Stoic Prince | Forum | DebateCraft

#1

I found this new concept of combining stoicism and machiavellism.

Stoicism is a lot about self control and detachment.

Machiavellism is about getting results.

But in many cases, self control and detachment bring results, hence the stoic Prince (combination of Machiavellism and stoicism).

The problem for Machiavelli is often miscalculation. If you place all focus on getting results as soon as possible, it is quite possible you rush and act too soon, and even ruin results.

The problem for stoicism is not enough focus on results.

The solution is a combination. You should focus on results, on achieving your goals, but you should also wait and be detached from those goals.

Stoic man simply doesn't care if he fails, and that is a big advantage which allows a more clear thinking. Machiavelli cares too much for success that it often seeks to get success as soon as possible.

Both are very strong goal oriented philosophies, which is why you need both. Stoicism teaches a lot of values which Machiavellism lacks. Machiavellism on its own appears more like some pure manipulator's calculation, while stoicism adds morality to the table, and adds more calm.

But both are correct in one thing: detachment is power.

Man who cannot truly fail in his goal is man who doesn't have a goal, or man who doesn't even care enough if he fails.

People are driven by love (their goals) and fear (negative things they want to avoid).

Stoic Prince should not be driven by love or fear in any real sense.

Fear nothing, love nothing, in any strong sense.

What you fear can be used to control you.

And what you love, can likewise be used to control you.

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I found this new concept of combining stoicism and machiavellism. Stoicism is a lot about self control and detachment. Machiavellism is about getting results. But in many cases, self control and detachment bring results, hence the stoic Prince (combination of Machiavellism and stoicism). The problem for Machiavelli is often miscalculation. If you place all focus on getting results as soon as possible, it is quite possible you rush and act too soon, and even ruin results. The problem for stoicism is not enough focus on results. The solution is a combination. You should focus on results, on achieving your goals, but you should also wait and be detached from those goals. Stoic man simply doesn't care if he fails, and that is a big advantage which allows a more clear thinking. Machiavelli cares too much for success that it often seeks to get success as soon as possible. Both are very strong goal oriented philosophies, which is why you need both. Stoicism teaches a lot of values which Machiavellism lacks. Machiavellism on its own appears more like some pure manipulator's calculation, while stoicism adds morality to the table, and adds more calm. But both are correct in one thing: detachment is power. Man who cannot truly fail in his goal is man who doesn't have a goal, or man who doesn't even care enough if he fails. People are driven by love (their goals) and fear (negative things they want to avoid). Stoic Prince should not be driven by love or fear in any real sense. Fear nothing, love nothing, in any strong sense. What you fear can be used to control you. And what you love, can likewise be used to control you.

#2

@SatanLucy

If— by Kipling

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too:

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;

If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim,

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

⁠And never breathe a word about your loss:

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

⁠Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

If all men count with you, but none too much:

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

⁠And—which is more—you'll be a Man, my son!

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If— by Kipling If you can keep your head when all about you    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,    But make allowance for their doubting too:If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,Or being hated don't give way to hating,    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise; If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim,If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster    And treat those two impostors just the same:If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools; If you can make one heap of all your winnings    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,And lose, and start again at your beginnings    ⁠And never breathe a word about your loss:If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew    To serve your turn long after they are gone,And so hold on when there is nothing in you    ⁠Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!' If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,    If all men count with you, but none too much:If you can fill the unforgiving minute    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,    ⁠And—which is more—you'll be a Man, my son!

#3

@Leaning

Wait, thats actually good text. Will save in my notes.

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