America, WTF?

I've never voted for him, though I've been tempted to.

. . .

1st, I suppose I wouldn't take him seriously, just assume he's joking.

2nd, I don't think he'd be able to manage it even if he 'was serious.

Can't say I 'know much about Citizenship in America, history or legal.

But no 'obvious answers come to me of natural born citizens who were exiled or forcibly stripped of citizenship.

Jefferson Davis?

Slaves?

Native Americans?

Japanese Americans?

All a bunch of question marks for me, because I don't know much. But still, I doubt Rosie is going to have her citizenship taken away.

1st, I suppose I wouldn't take him seriously, just assume he's joking.

2nd, I don't think he'd be able to manage it even if he 'was serious.

None of which are the point. This is deeply embarrassing, but it will hardly even be covered because this is just who he is. In terms of "news", it's just Tuesday. If any other president had ever written something like this everyone would be screaming 25th amendment, but it's Trump so for him he gets another term. Kamala Harris didn't impress people enough with her 5 point economic plan, so this becomes justifiable. The absurdity here is beyond words.

But the other point you inadvertantly raised is what I've come to see as the core issue. He gets away with this because he's not seen as a serious person, which is itself dumbfounding. POTUS is arguably the most serious job on the planet, electing someone who we find to be unserious is a contradiction, which makes the person who votes for him definitionally an idiot, thus making the statement "Trump voters are idiots" literally, an objective fact.

Certainly he isn't my ideal of presidential behavior,

Though I sometimes wonder what other presidents in history have publicly said and announced,

I've not read enough to know.

Might be even in written recorded documents, that there's more embarrassing moments that we might expect.

I also suspect the internet and social media age might be partially to blame.

. . I'm also not well read on politics in general, I'm unsure about other politicians, whether local America or other parts of the world.

Maybe they're also more impolite that we'd realize.

. . . But I also don't think Trump is a 'norm for politicians anywhere. I don't consider him a politician or even a businessman, so much as a showman. Though he 'is of course a politician and a businessman.

I 'think I've said in the past I think he 'would be a facist if he could get away with it, but I don't think he can, so in a sense that matters to me, he's not.

Though I still think he shares many similarities with facists. Cults of personality, Grandiosity, Lies, Showmanship.

Like Putin or the Kims, displays of supposed prowess or macho.

. . . Well, even Democracies might like a bit of fanfare I suppose, grand displays and ceremony.

Heh, lot of Americans thought Adams a bit pompous though, his ideas for presidential titles.

I 'do think POTUS is an important job, and what one says in that position has effects.

Trumps style isn't one I care for, nor the lightness he treats his statements to the public from his position.

. . Though one could argue it has a degree of effectiveness in stirring popular support. . It's too selfish a support for my liking. Harmful to the whole.

. . . . . . But I can see where some Trump supporters are coming from.

Even if Trump is an idiot, even if he is harmful to the whole, he's less damage, than a candidate from the opposing party. (Ideally)

Maybe he even ends up taking actions that benefit their values. Judge appointments for instance.

People on the Right, maybe don't like Clinton taking away guns, don't like Wokeness, and much more, that often 'seems to take place when the opposing party get's into power.

Seems like it 'could take place, would take place, might take place.

Give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

One 'prevents 'evil from overtaking one's society, by not 'allowing it at all.

Why should one 'cooperate with evil that surely wants more than one small concession, what 'they want is to entirely change society to their way. Destroy our Culture, Traditions, and HIstory.

They only 'compromise, because they can't 'force their way, 'yet.

Compromising only gives them more power to force their evil upon us!

I'm not saying X is evil, or that I think the above quite.

But I reckon it's how many people view it.

. . .

The problem of course is selfishness again, short term gain, but can be long term loss.

I've heard some people complain about Newt Gingrich damaging cooperation between the parties.

. . . Maybe a lot of it is social media again, not that the past 'lacked social media.

Always been culture wars.

I'm glad Trump Made China Great Again!

Here is a post from last night on social media from the president of the United States:

"As previously mentioned, we are giving serious thought to taking away Rosie O’Donnell’s Citizenship. She is not a Great American and is, in my opinion, incapable of being so!"

Did you see the picture? He also posted a doctored picture of Rosie O'Donnell, this is from the official White House account of the President of the United States, unbelievable.

Rosie's response was perfect:

"“I'm the distraction. Epstein survivors are the reckoning and your gold lamé throne is melting,”

Why should anyone care about rich people beating up on other rich people?

Certainly he isn't my ideal of presidential behavior,

Though I sometimes wonder what other presidents in history have publicly said and announced

You really seem to be downplaying the severity of this. There is no parallel, no comparison to Trump. There has never been a prominent elected politician, certainly not within our lifetimes, as fundamentally flawed and broken as this man. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say this man is the worst kind of person in literally every way that matters when it comes to someone leading a country. He's a narcissistic, childish, petulant, vile, ignorant, conspiracy theorizing pathological liar... And every single one of those in the extreme. You couldn't design a politician in a lab worse than him.

