The unchangeable left

Cool, dug into the link you provided as far as I can before I hit the inevitable pay wall. And yeah, I think you're missing a couple key points of the stuff you were reading.

That sort of introspection is actually likely the cause of them feeling no sense of identity and being sold a solution. Oddly enough studies do show that deep introspection is more likely to result in a less stable sense of identity, higher rates of depression and people not knowing themselves as well.

This makes sense while simultaneously not being the affirmation you want it to be. When we're self-reflecting internally, we're asking ourselves questions that challenge the assumptions we've been living our lives on. That's inherently going to make things less stable in the short term. If ALL you're doing is asking these questions, then you're correct in that it's not very healthy. The way out of that negative feedback loop, which is supported by the literature you provided, is to also seek external feedback, whether that's in the form of therapy or just finding people who have similar lived experiences as you and talking about it and what they did to fix these issues long term (for me it was both).

Studies find that those who are less likely to utilize introspection have a stronger sense of identity and actually know themselves better than those who think deeply about themselves.

I don't think that's what the link you provided is saying...at all.

 I trained myself to switch any why question to a "what" question.

This is still a form of introspection. More specifically it's internal self-reflection, as stated by your sources, which is one of two key components to healthy self-reflection.

Linking this back to trans-related issues, the link between autism and gender dysphoria is there - autistic people are just generally more likely to be self-reflective and, for those who decide to seek GAC, shows why such a sizable percentage of people who are autistic identify as queer.

And to respond to the idea that transitioning is the solution they're 'sold', all studies seem to point to the fact that the opposite is actually more likely to be true - that transitioning isn't the solution to their feelings. Studies show that, at max, ~13% of people who seek GAC decide to detransition and that the overwhelming majority of people who decide to detransition's reasons aren't that they no longer identify as transgender, but rather external pressures that are forcing them to either temporarily or permanently stop seeking GAC (https://www.verywellhealth.com/trans-health-in-people-of-color-5087608?utm_source=chatgpt.com). The actual regret rates of people who were not happy after seeking GAC is wildly lower - the highest I found is like 3%, but most have it at at most 1% (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41574245/) (https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b) (https://juliaserano.medium.com/spotting-anti-trans-media-bias-on-detransition-a9a782a46894). So it seems infinitely more likely that if transgender people are being sold on anything, it's that they're wrong for seeking help.

Wylted, I would encourage you to pause and critically think for a moment. We are talking about issues that are very specific to the transgender space. You are talking to a person who is transgender, has interacted with a wide variety of people who are also transgender, has talked to professionals who specialize in transgender issues, and has empirical studies to back up their points about said transgender-specific issues. I would ask that you don't just simply read what I'm saying and respond, but honestly consider that there might be merit to the things that I'm saying.

They aren't happier after getting surgery

That's been empirically shown to just not be reflective of reality. Virtually everyone who seeks gender affirming care is happier as a result, as shown by the studies of regret rates among those who have sought GAC.

if fact suicide rates go up significantly.

The fact that you're trying to link seeking GAC to an increase in suicide rates is borderline delusional and ignores the widespread discrimination that people who identify as transgender face in society. That's the reason that transgender people suffer from higher rates of depression/suicide - they've finally found an answer to their struggles and want to be happy for once in their lives, but are being told by wide swaths of society that they're wrong and are being barred from/discriminated against for trying to live their truth.

Not the way you are describing. The external feedback would come from attempting new things or putting yourself out there not finding support groups and going into echo chambers. You are more likely to find a sport you enjoy playing by playing a lot of sports than by thinking about what you would like to play.

1. Your own source disagrees with you.
2. What you're describing is not mutually exclusive from what I'm describing, largely as a result of you changing the contextual example. There's a gargantuan difference between finding the answer to what sport you should play and finding the answer as to why you don't feel like you belong in your own skin. Both can and do co-exist.

Psychology has linked autism to an unstable sense of identity and this is irrespective of the transgender element

Agreed.

