The unchangeable left

Started by RemyBrown

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#91 •••
@wylted

The barrier to entry for an argument in a competitive debate that a judge takes seriously is infinitely lower than an argument in a normal discussion that a person takes seriously. If I stand up in a debate round and read arguments for why we should allow nations to go to nuclear war and read a bunch of Jean Beadrillard's arguments for hyper realism, so long as I'm "winning" the argument, then judges accept it as true. If I stand up in a public discussion and say "we should let people go to nuclear war", then I'm promptly (and correctly) ignored and likely never invited back.


And it's less about digging deep enough and more about presenting the facts as faithfully and honestly as you can, which isn't the case with a competitive debate, where there is a definitive winner and loser and you're encouraged to not make yourself the loser, regardless of what points your opponent brings up.

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#92 •••
@wylted
That question is one most of us face and struggle with


Correct, and for the majority of people the answer is something other than a problem with the way they view their gender. Each person's struggles are unique to them and it's up to each individual person to seek out the answers that best fit their own experiences.

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#93 •••
@Alyssa
The barrier to entry for an argument in a competitive debate that a judge takes seriously is infinitely lower than an argument in a normal discussion that a person takes seriously

This is true but it also depends on the debate format. It's not really the META here, although maybe it could work. I think on this site, most debaters would have a pretty easy time arguing against someone who advocated nuclear war so long as they did put in effort to argue against it. (In written debates, the element of surprise counts for a lot less.) Plus, even if someone wins with the nuclear war argument, it's not like people can't look at the reasonable arguments made in the debate and learn more about the issue.


And it's less about digging deep enough and more about presenting the facts as faithfully and honestly as you can, which isn't the case with a competitive debate, where there is a definitive winner and loser and you're encouraged to not make yourself the loser, regardless of what points your opponent brings up.

On the other hand, this means both sides are incentivized to make the best case possible for their side and put in a lot more effort toward research than they probably would otherwise. Most trials have lawyers who are paid to argue for one side or the other, and their goal is to win by whatever (legal, usually) means necessary. Yet this is basically the best system anyone has come up with for determining guilt or innocence, and I think it does pretty well compared to most internet arguments.

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#94 •••
@wylted
I haven't insulted Alyssa outside of a Mafia game where I was scum and had some incentive for making her think less rationally than she should.


I was talking about Salma Hayek.

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#95 •••
@Sidewalker
⚠️ This comment has been marked as offensive.

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#96 •••
@Savant
On the other hand, this means both sides are incentivized to make the best case possible for their side and put in a lot more effort toward research than they probably would otherwise.


In a vacuum this is true. Contextually, however, I think I've made it clear that this matters a lot to me. As far as the quality of research I'm willing to do, the medium doesn't matter.

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#97 •••
@wylted
 said nothing about that Goddess that I would see as a negative thing


OK, good, just be careful when you are on such a sacred subject.



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#98 •••
@Alyssa
I think I've made it clear that this matters a lot to me. As far as the quality of research I'm willing to do, the medium doesn't matter.

That makes sense. If this is a topic you're willing to discuss, then there is a question I wanted to ask (and apologies if you've addressed this before and I missed it). Has less to do with empiricism and more to do with semantics.


It's my impression that trans people typically have a strong aversion to being called "man" or "women" on the basis of sex as opposed to gender. Yet I don't sense as much of an aversion to terms like "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth." Sex isn't strictly binary, but with the exception of intersex people, you can generally categorize people in to groups of mainly having female vs. male sex characteristics (to my knowledge, trans people don't really dispute this). More so pre-op vs post-op, but the point is that one could select some group of criteria they are going off of and then categorize sex based on that. It's kind of an arbitrary thing to categorize people off of, but so is the amount of melanin in one's skin, or how tall someone is, or the color of their hair. And it's still common to use words like "red-headed" or "tall" or "black" to describe people. Or even age, which like sex isn't easily observable but you usually just take someone's word for it.


