Chicago Apartment Raid

What's your solution if a foreign gang takes over an apartment building for years and the local government is too afraid/incompetent/complicit to do anything about it? Just accept it as a new normal?

 So I assume then that you support Chicagoans arming themselves and getting ready to shoot down federal agents?

America has the ultimate freedom to FAFO.

What's your solution if a foreign gang takes over an apartment building for years and the local government is too afraid/incompetent/complicit to do anything about it? Just accept it as a new normal?

You are saying attacking apartment buildings that don't have any foreign gang members, only citizens, is a solution to that problem?

Please explain the MAGA logic where that isn't stupid as shit.

I don't know if there were actual foreign gangs in the apartment block or not. I was just asking how you would deal with it if the problem goes on for years unaddressed like the 1930's mafia problem you guys had... if I recall your history correctly, only the federal law could ultimately remove that kind of problem. And wasn't Chicago the birthplace of all that?

What's your solution if a foreign gang takes over an apartment building for years and the local government is too afraid/incompetent/complicit to do anything about it?

Then the federal government would need a warrant for each individual apartment they raided. Not only have we not seen any evidence of this, administration officials have yet to even claim they obtained one.

Following the raid, the administration should acknowledge the grotesque violation of rights that was just committed and make a massive effort to assure the pubic that this was necessary. They've done nothing of the sort. All they've done is scream "Tren de aragua!" and pretend we're all supposed to be satisfied. That's absurd. It's right on par with what Russia does when a public official critical of Putin "falls out of a window". It's not meant to be sincere, it's meant to intimidate. The lack of transparency is the point.

I don't know if there were actual foreign gangs in the apartment block or not.

Exactly, neither do any of us. Even if they provided an airtight case tomorrow the delay would still be unacceptable.

I was just asking how you would deal with it if the problem goes on for years unaddressed like the 1930's mafia problem

Immigration is just the latest right wing boogeyman created to justify rights violations such as this. It works because people like yourself are perfectly fine with being too dumb to see how you're being manipulated.

So you think foreign gangs don't exist in your country? You guys are into all sorts of tinfoil....

Then the federal government would need a warrant for each individual apartment they raided. Not only have we not seen any evidence of this, administration officials have yet to even claim they obtained one.

From the little I know, the prosecutors of your laws involving things like child sex trafficking usually release warrant information right after the grand jury indictments to make sure the public isn't prejudiced. If the kids you saw being zip-tied were a part of the process of isolating them from their captors, they will probably redact those names in the released court documents to protect them from your crazy fringes who exploit people for political reasons through doxxing and other means of a different layer of exploitation.

USA isnt a country of freedom. You legally shouldn't be able to arrest anyone without clear evidence of them violating others. USA maybe has some free speech, but cops can literally arrest you at random if they have any random suspicion or if you dont comply with even clearly unjustified orders. Basically cops get to be bullies, and if you stand up to them, they shoot you or tie you down.

So you think foreign gangs don't exist in your country? You guys are into all sorts of tinfoil....

Yeah, caricatures are normally quite stupid.

Perhaps next time you'd care to comment on positions we've actually stated.

If the kids you saw being zip-tied were a part of the process of isolating them from their captors, they will probably redact those names in the released court documents

Irrelevant to the thread. *If* they were being trafficked, that would make the situation much better, still does not address the American citizens who did nothing wrong being dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night at gunpoint by federal agents. Strange how you still have nothing to say about that.

Trump said the enemy is within. Trying to shutdown the enemy within is another route to the Nobel peace prize he so coverts..

USA isnt a country of freedom.

Well thanks for admitting that. That's progress, I guess...

America hasn’t made any progress toward freedom after the civil war.

still does not address the American citizens who did nothing wrong being dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night at gunpoint by federal agents. Strange how you still have nothing to say about that.

