean by Gun Control laws, I suppose.

In China, private ownership of firearms is generally prohibited, with very limited exceptions for specific groups such as licensed hunters and sport shooters.

Isn't gender dysphoria a mental illness though?

@FLRW

Can't say I'd want America to adopt a lot of China political structure and laws,

But hey, might be useful for my debate on guns.

@Shoresy

Depends who you ask.

Also, I don't think all mental illness is the same.

I'm thinking some mental illness is categorized as potentially more dangerous to society, than other mental illness.

Dysphoria is very dangerous. Most of the time they try to kill themselves. A few times they take people with them. It's a very serious thing.

Can't say I've researched Dysphoria any, or what statistical proof of danger they might tend to be towards others.

Americans who identify as transgender do not attack and kill people at a disproportionate rate. And, according to several experts on extremism and mass shootings interviewed by USA TODAY, there's no evidence gender identity had any influence on Robin Westman's decision to shoot children at a Catholic school. Rather, the evidence the attacker left behind indicates a deep interest in mass shooters and mass shootings, suggesting involvement in an internet subculture that obsesses over these attacks and that has become known as "nihilistic violent extremism."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/08/29/shooting-minnesota-school-transgender-online-untruths/85876291007

But I've not heard evidence yet, that people with Dysphoria  are dangerous to others.

I'm fond of Rights for Americans,

Someone being a bit confused about their Sex, doesn't seem a good reason to me, to ban them from owning firearms.

I said they are dangerous to themselves with high suicide rates. That's not really contested.

We all know suicidal people sometimes take others with them, which is why you shouldn't give people with conditions like dysphoria access to guns, among other things to facilitate death.

at a disproportionate rate. 

Making a common-sense policy to restrict guns from people with mental issues has nothing to do with overall rates. You always should work to make things better, no matter what. If you don't care that they are killing themselves, at least care for that one time a school gets shot up.

Because of their Dysphoria, or because of society reactions?

I've not heard any 'evidence.

If we're just talking theoreticals,

I can theorize that homosexuals have/had a higher rate of suicide, especially in earlier years when laws, family, jobs, culture were more unfriendly to them.

Doesn't mean I'd take away their right to guns.

While I might be willing to contact the police if an 'individual seemed homicidal, psychotic, or have plans of murder.

Or I might ask a friend or family member if I can take their guns from them when they seem suicidal.

I am not interested in taking away the rights of individuals for a bit of gender confusion or sadness.

I view people as having a choice with what they do with their own life.

Various X people of X belief/identity/lifestyle are at a higher rate of homicide, doesn't mean that group ought have their rights stripped.

Additionally, I'm not sure X people 'are at a higher chance of homicide.

https://csgjusticecenter.org/publications/addressing-misconceptions-about-mental-health-and-violence

I don't view school shootings as a crisis.

Are people upset by how 'many people die, Or are they upset by the 'concept of 'scary homicide using guns?

'Many 'more people die unrelated to mass shootings, Die of homicide, Suicide, Accident, Die from self indulgent pleasure such as alcohol and cigarettes. Than 'of mass shootings.

'Why remove 'Rights of Americans, That are 'instrumental to our Liberty and Safety?

"An estimated 40,990 lives were lost in traffic crashes in the U.S. in 2023" on U. S. Roadways.

Road Safety Facts | Association for Safe International Road Travel

"Each year over 3 million new chainsaws are sold in the United States. The operation of these newer saws combined with the millions of older chainsaws in circulation results in over 28, 000 chainsaw-related injures annually. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15027558

"An estimated 95,000 people (approximately 68,000 men and 27,000 women) die from alcohol-related causes annually,15 making alcohol the third-leading preventable cause of death in the United States."

https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/sites/default/files/publications/NIAAA_Alcohol_Facts_and_Stats_0.pdf

Because of their Dysphoria, or because of society's reactions?

It's dysphoria. People afflicted with dysphoria kill themselves. People who want to kill themselves and potentially others with themselves shouldn't have guns, regardless of the reasons for doing it.

Why do you want to give suicidal people guns? You Americans deserve to live in a world of crazy.

I can theorize that homosexuals

Homosexuality isn't a DSM illness. Dysphoria is.

I don't see localized gun control ever being effective, considering how easy it is to get around by merely hopping over a border

"It's dysphoria. People with dysphoria kill themselves." - Shoresy

You gave no evidence for this claim.

I don't want to 'give suicidal people guns.

I am disinclined to forcibly remove from people their free will, property, and rights.

Not all Americans hold my views on guns.

You mean homosexuality is not in the 'current DSM

Doesn't mean every person or country agrees on what mental illness is.

"In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) removed the diagnosis of “homosexuality” from the second edition of its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM)."

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4695779

You gave no evidence for this claim.

You were awfully fast to look up sources that kept you from changing your mind.

You can look that one up just as fast.

suicide rates are also high among Homosexuals who also have dysphoria (feel pressured to conversion therapy much like trans)

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2024/09/conversion-practices-lgbt.html

short answer, don't give any dysphoric person a gun.