We can say the unstable sense of identity comes from introspection and then they get pointed to a solution and we all want our problems solved right?

I would argue that people who are autistic are inherently more prone to unstable shifts in identity regardless of how much or how little introspection they do, but I don't think you necessarily disagree with that. I'm also not sure what point you're trying to make.

Also the conversation is starting to conflate different areas so it may be best to disengage or to separate the conversation a bit because It could get confusing for both of us.

I don't feel like the conversation is getting confusing. Is there anything I've said that I can clarify on?

The first point I made referred to a portion of transgenderism unrelated to our only tangentially related to transgenderism that comes from our is largely influenced by an unsteady sense of identity.

Can you clarify this a bit? The grammar was...uhhh...challenging to parse through.

1. Self hatred

2. Sexual perversion

3. Confused gay kids being taken advantage of by an ideology

Now number 2 is not really a problem.

It very much is a problem, but not in the context that we're talking about (chasers very much do exist, as well as the fetishization of transgender identity. Both are extremely harmful to trans people), so I'm fine leaving this aside.

Number 1 had now went from being 80% is cases to maybe 40% . Number 2 went from 20% to 5% and this now leaves 55%

Do you have a source for these numbers?

So hopefully we can agree that one and two exist but that we are limiting the conversation to number 3 [Confused gay kids being takena advantage of by an ideology].

I categorically reject the phrasing you use to describe the issue, but yes that is the scope of our discussion.

I guess to be more specific, I would say that 3 is really just 1 in a trench coat.

Focus on the successful cases. They are the ones that count. The others were miserable anyways.

Focus on the successful cases. They are the ones that count. The others were miserable anyways.

No because people who object to giving people GAC are going to point to the cases where it didn't help, so it's important to acknowledge and address them while reminding them that the cases where people de-transition are very much in the minority. And even for those people who it is the solution for, it might not always be the correct choice to make in the moment (trying to take HRT in a hostile home environment, for example, is asking for trauma). But for people who have seriously spent time considering this and the implications of what their life would likely look like if they were to follow it, it is very much an option that should be available.

But for people who have seriously spent time considering this and the implications of what their life would likely look like if they were to follow it, it is very much an option that should be available.

There is growing debate over GAC, with some critics pushing for bans on reversible and irreversible procedures for minors, while others advocate for access to care. Research indicates that GAC can reduce gender dysphoria and improve mental health outcomes. 

Good bot.

It’s better than a citation and it’s free.

I would urge these people to love themselves. If you were born a male, you might see the disadvantages or you may have some level of self hatred but I urge you to love yourself. There is nothing wrong with you how you were created and no amount of self mutilation is going to make you happy no matter how strong that Ikea effect (Google it) actually is.

Well said. they need to stop with self-harm.

I am aware of these studies, which is why I didn't challenge you on them. I am pointing out a distinction between regret and general overall happiness. The IKEA effect I am using to explain the lack of regret and the high suicide rates (that are highest post surgery) to help support my argument of lower levels of happiness.

1. Is this the IKEA effect you're talking about? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect#) If so, not only am I seeing no relevance to the discussion at hand, but especially not seeing anything that would justify an increased suicide risk in transgender individuals post-surgery.
2. Fine, you want specifically talking about happiness? That's easier.
3. A meta-analysis of 55 studies show that 93% of the studies indicate a clear positive impact to transitioning, including a decreased risk of suicide and depression/other mental health issues, (https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people)
4. These studies also show that the primary limiting factor to this happiness (as well was the reason for higher rates of mental health challenges/suicide) is the stigmatization/discrimination of transgender individuals, and that receiving GAC mitigates these risks.
5. An even larger meta-analysis of studies, including studies that are more recent than the previous meta-study, show that people are satisfied with post-surgery results and show positive psychological and sexual impacts post-surgery (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9255096)
6. An even more recent study (2024) shows that surgery results in an increase across all aspects of quality of life (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13034-024-00794-0)

The reason for higher suicide rates post op cannot be from more discrimination as nobody can honestly tell the difference. The reason would have to do with something else and I believe I gave the most reasonable explanation.