I did say something about it. The kids need to be accounted for and questioned along with the adults. Even adults could have been victims. That's why you detain them all and sort it out. Think of it like a bank full of hostages. You don't just let everyone go right after you storm the bank. You can scream "mah rights" all day long, but your laws allow for detaining and questioning. That's the price you have to pay to live in a law and order society. The major risk of continued crime and victimization overshadows the minor inconveniences of detaining and questioning. Your courts have been very clear on that since before the days of Hoover and organized crime in Chicago around 1930. Immediate and long term safety will always take priority over any short-term civil discomfort. It's also why you guys went so long taking your shoes off at airports....

The extreme example of a free society with full civil rights is basically anarchy. Like I guess parts of Chicago are with the normalized murders and gang violence?

Benjamin Franklin once said: “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

But the inverse of that is also true: “Those who would give up essential Safety, to purchase a little temporary Liberty, deserve neither Safety nor Liberty”

You can scream "mah rights" all day long, but your laws allow for detaining and questioning.

No, it doesn't, not at the level actuated in this example.

The federal government does not get to raid first and ask questions later, that's why we have a 4th amendment:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Living in a "law and order society" does not require us to surrender our rights, it means government officials have to work a little harder to ensure they are targeting people who are likely involved in wrongdoing, not throwing a massive dragnet and then claiming the bad ones within the group justify tangling up all the innocent people in it as well.

This is really basic stuff. And if you were dragged out of your bed at gunpoint at 1am for the crime of living in the same building as alleged gang members you would not be singing the same tune as you head back to your trashed, broken windows, door-less apartment.

See the bank example.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Exactly, nowhere are people protected from all searches. Your courts have always allowed things like the bank example under the “exigent circumstances” and “protective sweep” doctrines..

This is really basic stuff...

Ah, there it is. The good old standby for weak debaters: oversimplification. I’d appreciate it if we could avoid the usual “common sense” tropey bit about how everything’s so simple and hunky dorey. Life’s a little more complicated than that, don’t you think?

I think part of the problem is that maybe this is not all that 'new a problem.

It 'does sound like a problem, but I don't think it's a 'new problem that Trump is 'suddenly to blame for.

I don't have good statistics on the problem,

I don't have good perspective with other statistics,

Or how I should interpret the statistics.

It 'has long sounded a problem to me,

I 'am anti immigration in general, not good to have too many people suddenly.

Not good to have illegal people.

. .

I 'am for guns, and partly that we can resist the government. I 'do find it difficult to know when they should be used to uphold freedom.

But I am thinking 'worse situations that no knock warrants.

No knock warrants can still be fought legally and through protest.

I don't see why we 'should ever give up our guns though,

There are worse states of the country that can come about,

And I think our having guns is instrumental in preventing or reversing such.

1972

"An eight‐week investigation by The New York Times—con sisting of interviews with vic tims of the raids, policemen and narcotics agents—has shown that, contrary to pub lished reports and some Gov ernment assertions, the recent illegal drug raids on two Col linsville, Ill., families were not isolated incidents.

In fact, during the last three years, mistaken raids have been made by narcotics agents on all government levels, often acting on uncorroborated tips from informers.

Such incidents have resulted in at least four deaths, includ ing one policeman slain when a terror‐stricken innocent wo man shot through her bedroom door as it burst open. In Cali fornia one innocent father was shot through the head as he sat in a living room cradling his infant son."

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/06/25/archives/violent-drug-raids-against-the-innocent-found-widespread-viole-at.html

1999

"Mena was shot and killed by SWAT team officers as they entered his home to search for illegal drugs. No drugs were ever found."

https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/no-knock-warrant-resulting-denver-mans-death-should-not-have-been-issued-aclu-says

2008

"In July 2006, I wrote the Cato White Paper Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids, a study of 180 botched raids. Since that paper came out, there have been a couple dozen more botched raids. The raids themselves are not rare occurrences. One criminologist says they occur to 40,000 to 50,000 people per year in this country. The vast majority of those are to serve drug warrants, and the vast majority of those are to serve warrants on nonviolent offenders."

https://www.cato.org/policy-report/november/december-2008/should-no-knock-police-raids-be-rare-or-routine

2009

"He's the mayor of a small town called Berwyn Heights in the Maryland suburbs just outside of Washington, D.C. One day last July, after he walked his dogs, a county police SWAT team broke down his door, ransacked his house, tied up him and his mother-in-law and killed his dogs. And then, despite acknowledging that it was a mistake, they've refused to apologize. And now the mayor is trying to work with state legislators to raise awareness of just how SWAT teams operate and how often things like this happen."