Other politicians are certainly flawed, but this is a whole different category of terrible. I think Sam Harris put it best when he said "if Trump were half as bad he'd seem worse, because at least then he'd be recognizably bad". Instead, he's so bad that he's like a cartoon character that people just think it's not real, so they give him the benefit of the doubt. It's insane.

I 'think I've said in the past I think he 'would be a facist if he could get away with it, but I don't think he can, so in a sense that matters to me, he's not.

This is dangerously wrongheaded. Fascism can be used to describe a government, or an ideology. Ideologically, Trump is a fascist, full stop. This idea that he tries to be but won't succeed is just flat out dangerous. If I had your child in the back seat of my car while I'm doing 100mph, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be comforted by the fact that statistically, the overwhelming majority of the time the person doing 100 doesn't crash. You would recognize the danger I put your child in and hold me accountable for that regardless of what happens next.

Trump voters deserve every ounce of that sentiment.

But I can see where some Trump supporters are coming from.

Even if Trump is an idiot, even if he is harmful to the whole, he's less damage, than a candidate from the opposing party. (Ideally)

This is exactly what makes Trump so terrible. He is such a horrific choice the only way he can win is by convincing his supporters the other side is worse, and since they cannot do that with facts they have to make up their own and build an entire media echo system around the spread of his propaganda.

If Trump weren't out there convincing his supporters that undocumented immigrants are criminals and terrorists, that gay and trans people are groomers comming for your children, that liberal cities are crime infested hell holes, that the Democratic party is a satanic pedophile cult... He would have nothing to offer his base.

It's all bullshit, but that's the state of American politics now. I remember visiting online forums in the late 2000's in bewilderment of the fact that people were really dumb enough to believe 9/11 was an inside job, but was at least comforted by the belief that this stupidity was limited to the dark corners of the internet. Now, it's half the country thanks to the orange clown. Amerrca.

"downplaying the severity of this"

Well, I must admit that Trump makes me glad for American President term limits.

"Fascism can be used to describe a government, or an ideology."

"If I had your child in the back seat of my car while I'm doing 100mph, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be comforted"

I suppose I see it more as the car going the speed limit, within sight of the cops, but driven by a person who would 'like to go 100mph.

A lot of people believe in ideals I don't like, but so long as they don't significantly 'act on those ideas, or are quickly brought back into line by society and law. I'm not worried.

I think a 'lot of people have ideals I don't like, things they 'could be, but as they can't and don't act on them, I don't worry too much.

Maybe 'most people have ideals I don't like.

I view it more as a person who would 'like to do 100mph, but but is constantly within sight of the police, so they don't.

I don't see him as an 'ideal person for American function or interaction with other countries,

But I'm not sure he's the worst.

If we could without coercion get part of Canada or Greenland to join into America, I think that would be a positive for our country.

I think Trump did alright in the Israel Iran situation.

. . .

I still don't like him, divisive to America, trying to blackmail people such as Ukraine president. I'm doubtful about the wisdom of the tariffs.

But even that can be seen in another light, as just politics,

I've a pessimistic view of politics and politicians.

Though I 'do want better than Trump.

But I don't think he's going 100mph.

He'd 'like to, but a 'lot of people would like to.

I think he's within the speed limit.

"the spread of his propaganda."

An issue though is there is 'some truth to the propaganda, not the way 'he says there is, he exaggerates and lies obviously.

And I'm not saying the Left is to blame.

But undocumented immigrants 'are a problem,

Gay and trans 'are reaching out to schools and younger generations, I don't mean grooming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour

I suppose one could argue avoiding drag queens is like avoiding people of other races,

But the fact of influence remains.

I don't hear about Conservative cities being used as sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants.

Some places such as San Francisco 'do look run down.

. . .

Of course I 'do think it's horrible the 'amount of distortion Trump uses,

Illegal Immigrants are mostly just 'people, same with Democrats and Drag Queens (Probably)

. . . But even without the lies and distortions, I don't think the Right 'likes illegal immigration, trans or democrats spreading their culture, or values in schools.

The 'apparent amount of support for trans surgery on kids,

'Probably only support for situations that need it.

But that's not the way they come off.

The Left and their minority history and representation above merit.

Unfortunately of course, I see even myself regurgitating propaganda without stating sources, people, statistics,

But I don't entirely blame Trump,

I've always had a problem with exact facts and statistics,

. . . But politicians have always had a problem with what they 'say and what they 'do.

Public statements and laws passed, there's so much one has to keep track of.

Loud small opinions.

"online forums in the late 2000's"

If the entire population was on social media in the 2000s, I think there'd be the same amount of stupidity maybe.

Maybe only a certain portion and type of people were on the internet back then.

Maybe the internet hadn't configured quite yet for the 'visibility of crazy people.

. . .

Divisive politics 'isn't something I want, even if I don't really like a number of other peoples values and policies. And I doubt the wisdom of people of different ideologies mixing so much.

I 'do think people should worry about an inch and a mile, worry about sliding slopes.

"He didn't say that and if he did he didn't mean it and if he did it's not illegal and if it is everyone's doing it and if they're not she did something way worse."

I see it more as the car going the speed limit, within sight of the cops, but driven by a person who would 'like to go 100mph.