1. This is hilarious given that the typical sentiment from the anti trans crowd is that they "can always tell".
2. Doesn't really account for the realization that most people who are seeking surgery are almost certainly out socially, so people who want to discriminate wouldn't have to be able to tell the difference.
3. So I think I found the study you're referring to that says that suicide risk is higher for those who go through surgery (https://www.psychiatry.news/2025-11-03-research-higher-suicide-risk-transgenders-post-surgery.html). The very glaring problem with it, though, is that it's comparing suicide risk among transgender individuals to suicide risk of the general population. I don't think I need to point out why that's a bad comparison to make.
4. Interestingly enough, there's also pretty clear evidence that suicidal ideation is lower among transgender individuals that undergo surgery (https://www.them.us/story/trans-people-with-access-gender-affirming-surgery-better-mental-health-study). This specifically compares those who undergo surgery compared to those who want the surgery but do not undergo surgery/cannot undergo surgery.

I just worry I am tip toeing around highly specialized knowledge that would take so long to explain that you would lose interest in the conversation.

I'm a little concerned that you're starting to patronize me...

There are those who get sexual impulses around being in another genders body.

That's...not what I'm talking about. Chasers/people who fetishize transgender individuals are people who are sexually attracted to the idea of transgender individuals (i.e. woman with penis or man with vagina) and that is what we are reduced down to (that is to say that transgender individuals, to them, are strictly and solely woman with penis/man with vagina) and generally deny us any other aspect of personhood. I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad.

Additionally, I actively cannot recall meeting a trans individual who decided to transition because they were sexually aroused by the concept of having the opposite gentialia, and there's a pretty clear reason as to why that might be: not everything a person does in their life is sexually stimulating. The common barrier for entry that you're going to hear from any trans person is "Imagine that you're a [insert gender of preference], sitting in a doctors office filling out paperwork". If you think you would be happier filling out paperwork at the doctors office because you're a [insert gender of preference] instead of [insert current gender], that's the point where I'd encourage someone to look into transitioning. If someone were to ask me if they should transition and the reason they gave me is because they're turned on by the thought of being the opposite gender, I'd actively discourage them from transitioning.

Be respectful wylted, you are talking about the woman I love.

I don't think anyone thinks they can tell the difference pre and post on by looking at somebody's face.

You would think that's true...though it's less about pre-surgery/post-surgery and more trans/not trans.

How would cutting off your dick make people discriminate less. That's very silly. Can you explain how they came to that conclusion?

The claim isn't that it solves/reduces these harms, but rather mitigates them (i.e. It's easier for me to put up with other people's bullshit if I'm happier/more confident with my own self-image).

But also, it's harder for people to say that I'm not a girl if I've had breast augmentation surgery and am now rocking a b or c-cup, at least without them looking senile. Same thing with bottom surgery if I'm lounging by a pool in a bikini. The anti-trans crowd is always awfully curious what we have in our pants...

This study below seems to show the opposite, that suicide increases post surgery.

I mean...it literally says in the abstract that "Of the 23 studies that met the inclusion criteria, the majority indicated a reduction in suicidality following gender-affirming treatment". Like, you can critique the methodology if you'd like, and it goes into good detail about ways in which we can improve the methodology in the future, but to say that it's saying that suicide-risk increases is...a choice. Not to mention the bevy of other sources I provided that all say the same thing I'm saying.

They may not even be consciously aware of it tbh.

I mean, doesn't that defeat your point either way? Either they're aware of it and are transitioning for reasons that are morally questionable and, thus, are reasons that I would discourage, or they aren't aware of it and thus isn't factoring into their active decision making calculus?