So my question is: in your view, with regard to misgendering, is the aversion to sex categorizations being made in the first place, or just the terms "man" and "woman" being used? Like if people started using the terms "blargh" and "zog" instead of "man" and "woman," and blargh and zog referred to preponderance of particular sex characteristics, do you think most trans people would still be opposed to that?


I could speculate about this, but it seems like something someone more familiar with this topic would be more qualified to answer.

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#99 •••
@Savant

No problem! More than happy to discuss things.


Will preface by saying that things I say here are my own personal opinion that may or may not be reflective of the general feelings, but I can't claim to speak for all trans people.


It's my impression that trans people typically have a strong aversion to being called "man" or "women" on the basis of sex as opposed to gender. Yet I don't sense as much of an aversion to terms like "assigned female at birth" or "assigned male at birth."


Primarily because what some doctor defines us as the second we come out of the womb is not only obviously outside of our control, but it's also long before we have any real concept of self, so who are we to say that, from the instant we exit the womb that we aren't male or female? Given the population of people who identify as trans vs. the rest of the general population, doctors are right more often than they're wrong in terms of relating sex to gender, so they're just doing the best they can.


Sex isn't strictly binary, but with the exception of intersex people, you can generally categorize people in to groups of mainly having female vs. male sex characteristics (to my knowledge, trans people don't really dispute this). More so pre-op vs post-op, but the point is that one could select some group of criteria they are going off of and then categorize sex based on that. It's kind of an arbitrary thing to categorize people off of, but so is the amount of melanin in one's skin, or how tall someone is, or the color of their hair. And it's still common to use words like "red-headed" or "tall" or "black" to describe people. Or even age, which like sex isn't easily observable but you usually just take someone's word for it.


Correct. The problem lies in that people who tend to be anti-trans then take those sex-defining characteristics and conflate it with gender (i.e. you have penis, therefore you are guy) which isn't really how that works. Even categorizing people by sexual characteristics gets tricky if we were to include populations like intersex people (you were excluding them to make your statement, but even without them how does one classify a girl who lacks ovaries or a girl who possesses testes?)


So my question is: in your view, with regard to misgendering, is the aversion to sex categorizations being made in the first place, or just the terms "man" and "woman" being used? Like if people started using the terms "blargh" and "zog" instead of "man" and "woman," and blargh and zog referred to preponderance of particular sex characteristics, do you think most trans people would still be opposed to that?


It's not necessarily just strictly categorizing things by sex, though. Rather, it's conflating sex with gender that is the primary issue. If we wanted to specifically look at categorizing people by sex, I suppose you could say something along the lines of "Everyone who possesses a penis stand over here and everyone who possesses a vagina stand over here" (again ignoring intersex people for the purposes of the example), and (again, can't really speak for every transgender person out there), I don't think the average trans person would have too many issues with that (outside of general dysphoric feelings). That's strictly where that categorization would have to end, though - the second you try to go further than that is where misgendering typically begins. And given most people seem incapable of stopping there, that's where the issue lies most of the time.


So I guess to directly answer the question: If you wanted to replace penis with "blargh" and vagina with "zog", theoretically I don't see too many trans people having issue with it. In reality, though, it'd end up just being the new medium through which people conflate sex with gender, so it wouldn't change much.

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#100 •••
@Alyssa

So my impression is that there are basically three groups:


Group A (Sexist people) - This group basically wants to discriminate based on sex. I think regardless of what terms we use they're gonna say things like "people with vaginas should stay home and clean things." (But in effectively whatever vocab they would normally use.) And if they were stopped from doing that they would still discriminate based on gender and say things like "anyone who identifies as a woman should stay home and clean things." They see sex and gender as connected to social roles.


Group B (Normies) - This group isn't sexist and probably only makes generalizations as far as "people with XY chromosomes are on average stronger than people with XX chromosomes." They don't really understand gender beyond that the term was at one point was commonly used to describe sex and now it means something else. They don't see gender as connected to social roles.


Group C (Trans people/allies) - Doesn't want to be told what to do on the basis of sex and uses gender to describe something inherent to identity that is hard to describe in concrete terms. And will point to gender often being used in a different way than sex historically. They see gender as connected to social roles.