The facts just don't support that view. I would say that was accurate in 2017 when a first term Trump walked into office having no idea what he was doing and surrounded himself with people who did. Back then these people, knowing the implications of Trump's impulses were able to push back and nudge him in a different direction. He hadn't yet built the cult devotion he needed to get away with the worst.

That has changed. Trump 2.0 is entirely different. He understands now that institutions are only as good as the people running them, and had engaged in a systematic purging of anyone who will stand in his way. This is why he values loyalty over competence. It's why he picked a Fox news host to run the Defense Department, a vaccine quack to run the CDC, a couple of podcasters to run the FBI.

And the results speak for themselves. He's already sent military troops into 2 US cities, is rounding up people all across this country and deporting them with no due process, punishing law firms for representing clients unfavorable to him, ordering his government to violate the constitution, etc. All of this was unthinkable even one year ago.

That's not to say it will ultimately work, that remains to be seen. But this isn't a guy who wants to be an authoritarian, he is. It's here right now. The only question is how far it will go and how deep the impacts of this will be.

An issue though is there is 'some truth to the propaganda

There is always some truth to it, that's what makes propaganda work. Immigration is a problem and some illegals do commit crimes, the rest is just made up. But that's the game; scare people to death with the parts you made up, then when challenged accuse the dissenters of arguing against the parts that are true. It's one of the very few things Trump and MAGA are actually very good at, although in fairness the democrats are really bad at talking about this.

But even without the lies and distortions, I don't think the Right 'likes illegal immigration, trans or democrats spreading their culture, or values in schools.

The school thing is a BS cop out, just like the trans women in women's sports. This isn't about the children, it's about bigotry against trans people. The children are just the cover the political right always uses to mask their bigotry - it's the one place where they can argue without it all falling apart.

The 'apparent amount of support for trans surgery on kids,

'Probably only support for situations that need it.

But that's not the way they come off.

Because you're probably listening to right wing propaganda, andI day today largely because the democrats are not even talking about this stuff. This is the game at work, right wing outlets obsess over this stuff 24/7, and all democrats are doing is responding to the overt bigotry.

I don't hear about Conservative cities being used as sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants.

Do you know what a sanctuary city is, or why they exist?

If the entire population was on social media in the 2000s, I think there'd be the same amount of stupidity maybe.

Social media definitely had a lot to do with it, but it also really helps when the commander in chief is spreading the same nonsense and forcing other political leaders into doing the same. Most people do not exercise much critical thinking, if their friend circles believe it and their political leaders believe it... Well it must be reasonable at the least.

Divisive politics 'isn't something I want,

Then why would you even be tempted to vote for the most divisive president we've ever seen?

"The facts just don't support that view." Double_R

I 'do think you make a good argument on him maybe having more yes men in his second term.

But president is 'still a temporary position, cult or not, I find a third term incredibly unlikely.

He's an old man, might die or age out sooner rather than later.

I'm also poorly educated on political appointees various scopes of power and how long they remain in said positions.

I know that they 'exist, and would rather have people I approve of, but ideally most of them will wash out eventually.

. . . A previous coworker of mine voted for Trump, because they were just so angry about politics in general, and wanted the system shaken up.

People 'are getting that I suppose, As many of Trumps appointees 'are unusual, again I think of my view of him as a showman, rather than politician.

The people he connects with similarly are often of showbiz.

. . . I don't think I'd call it 'good, but it is 'different.

"He's already sent military troops into 2 US cities" Double_R

Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles?

And heck if I know 'why exactly. Lots of 'possible reasons, none really hitting my Coup Warning.

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/national-guard-dc-trash-pick-up-trump-b2818830.html

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/national-guard-troops-in-washington-are-now-carrying-firearms-including-handguns-and-rifles

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/04/trumps-blue-city-law-and-order-crackdowns-are-also-about-immigration-00544545

"While they will not conduct arrests, guardsmen have the authority to temporarily detain individuals to prevent imminent harm, ensuring that custody is promptly transferred to law enforcement authorities, he said."

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/4277906/guard-assisting-law-enforcement-in-making-dc-safe/#:~:text=While%20they%20will%20not%20conduct,law%20enforcement%20authorities%2C%20he%20said.

I think it's ICE, not the National Guard arresting people?

I admit I don't care for 'how Trump is handling immigration,

But that is one of the 'frustrations of government.

For example, citizens say we think X should be illegal,

Government says, so you want the maximum penalty for X, that will actually make the problem worse?

Citizen, no.

Government, well the other option is the other party, and they don't want to outlaw X.

Citizen, Carp.

. . . But the problem of Trump, in my mind has long been his 'skirting, not breaking of the law.

Technicalities and loopholes, reasonable doubt.

Wryly's not wrong in how many people view Trump,

"He didn't say that and if he did he didn't mean it and if he did it's not illegal and if it is everyone's doing it and if they're not she did something way worse."

Even if I and many other people don't like 'how Trump is doing something, we often want 'something done.

Not nothing or the inverse.

I still don't see Trump as 'functionally an Authoritarian, he may have such desire and 'style, but he does not have the actions of such.

There is still Technicalities and loopholes, reasonable doubt, precedents of sorts.