That's really the only healthy reason to even consider it doesn't help change the self hatred or the unstable sense of identity other transitioners experience

Not only would I argue that transitioning for fetishistic reasons is the least healthy reason to transition, but I'd argue that transitioning is what fixes these "self hatred" and "unstable sense of identity" problems you like pointing to. The origin of a lot of these feelings of self-hatred and identity issues is rooted in the gender dysphoria that trans people experience, where they know that they're one gender, but looking in the mirror doesn't align with their self-view. Taking steps to correct this dysphoria has been shown, through anecdotal analysis and empirical study, to reduce these feelings of dysphoria and produce healthier mindsets.

how do you explain that transgenderism is so common among kids of hyper liberal parents,

So this is actually super easy to explain, but I'll address the end assumption in that transgender people don't only come from liberal backgrounds - while my own parents weren't hardcore conservatives, they are very far from liberal, and were even further away when I was an adolescent. My dad especially was extremely anti-trans when I was growing up, and it took me coming out as transgender for him to be open to the idea that being trans is okay, and even as things are now he still doesn't really understand it.

But to actually answer your question, it's just culture. The more conservative the upbringing, the more we're taught to repress/reject these feelings in order to align with more traditional modes of thought, which is heavily rooted in religious and historical precedent of what the role of the male and the female identity is supposed to be. It's only been within the past twenty to thirty years, with the increase public prevalence of LGBTQ+ individuals, that a lot of these mindsets and stigmas have been challenged, all of which have met very staunch resistance from more conservative schools of thought. So it makes sense that the less conservative someone's upbringing is, the more willing someone is likely to be to be open to exploring these feelings, and the safer they will feel in doing so of not being discriminated against for doing so.

And to respond to this idea specifically:

Gender affirming care is kinda a crazy concept in itself. A psychologist shouldn't be affirming a delusion.

The idea that this is a 'delusion' has historically and, in terms of the modern day debate, been the problem that trans individuals have had to combat in order to even seek help combating their dysphoria. It doesn't matter how well we can track dysphoria psychologically (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26835611/), nor does it matter that we're starting to get a better picture physically of the differences in body and brain development of people who tend to experience gender dysphoria compared to those who don't (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32801984/) (though this area of research is still ongoing, but initial findings do suggest that there are marked differences in body and brain development), all that matters is that we're different and different is bad to conservative and traditional modes of thinking. We just want to live our lives in peace, but until people can accept that our feelings aren't just 'delusional', that doesn't seem to be possible. Hence why this discussion is happening.

I haven't insulted Alyssa outside of a Mafia game where I was scum and had some incentive for making her think less rationally than she should.

I'll ignore the backhanded comments that I'm delusional for thinking/feeling the way I am that have come up over the course of our conversation for the purposes of this comment.

Pretty sure he was talking about your comment re: Salma Hayek with this reply.

I'm not interested in doing a formal debate on this topic given the inherently competitive nature of a debate being less about truth-seeking and more about winning. For obvious reasons, this topic is especially important to represent truthfully for me so I'll pass on this one. More than happy to keep talking here.

The doctors are being unethical as is society. As are these websites that come up presenting a solution to an unstable sense of identity by brainwashing an individual into thinking

I mean, at this point, if this is still something you believe despite the depth of anecdotal and empirical evidence I've provided that shows that this isn't the case, my only response is that someone is definitely being brainwashed here, but I don't think it's me.

You know the saying that "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"? This is me, leading you to water. Your choice whether to drink or not.

Had a church got ahold of you first

Funny you should say that. A church did get a hold of me first. I was a regular church-goer from middle school through most of high school and was very active in my church's youth group. And to give credit where credit is due, they were pretty accepting of people who wanted to get to know Christ better, regardless of who they were or where they came from. At this point, though, the repression of my own feelings re: my identity as a person was so ingrained that it took another decade for me to even be capable of asking the question of why I was never comfortable with myself, and by that point I had long since stopped going to church.