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/101027932?ft=nprml&f=101027932

2015

"Cops do 20,000 no-knock raids a year. Civilians often pay the price when they go wrong."

https://www.vox.com/2014/10/29/7083371/swat-no-knock-raids-police-killed-civilians-dangerous-work-drugs

2020

"Fact check: Louisville Police had a 'no-knock' warrant for Breonna Taylor’s apartment"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/30/fact-check-police-had-no-knock-warrant-breonna-taylor-apartment/3235029001

2019

"The lead investigator in the wrong-apartment killing of an innocent man by a former Dallas police officer on trial for murder claimed on Wednesday that the officer did not commit a crime based on the totality of the evidence."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/lead-investigator-wrong-apartment-killing-officer-amber-guyger/story?id=65849617

2022

"818 S.W.A.T. deployments conducted across 11 states between 2010 and 2013, it was found that 62% were for drug searches; of those, 60% employed forced entry.

Police have the legal authority to execute search warrants, even if they aren’t required to announce themselves before entering. The U.S. Supreme Court has even upheld the constitutionality of no-knock warrants in certain circumstances. "

https://alec.org/article/examining-the-risks-of-no-knock-raids/#:~:text=There%20are%20an%20estimated%2020%2C000,in%20the%20U.S.%20each%20year.

2023

"I ‘Stood My Ground’ — but It Was the Police Raiding My House

Diamonds Ford thought she was shooting at an intruder when Florida cops raided her home without knocking. Then she was charged with attempted murder."

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/12/08/police-raid-no-knock-florida

Its part of the process. This is nothing new. Its just new for this generation and left leaning people.

If people are processed fairly, there is inconvience, yes. But after a week or 2 the mimimal inconvience is mitigated.

Unless you happen to be illegal.

And if you are fired from a job because of a government force attempting to enforce law, you can persue legal action against that company, or at minimum talk to the agency involved.

Your posts and history make it clear you dislike the republican party via trump.

You can find 1000 things wrong, but i wonder, can you find 10 things right?

Exactly, nowhere are people protected from all searches.

No one claimed this. What is wrong with you, can you read?

Your courts have always allowed things like the bank example under the “exigent circumstances” and “protective sweep” doctrines..

Google "unreasonable search and seizure". Then read the constitution.

Ah, there it is. The good old standby for weak debaters: oversimplification.

Some things really are that simple. What weak debaters do is obfuscate with strawman arguments and conspiracy theories.

Not one of the examples you listed is analogous to this. Every one of them in some way eludes to the raid being a mistake or based on bad intelligence. What happened here, as far as we so far know, was not botched, it was the point.

They raided an entire apartment building. There's no way they got a warrant which basically said "you may search every residence within the building", nor is it at all plausible to suggest they could have possibly had good reason to think everyone inside was part of some Venezuelan gang.

Everything we know about this, including what has been said by Trump admin officials suggests that they knew full well many innocent people would get caught up in this and didn't care. As one ICE officer put it when one of the residents complained about what they were doing to the kids..."fuck them kids".

That's the US government now.

Its part of the process.

Not according to the constitution.

This is nothing new.

See my previous post to leaning.

Your posts and history make it clear you dislike the republican party via trump.

My posts make it clear that I have very good reason to dislike Trump and the republican party.

You can find 1000 things wrong, but i wonder, can you find 10 things right?

President's don't deserve a medal for carrying out the very basics of their job duties and their oath to the constitution, that's what every American should demand as a bare minimum, and Trump cannot even meet that mark. So no, if the man cannot honor basic American principals like free speech, or the idea that half the country are not the enemy from within which you need to sick the military on, I couldn't care less to "find" anything to credit him with. The man is grotesquely unfit to hold this office.