He is likely 'still out of office when his term is up, not a dictator.

"The school thing is a BS cop out, just like the trans women in women's sports. This isn't about the children, it's about bigotry against trans people." Double_R

I think it can both be bigotry and for the kids.

. . . Bigotry seems a bit of a loaded word though.

Surely 'all people are bigoted towards 'something?

These people have an idea of what is a right way to live life, see trans as harmful, as lies and delusion.

Why should they 'not try to prevent their children from normalizing or being indoctrinated by it?

Whether it 'is bad or not is a different question,

What 'matters is that people think it is bad, (For various reasons).

Thus they support laws, culture, and 'leaders like Trump, who oppose it.

"Because you're probably listening to right wing propaganda," Double_R

Well, not that much I'd say.

But I could probably be better in what I Google, Youtube, Reddit.

. . It's more I don't pay much attention to politics and news in general. Which isn't admirable.

"Do you know what a sanctuary city is, or why they exist?" Double_R

"A sanctuary city is a municipality that limits or denies its cooperation with the national government in enforcing immigration law."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city

Charitably, because people want more equal rights and humane outcomes for humans nearby, even if they're illegal.

Less charitable, (Expunged)

"Then why would you even be tempted to vote for the most divisive president we've ever seen?" Double_R

Maybe I'm a tribalistic, individualistic, generally traditional person.

I think I line up with more ideas on the Right, than the Left.

Even if I dislike a lot of 'how said ideas are carried out by the Right.

I dislike a 'lot of ideas I see on the Left.

I still don't see Trump as 'functionally an Authoritarian, he may have such desire and 'style, but he does not have the actions of such.

There is still Technicalities and loopholes, reasonable doubt, precedents of sorts.

He is likely 'still out of office when his term is up, not a dictator.

I think you are missing the whole point.

First of all, his actions as president are not style, they're actions, as in real things that he really did. Here's a few more examples:

1. Signed multiple executive orders directing the justice department to investigate his political opponent's
2. Upon taking office, fired most of the inspector generals in the DOJ (those are the people whose literal job it is to investigate and report fraud from within the administration)
3. Signed schedule F reclassifying government workers who had previous job protections so he could fire anyone he wants essentially politicizing positions that were specifically deemed non-political
4. Signed an executive order telling states how to run their own elections (mandating voter ID)

These aren't "well maybe" kind of actions, these are all definitionally authoritarian, along with the other examples I provided earlier.

There is no reasonable doubt about his motivations. The pattern of behavior is clear and blatantly predictable, and there is no alternative narrative that explains them all, certainly not one at the least which the administration has provided.

You really seem comforted by the idea that his term will end and that will be it. Maybe that will turn out to be the case, but to think the system will hold simply because that's what we're used to is naive and wrongheaded.

Complacency is the reason every democracy falls. But what's so remarkable in this case is how obvious it is that he will try. This is the same guy who tried to steal 2020, and it took a mob takeover of the US Capitol with 140 injured Capitol police officers for this man to finally give up. And even then, the only thing that moved him was the backlash he faced. That will not be there this time around.

In 2020 Trump ordered his DOJ to seize voting machines, the only thing that stopped him was that his top DOJ officials threatened to quit en masse. You really think that would work this time around, especially after being re-elected post J6? No way in hell, and that is if the he faced the same obstacle. This time around he won't.

The constitution does not enforce itself, that requires people willing to put it above themselves. Trump is purposefully, systematically getting rid of all those people. He is literally having new recruits take a loyalty test before bringing them into the government. I really don't know who you think is going to stand up and stop him, he controls all the big guns, and half the country is solidly behind him.

I do share your belief that democracy will ultimately hold, but your comfort is deeply misplaced. And what's most remarkable to me is that we seem to agree that it will likely hold in spite of him, not because of him. That is remarkable, and I have no idea how you justify even having the temptation to vote for him knowing that.

Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles?

And heck if I know 'why exactly. Lots of 'possible reasons, none really hitting my Coup Warning.

Because you aren't considering the full context. There is no justification for this. He claims it's to fight crime, and yet, not only is he sending the troops into the tourist parts of the city where almost no crime is happening, he's also threatening to use them in other blue states despite the fact many of the red states are worse. If he wanted to address crime he would do it in a way that's sustainable and nonconfrontational. This isn't.

This isn't about crime, it's about power. He is normalizing the idea of troops being sent into American cities, something that was unthinkable even one year ago. This is called shifting the Overton window, and he's been doing it ever since he rode down the golden escalator. Imagine where we'll be 3 years from now.

These people have an idea of what is a right way to live life, see trans as harmful, as lies and delusion.

Why should they 'not try to prevent their children from normalizing or being indoctrinated by it?

Of course it follows that one wouldn't want their children following in what they believe to be wrong, my point is that the defense of the children is what follows, it is not the motivator which is often what they portray. That’s the dishonesty I’m calling out. Don’t claim this is about protecting children when it’s really about your discomfort with gay or trans people. If that’s your stance, own it. Don’t wrap it in virtue or pretend it's about safety. Be honest about what you believe instead of hiding behind moral posturing. (Not you specifically)

"A sanctuary city is a municipality that limits or denies its cooperation with the national government in enforcing immigration law."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city

I wasn't asking for a definition. The why is the more important part. The reason these cities don't work with federal immigration is primarily for safety reasons. If undocumented immigrants believe they will be detained if discovered, they will not cooperate with police investigations or testify in court. They are also far more likely to flee if they get into a car accident.