I think that Group C saw Group B using terms like "man"/"women"/"gender" to describe sex when Group C was using them to describe gender, and assumed that Group B was aligned with Group A. When I think Group B and Group C were just using different sets of definitions for things. Group A can be said to be conflating the concepts of sex and gender, while Group B is more so not using the modern definition of "gender" as its defined in sociology, probably because they aren't super familiar with sociology.


From what you're saying, I thinking the issue might be that whenever Group B and Group C agree on some term to describe sex, Group A comes in and uses the term to be sexist. And then by continuing to use the term, Group B would continue to be conflated with Group A, or at least seen as enabling them.


Is this broadly accurate in your view? Obviously neither of us speaks for everyone, but this is my impression. I might be oversimplifying things.

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#101 •••
@Savant

That's...hard to necessarily agree or disagree with. I think there's a lot of oversimplification going on if we want to stick with these three groupings, because there's a lot of ground for different positions and ideologies in between the groups.


I think there's also some ethical problems trying to categorize people into groups in this kind of manner, but that's straying a little too far away from the topic at hand.

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#102 •••
@Alyssa

Hmm...fair enough.

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#103 •••
@RemyBrown
Trump has not committed a Holocaust during his time as POTUS.


No one claimed he did, so what is your point?


If what you say occurs, then nobody will care. It's not like you can expect JD Vance to get executed. Who would execute him? Maybe short term embarrassment at best. But who cares about that?


If executions are all you care about then go back to playing call of duty.


I’m talking about how all these people surrounding Trump while pretending he is not a delusional bigoted childish ignorant narcissist will in time start telling us that they were really just honorable people who saw it the whole time and were fighting it from the inside.


The simple fact is that the only thing motivating these people is proximity to power, and once Trump is gone and that veneer is gone, no one left will be able to get away with the stupidity and vileness he made central to American politics. Right now Trump acts like a shield to these people, once that shield is gone they will scatter like roaches.


This matters because it speaks to what is happening right now. Right wing MAGA friendly news is nothing but propaganda and right wing voters are mostly living in a world of lies and bullshit. You will of course tell me I’m full of it, but when Trump is gone we’ll both watch as what I’m saying becomes more and more apparent over time just as it did in Germany.

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#104 •••
@Savant
So my question is: in your view, with regard to misgendering, is the aversion to sex categorizations being made in the first place, or just the terms "man" and "woman" being used?


I don’t think it’s an aversion, I think what you’re sensing it’s a response to being dehumanized. Many trans people don’t see themselves as fitting neatly into one of the two traditional categories, and those that do are well aware that the people limiting gender to only two options would place them in the opposite. So they’re basically being told that they either don’t exist, or are so delusional that they themselves don’t understand what category they fit into.


To your other question; whether they would accept a redefinition of the terms as you described depends on the intent. If it’s to maintain simplicity while being more inclusive then yes, if it’s a way of disregarding that these people exist, then no.

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#105 •••
So they’re basically being told that they either don’t exist, or are so delusional that they themselves don’t understand what category they fit into.


What's worse is that they are basically being told that even though they objectively have an xy or xx chromosome, they are not one of the biological sexes, and therefore not traditionally human.

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#106 •••
we’ll both watch as what I’m saying becomes more and more apparent over time just as it did in Germany


Germany eventually became a shithole after Hitler deranged people took over and implemented the long game plan. America doesn't need to repeat that mistake.


Is it really too much to ask people to not be extreme and deranged?



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#107 •••
@Double_R
To your other question; whether they would accept a redefinition of the terms as you described depends on the intent. If it’s to maintain simplicity while being more inclusive then yes, if it’s a way of disregarding that these people exist, then no.

I think there are a good chunk of people who have expressed they use the terms "man" and "women" to refer to sex in common parlance for simplicity while not denying that gender or internal sense of identity exists. So far as I can tell, that is still considered misgendering.

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#108 •••

Holy shit, this article isn't super relevant to any discussion at hand, but its too fucking good not to share.


https://theonion.com/it-is-journalism-s-sacred-duty-to-endanger-the-lives-of-1850126997/

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