All 3 of those posts were oversimplifications. No wonder you don't have any real solutions for anything.

As one ICE officer put it when one of the residents complained about what they were doing to the kids..."fuck them kids".

Dude, yet more tinfoil. None of that hyperbole is going to manipulate normal people. It's far more likely that one of the child sex traffickers said that than someone rescuing them.

Americans are unfit to pick a president to lead them. Proof of this is them electing Trump for a second term. And possibly a third term if possible.

"Not one of the examples you listed is analogous to this. Every one of them in some way eludes to the raid being a mistake or based on bad intelligence. What happened here, as far as we so far know, was not botched, it was the point."

Double_R #22

They're 'kind of similar.

I don't really care for sudden no knock raids in the middle of the night, mistaken or correct.

Though I suppose this raid might have been in the morning, and maybe not a no knock.

37 arrested in South Shore ICE raid, DHS claims it was targeting Tren De Aragua gang members

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/south-shore-chicago-ice-raid-dhs-tren-de-aragua-gang

City knew of squalid, unsafe conditions at South Shore apartments before immigration raid

https://cwbchicago.com/2025/10/report-city-knew-of-squalid-unsafe-conditions-at-south-shore-apartments-before-immigration-raid.html

I admit I prefer 'way more transparency and proof of actions being valid, which I have yet to seen.

I admit I think having secure borders is more important to me than deporting people already here.

. . . But I've not researched this story much.

Customs and Border Protection, the ATF and the FBI were all involved in the operation, which resulted in the arrests of 37 people, according to the Department of Homeland Security. A statement from the agency noted a preliminary review of the operation found that the 37 people arrested were undocumented and that subjects were “believed to be involved in drug trafficking and distribution, weapons crimes, and immigration violators.”

https://therealdeal.com/chicago/2025/10/03/inside-a-real-estate-fight-that-preceded-south-shore-ice-raid

Dude, yet more tinfoil.

Do you even know what that means?

None of that hyperbole is going to manipulate normal people. It's far more likely that one of the child sex traffickers said that than someone rescuing them.

This is just stupid. The "fuck them kids" line came from an eyewitness on the ground at the time of the raid. If you're going to just dismiss that out of hand with no evidence or reason to think it's made up no wonder you believe the stupid things you do.

Americans are unfit to pick a president to lead them. Proof of this is them electing Trump for a second term. And possibly a third term if possible.

Agreed, the problem is we have no alternative. We get the government we deserve. All I can do is hold onto hope that the next generation will be better than this one, history suggests that's most likely.

They're 'kind of similar.

No, there are similarities we can point to. That doesn't make them similar any more than I can claim Hitler and JD Vance are similar cause they both have facial hair.

When we talk about analogous examples, we're talking about examples that are similar with regards to the parts that matter. In the Chicago example, the (apparently) flagrant and purposeful disregard for human rights and constitutional protections is the point, and that cannot be said about any of your other examples. The context as well, with a president who has shown himself repeatedly to rely on intimidation tactics and retribution against people he sees as being against him cannot be ignored here either.

A raid like this one specifically would not have occurred under any other president in our lifetimes.

A statement from the agency noted a preliminary review of the operation found that the 37 people arrested were undocumented and that subjects were “believed to be involved in drug trafficking and distribution, weapons crimes, and immigration violators.”

Which means nothing coming from an administration that believes Portland is a war ravaged city and repeatedly tells us they're going after the "worts of the worst" as they round up farm workers and nannies.

This is just stupid. The "fuck them kids" line came from an eyewitness on the ground at the time of the raid. If you're going to just dismiss that out of hand with no evidence or reason to think it's made up no wonder you believe the stupid things you do.

I'm not doubting that might have been overheard, it's just far more likely the person saying that was a child trafficker, not a child rescuer.

Oversimplification seems to be the hammer you’re swinging at every nail on this site, hmm? Your curiosity seems kind of boxed in, what made you stop looking past the surface of most things?