"Signed an executive order telling states how to run their own elections (mandating voter ID)

These aren't "well maybe" kind of actions, these are all definitionally authoritarian, along with the other examples I provided earlier.

There is no reasonable doubt about his motivations. The pattern of behavior is clear and blatantly predictable, and there is no alternative narrative that explains them all, certainly not one at the least which the administration has provided."

Voter ID on it's face sounds a good policy to me.

Or at least 'some type of accountability, vote by mail for instance has one's registered address.

But I admit I don't know much about the voting process and accountability.

"You really seem comforted by the idea that his term will end and that will be it. Maybe that will turn out to be the case, but to think the system will hold simply because that's what we're used to is naive and wrongheaded."

. . . I suppose revolutions 'do happen in other countries,

Dictators sometimes seize power,

. . . But America seems mechanically designed 'against a single dictator taking power.

Seems socially, technology, and culturally 'motivated against such an occurrence.

I think we'll see a popular people's revolution before a dictator.

. . I think Trump is egotistical and selfish to such a degree, that Ideally it will be difficult for anyone to 'inherit his power, movement, style.

Though I 'really wish Republicans had united during his first term, against many of his actions.

. . . Even 'with his irritating erosion of good government oversight, I read history and see a 'lot of government actions I dislike.

We survived them, we'll survive Trump.

"I do share your belief that democracy will ultimately hold, but your comfort is deeply misplaced. And what's most remarkable to me is that we seem to agree that it will likely hold in spite of him, not because of him. That is remarkable, and I have no idea how you justify even having the temptation to vote for him knowing that."

It's a question of lesser evils.

There are a lot of Left ideas I dislike.

Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles

It 'could be shifting the Overton window.

But I think there are so 'many possible reasons.

Maybe it's a red herring to distract from the Epstein List.

Maybe he 'thinks this is the most effective method to clean up homelessness, crime, or illegal immigration.

I know we talk about Trumps lies and dishonesty, , But he's not necessarily divorced from a love of America or wanting to fix problems that 'he thinks exist. Whether they do or not.

Maybe he's just trying to show that he's following through on his campaign promises.

Maybe it's some budget loophole due to DC budget failure.

Though, I'm doubtful such would 'work.

In history I 'have heard of countries using soldiers for tasks other than war in peacetime.

Farming for instance.

Or construction.

Something I dislike about Trump, is my difficulty in assessing him.

Is he stupid? Intelligent? Cunning?

What does he 'want?

Does he 'have good self control?

Ability to keep secrets?

'Can he 'actually plan anything in detail and depth?

Voter ID on it's face sounds a good policy to me.

That's exactly the problem, and it's becoming really clear to me why you think there’s nothing to see here, you don’t put anything in context.

This has nothing to do with whether voter ID is good or bad, it’s entirely about the fact that the president of the United States, purposefully, has no place in deciding how federal elections are run. The constitution left that power to the states and anyone who cares anything about how our democracy works would not only accept that but champion it.

That, coupled with the fact that this is the same guy who has already tried to steal the prior election shows very clearly what this is about, and it’s not voter ID. It’s the same thing as him directing Texas to redistrict mid decade, yet another thing that was unthinkable a year ago. He is brick by brick eroding our democracy and setting up to rig 2026, and you’ll just sit there with each brick parroting his excuses for why that brick must come down with no awareness of the fact that the building is disappearing.

Dictators sometimes seize power,

. . . But America seems mechanically designed 'against a single dictator taking power.

Like I said before, the constitution doesn’t enforce itself, nor does it account for every possibility. It’s just a piece of paper, it’s us that has to ensure it is enforced and that requires us to care when things like Trump’s brick by brick encroachment into dictatorial power occurs. Other democracies, despite being designed against dictatorship fell exactly because of people like you excusing one encroachment after the other.

What has protected the United States so strongly against dictatorship was not our laws, but rather our norms. The ideals of our constitution have been baked into American culture. What makes Trump so fundamentally dangerous is that he is changing American culture by challenging every single norm and concocting ridiculous conspiracy theories to support it. Democracy only holds so long as the people demand it, his attacks are designed to ensure people don’t, and he’s got almost half the country behind almost anything he does.

We survived them, we'll survive Trump.

But you’ve given no reason why you believe this. You’ve only implied “cause history”, which ignores all of the examples of democracies that have fallen.

Americans are just human beings, we’re no better or different that Italy or Germany in the 1930’s, or today’s Hungarians. As soon as you think it can’t happen, that’s exactly when it can.

It's a question of lesser evils.

Yes I know that, when you’re running on a platform of retribution that’s the only argument you have, which is exactly why Trump is do damaging. He can’t sell his ideas cause he doesn’t have any, so he just has to vilify democrats, further dividing the country. It’s all he’s got, it’s the only reason republicans win anything.