Because, so I hear, and, owning guns myself, I am witness to the fact that a gun, without the assist of a human brain and a hand, is a mere unused tool a bit like a spoon. Ban the people if you want to ban something.

Personally, I'm opposed to that, too. I've just concluded that in a free society, their are bad behavors, and, unfortunately, successful legislating of human behavior is not possible. Plenty of non-violent criminals in prisons are proof of that.

so how do you take care of a mentally ill person?

The Reagan admin shutdown all fed-controlled mental institutions, expecting States to pick up the tab, as this issue is not appropriately a federal issue in the first place. States never picked it up. A lot of poor reading and comprehension of constitutional separation of powers which most people, I observe, only use that term with regard to the fed gov't. Nope, States have governments, too, and they have their set of obligations, and the feds have theirs. We're all confused on which are whose. Too much hooch, I think, is too blame.

From your source I see that roughly 60% of people with dysphoria 'don't try to kill themselves.

Thus I can see that 'just having dysphoria, does not mean someone will try to kill themself.

"More than 40% of transgender adults in the US have attempted suicide"

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/transpop-suicide-press-release

What is the 'correct percent at which to remove people's rights, property, and choice?

Among alcoholics, the lifetime risk of suicide is about 10–15%

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2872355

Why ought they be treated as a class of people, and not treated for their individual merits?

. . .

I 'could be faster to look up sources that disagree with me,

But I would not enjoy that as much in this conversation.

I might in my spare time look up sources that disagree with me, but currently I'm enjoying this side of the conversation.

From your source I see that roughly 60% of people with dysphoria 'don't try to kill themselves.

Thus I can see that 'just having dysphoria, does not mean someone will try to kill themself.

We can say 60% of people who drink and drive don't kill anyone. That doesn't mean they get to drive, or own a gun after killing others.

My point still stands, if you can do something to keep a high-risk person from killing himself and others, you do that. Alcoholics should not have legal access to drive. Crazy people should not have legal access to guns, period.

You always should work to make things better, no matter what. If you don't care that they are killing themselves, at least care for that one time a school gets shot up.

You never gave a counter to this.

Only in America

"We can say 60% of people who drink and drive don't kill anyone. That doesn't mean they get to drive, or own a gun after killing others."

-Shoresy

"after killing others."

-Shoresy

Who has the dysphoria individual killed? additionally suicide is not homicide.

"More than 40% of transgender adults in the US have attempted suicide"

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/transpop-suicide-press-release

"We all know suicidal people sometimes take others with them, which is why you shouldn't give people with conditions like dysphoria access to guns, among other things to facilitate death."

-Shoresy

I do not know that suicidal people are more likely to be homicidal.

Nor do I know 'why individuals with dysphoria 'currently have a higher suicide rate.

"You always should work to make things better, no matter what. If you don't care that they are killing themselves, at least care for that one time a school gets shot up."

- Shoresy

I don't think the number of school shootings is significant to the point that it requires the abolishment of The Second Amendment.

I think there are methods other than guns that can kill people with equal or worse results.

I like guns.

. . . I 'am for communities, cities, and states removing their Guns Rights if they so wish, but I do not want to live in such a community myself.

Better. . . Everyone could wear helmets, knee and elbow pads all the time, maybe less death and injury from falling.

Doesn't mean I'd find the state of affairs better.

People could be 'forced not to eat sugar or greasy food, doesn't mean I think government 'ought have such power,

Nor do I want to live in such a society.

I don't think the number of school shootings is significant to the point that it requires the abolishment of The Second Amendment.

You don't need to touch a word of your Constitution to keep a drunk person away from the wheel of a car or a mentally ill person away from a gun store.

I don't think all mental illness is the same,

Nor do I think all people agree what is mental illness.

Also, I believe in slippery slopes.

I could also say your constitution is a slippery slope cause it might allow mentally ill people to own guns.

Same here in the UK, as in China.

And in the U.S. it's just another enthralling statistic and a dramatic media opportunity.

School kids blown away, by a loony with a gun.

But hey, guns are safe if you use them correctly.

What...Sort of point and pull the trigger.

Plenty more schools, kids and loonies where they came from.

So, moving on to more important issues...Is Trump dead or playing golf?

I don't see localized gun control ever being effective, considering how easy it is to get around by merely hopping over a border

See: Casinos on Native American Indian reservations.

I could also say your constitution is a slippery slope cause it might allow mentally ill people to own guns.

I think you are on to something here. This forum is proof that the First Amendment gives mentally ill people the right to free speech.

Well, mentally he is dead.

He seems very alive within your own head

So, moving on to more important issues...Is Trump dead or playing golf?

He's not dead yet, but he's fading fast.

No way he serves his full term, between cognitive decline, failing health, impeachment, 25th amendment, a military coup, and insurrection, and the possibility that a true patriot shoots his sorry ass, I give him less than 1% chance of serving 4 years.

One of these days the whole world will need to learn how to say 'President Vance" without laughing, that's not gonna be easy.