There are a lot of Left ideas I dislike.

Probably, mostly the ones you hear about in right wing media

Maybe he's just trying to show that he's following through on his campaign promises.

Maybe it's some budget loophole due to DC budget failure.

It’s just excuse after excuse.

Again, he’s not sending troops into the areas where crime is happening, he’s sending them to the areas where the cameras are.

Again, he’s not sending them into the cities where crime is the worse and where they would be welcomed, he’s sending them into the areas he sees as politically adversarial.

This is clearly not about crime, at best it’s just about owning the libs to appease his base, but it’s beyond unreasonable to accept as unlikely that this is primarily about increasing his own power in a dress rehearsal for what he plans to do in 2026 and even 2028.

Not a single thing we know about this man tells us he will restrain himself in that regard for the good of the country. Nothing. So of you’re not counting on his good patriotic putting the country over himself mindset, I’d really love to know who you are so confident in to stop him.

Something I dislike about Trump, is my difficulty in assessing him.

Is he stupid? Intelligent? Cunning?

What does he 'want?

Does he 'have good self control?

Ability to keep secrets?

'Can he 'actually plan anything in detail and depth?

Yeah, that’s his superpower, and is the point of the Sam Harris point I quoted before. The steam generated by each flaw has made it so the entire room of full and none of them can be seen. When he does anything he gets a pass because there’s always a plausible excuse. The problem is that none of these excuses line up with the other.

It really can be all of the above. Or at the least, that is the only rational response one can take. Trump has shown us who he is, believe him.

"The constitution left that power to the states"

I don't think the 'Executive 'Order is going to stick for Voter ID, but Trump urging Congress and so on to pass it, might be Constitutional.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-will-order-voter-id-requirement-every-vote-2025-08-31

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_black_exclusion_laws

Ever since the Civil War, states lost so much power. Some might argue the loss of an amount of state power was a good thing.

"What has protected the United States so strongly against dictatorship was not our laws, but rather our norms."

I'd agree norms are a large part of what has protected America.

I wouldn't say I'm 'excusing each encroachment after another.

I just think people opposing Trump often oppose him in the wrong way.

His entire two presidencies have felt a mishandling of the situation by Democrats, though I'm not wild with how Republicans handled it either.

I also think government is 'constantly throughout history toeing the line of what is constitutional, if not frequently overstepping it.

Degree of cynicism.

"Italy or Germany in the 1930’s"

I think Italy and Germany had monarchs in WW1.

They can hardly be compared to America after some 200 years of Democracy.

Opposition to tyrants and dictatorships is very American culture.

We're on a large landmass with just two neighbors.

Unless we get defeated in war, nuked, or have a huge demographic change I don't see any Dictator coming.

If one 'did appear, I think they'd get assassinated pretty quick.

Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles

"It’s just excuse after excuse."

I wouldn't say 'excuses, I'd say theories.

I don't know what is going on in Trumps head, or behind closed doors in small meetings.

I think people attribute only the worst of intentions to Trump,

Accuse him of being a moron, yet often assume him to have intelligent plans or understanding.

Myself I can't tell.

" I’d really love to know who you are so confident in to stop him."

Various courts, politicians, protests.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets impeached again eventually, and removed from office this time.

I am okay with taking away Rosie O'Donnel's citizenship

I don't think the 'Executive 'Order is going to stick for Voter ID, but Trump urging Congress and so on to pass it, might be Constitutional.

Again, that’s not the point. You continue to focus on what Trump wants you to focus on while he continues to erode our democracy. This is exactly why it works.

No, it’s not going to stick, but it will provide Trump the pretense he needs to be able to claim that our elections are under assault and no one else is doing anything about it, so he’s the only one who can save us all. And he’ll use that pretense to send the DOJ and military into American cities, which he’s already gotten us used to so no one will flip out when it happens.

I know you’ve said many time you don’t pay that close attention, which is why everything I’m saying sounds over sensationalized, but you would benefit to take a gloss through world history to recognize that this is exactly how it always happens, with people like you asleep at the wheel.

I just think people opposing Trump often oppose him in the wrong way.

His entire two presidencies have felt a mishandling of the situation by Democrats

This isn’t about political strategy, it’s a question of how do you stop a tyrant who knows what buttons to push to get people to let go of their democracy brick by brick. The only real answer is education, but you can’t educate people who don’t want to be educated. That’s the conundrum democrats face.

Politically, I’m not crazy about the way democrats have dealt with him either, but in their defense there really is no way to respond to Trump. He lies about everything, all the time. If you fact check him, you’re legitimizing the absurd things he’s claiming as worthy of debate. If you don’t, you’re conceding them. If you call him out for what he really is, you get branded as overly dramatic (Trump derangement syndrome), if you don’t, you fail to call him out for the danger he truly is.

This is the problem with electing a fundamentally unserious person into the most serious job on the planet. The problem is not the democrats, it’s Trump and every person who voted for him.

Opposition to tyrants and dictatorships is very American culture.

And Trump is changing that culture. Again, this is what makes him so uniquely dangerous. They’re literally selling Trump 2028 T shirts at his rallies.

Unless we get defeated in war, nuked, or have a huge demographic change I don't see any Dictator coming.

Because that’s not how it works. Dictators don’t just appear. They don’t just march into the Oval Office and declare themselves unilaterally in charge of the government. They take power brick by brick until people one day wake up and realize that building that used to be there is gone. Please read some history.

I think people attribute only the worst of intentions to Trump,

Accuse him of being a moron, yet often assume him to have intelligent plans or understanding.

Myself I can't tell.

Because you’re acting as if these are all or nothing propositions. Trump is a moron, that is not reasonably debatable. But that doesn’t mean he has no qualities about him that equip him to carry out such a terrible feat, and you’re also disregarding the fact that it’s not him carrying out any complex plan, that is left to the people around him.

There is a reason that education directly correlates to anti-Trump sentiment, which is especially noteworthy given that the Republican Party is objectively better for the more educated in terms of economic policy. In short, Trump appeals to stupid people, so it doesn’t take much genius to rile them up behind him.

Various courts, politicians, protests.

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets impeached again eventually, and removed from office this time.

There is no sign anywhere that today’s Republican Party will support trumps removal and every sign that they will lay over for him.

The courts is not a serious answer. They do not command an armed force. All they have are the US marshals, which are part of the DOJ, which literally means they report to Trump.

Protests? Again, not a serious answer. Democrats have been protesting since 2017.

Politicians? which ones? Certainly not republicans.

The only things that give me comfort are the fact that Trump is so old he probably will die or become severely diminished by 2028, and the fact that he’s such a moron he’s overstepping, including destroying our economy with his incredibly stupid and self destructive tariffs. In order for the worst to come to pass he would need to remain at least nominally popular, now that he doesn’t have adults surrounding him anymore he can’t help but show the country how terrible he is. It’s just a question of whether they’ll listen.

brick by brick

Bricks get removed, fall off, get replaced.

We've a blueprint of America, an ideal we work towards and can always 'eventually get back towards.

An eternal star in the sky, by which to set our course. Until it blows up some day.

I'd rather have bricks removed by people whose ideals line up more with my own,

Than have bricks removed by people whose ideals are different than my own.

Though I'd rather no bricks get removed.

They’re literally selling Trump 2028 T shirts at his rallies.

Big deal, I doubt there's enough such individual to matter. Most normal people would see it as a gag.

If Trump 'did try getting elected a third time, I doubt he'd live through it.

Old age of course, and other unstated reasons.

Please read some history.

I 'have read 'some history, though it's possible I've focused more on the obvious and sudden Dictators and their moments in history.

Trump has no Night of the Long Knives. No October Revolution, no outside powers intervening 'militarily for a coup.

Though I am 'aware of gradual steps as well.

And I am aware of January 6th, though I think people blow it out of proportion.

America, generally speaking is a stable state and society, the bricks will be replaced in time.

But that doesn’t mean he has no qualities about him that equip him to carry out such a terrible feat

Of course he has qualities and people that he 'could carry out X or X feat.

But that doesn't mean he did X or will do X.

Besides X, isn't as worrisome to some people as a Liberal X.

Even 'Biden has qualities and people, and potential.

Impeached again eventually, and removed from office this time.

I don't think all Republicans like Trump, or will support him in all things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_opposed_the_Donald_Trump_2024_presidential_campaign

I vaguely recall judges and courts 'constantly opposing various actions of Trump.

Whether Supreme Court or State Judges.

Just because the President pushes for certain ends, doesn't mean states always obey.

Nor even cities or individuals to state laws.

Democrats are 'always protesting.

Often nonsensically.

When the issue 'really matters, the protest will matter and be acted on.

World of politics existed before Trump, still exists separate of him, will exist after him.

How about Trump who promised a unified Reich?

We've a blueprint of America, an ideal we work towards and can always 'eventually get back towards.

Germany eventually got their democracy back.

I'd rather have bricks removed by people whose ideals line up more with my own, Than have bricks removed by people whose ideals are different than my own.

Why are you even pretending this is representative of the choices before you?

Besides X, isn't as worrisome to some people as a Liberal X.

The difference is that “Liberal X” is made up horseshit. There is no threat of liberals collapsing American democracy, that’s straight up right wing propaganda to an absurd degree.

Big deal, I doubt there's enough such individual to matter. Most normal people would see it as a gag.

And yet again, you miss the entire point.

The fact that these shirts are selling at his rallies is a clear demonstration of his values. No president who cares about preserving American democracy would allow stuff like this to go on without at the very least condemning it, especially when it is a very prominent attack against the administration.

You are the reason American democracy is in danger, its people like you who look at everything as if it occurred in isolation, with no broader context attached while relying on some notion of democratic norms to be our savior while the current administration torches them.

And I am aware of January 6th, though I think people blow it out of proportion.

Because you probably compartmentalize it like you do everything else this man does.

Let me guess… all he did was give a speech? He said fight a bunch of times, but democrats say it all the time? How was he supposed to know all those crazy people would ransack the capitol?

I don't think all Republicans like Trump, or will support him in all things.

He literally incited a mob to attack them and they still wouldn’t convict him. Senate republicans are not going to save us.

I vaguely recall judges and courts 'constantly opposing various actions of Trump.

Ok. And when Trump decides to ignore them, what happens next? You tell me.

When the issue 'really matters, the protest will matter and be acted on.

By then it will be too late, that’s the whole point.

Here is a video I would like you to watch, it’s only like 6 minutes. It’s a bit outdated but I actually think that’s a good thing here. Take note of the examples they use and what they’re pointing to as cause for concern, and take good note of just how boring and benign those examples have become. That right there, is exactly what the video is talking about. If these people had a crystal ball and could mention the things Trump has actually done today as possible examples they would have been told they’re being unrealistic and dramatic.

https://youtu.be/pF-Tdsvk0tI?si=-kB9axnlJn0iIS5A

Bricks

"Why are you even pretending this is representative of the choices before you?"

I wouldn't say I'm 'pretending, it's the way I see it.

I think slowly over the last ten years or so, I've drifted Right.

It's 'possible I'm delusional, but I doubt it.

It's not as though I 'like Trump, and I must admit a worry that he'll inadvertently sabotage and make unpopular values that I like.

. . . Some people just 'really don't like the Left.

A single example is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

"The difference is that “Liberal X” is made up horseshit. There is no threat of liberals collapsing American democracy, that’s straight up right wing propaganda to an absurd degree."

I don't think either party is a significant threat to collapsing American Democracy 'immediately.

. . . I don't like liars and loopholes, but I generally think of 'most politicians that way.

'Other values and platforms matter more to me.

Ideally after a bit of time we can push back on the lying and poor cooperation between parties.

What I want to avoid, is Leftist policies being normalized to politicians or society.

"The fact that these shirts are selling at his rallies is a clear demonstration of his values. No president who cares about preserving American democracy would allow stuff like this to go on without at the very least condemning it, especially when it is a very prominent attack against the administration."

Trump is a crass businessman and opportunist.

Whether it's a physical coin being sold on TV or a Bitcoin, I've seen him peddling such.

Doesn't mean he will get or even 'try for a third term.

What I see is just the crass businessman. I don't see a 'serious Dictator attempt.

Judges

"Ok. And when Trump decides to ignore them, what happens next? You tell me."

I don't know 'exactly, I'm not finding any decent answers online.

Might lead to another 'first in American history.

https://www.lubbockonline.com/story/opinion/columns/guest/2019/03/03/its-debatable-can-president-ignore-order-from-us-supreme-court/984915007

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/what_would_happen_if_trump_ignored_a_court_order_law_profs_consider_the_iss

https://www.fjc.gov/history/administration/judicial-review-executive-orders

But I'm pretty sure Trump is 'frequently being prevented in this or that action by judges and courts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/trump-overruled

It's annoying that Trump uses the court system so much,

But generally when ruled against, he gets slowed and stopped I'd think.

Video,

Fair points, change is often minute, slow, hard to see immediate moment to moment.

'Perfect online documentation of objective information often hard to find.

But what you worry about Trump and the Right, slowly changing the country, other people worry about the Left.

What I see is just the crass businessman. I don't see a 'serious Dictator attempt.

Yeah, that’s the problem I’ve been pointing to this entire conversation.

There is nothing Trump can do to get you to see what he is. this is the fundamental problem with electing an unserious person to the most serious job on earth, people like you will confuse his lack of seriousness for a lack of seriousness in what he is doing to us.

To recap, Trump is

Putting the military on American streets of cities he doesn’t like (because they voted against him) and days ago posted that he will be going to war with an American city,

Sending masked plain clothes agents all over the country to round people up based on their skin color and disappear them with little to no due process

Using state power to punish law firms who represent clients unfavorable to his agenda

Using state power to punish educational institutions he doesn’t like

Using the FTC to bully news organizations into favorable coverage of him

Ordering the Justice department to go after his political enemies

Pardoning en masse people who have committed political violence on his behalf and also people who have donated to his political campaign

Overrode all of the rules put in place to ensure federal agencies were not politicized, and fired all of the people whose literal job it was to investigate and report corruption within his administration

Issuing loyalty tests before hiring anyone to work in the federal government

But right, this isn’t a serious attempt to turn America into an authoritarian state where everyone answers to him. And after he’s done purging the federal government of anyone who might dare stand up to him, I am sure this man will gracefully step to the side in 2029 and welcome his democratically elected replacement with no attempt to claim a rigged election like he already did, and try to stay in power like he already did. Cause he would never do such a thing. And if he did, I’m sure his sycophantic officials will all stand up and tell him that’s not how the constitution works.

When you weaponized government you open that door. So no we don't have to keep taking punches and never punch back. Maybe after this term if you guys can promise to stop being evil than we can stop using your own tactics against you

As previously mentioned, we are giving serious thought to taking away Rosie O’Donnell’s Citizenship. She is not a Great American and is, in my opinion, incapable of being so

Besides the fact that after how the government was weaponized against trump he should get a free pass, this is quite obviously a joke

My problem with the recap in #27 is that there are so many, and I have disagreements and nuanced view on perhaps 'all of them.