Gender equality seems like an untestable hypothesis

Started by Savant

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#1 •••
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#2 •••


The adult human brain contains an estimated 86 billion neurons (the cells that transmit electrical and chemical signals). Additionally, there are roughly 86 billion glial cells—the non-neuronal cells that support, protect, and nourish your neurons—bringing the total to approximately 170 to 172 billion brain cells.

Hmmmm, what could go wrong?

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#3 •••
@Savant
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#4 •••
@FLRW
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#5 •••
@SatanLucy


SatanLucy wrote:

FLRW wrote:

The adult human brain contains an estimated 86 billion neurons (the cells that transmit electrical and chemical signals). Additionally, there are roughly 86 billion glial cells—the non-neuronal cells that support, protect, and nourish your neurons—bringing the total to approximately 170 to 172 billion brain cells.
Hmmmm, what could go wrong?

A lot. It's reason why people with 70 IQ are as unequal as it gets to others. Low IQ isn't a choice not even one bit, but it sure as hell makes life of a person much worse and even makes person's decision making much worse, so despite person being able to choose, person is not able to choose with any high level of thinking. It's like a cat trying to figure out how TV remote works.


Life Is Hardest When You're Dumb

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#6 •••
@Sidewalker
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#7 •••


Life is hardest when you are dumb unless you are dumb and rich.

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#8 •••


Remember that if you are dumb and rich you can be President!

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#9 •••


Remember that if you are dumb and rich you can be President!

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#10 •••
@Savant
This isn't me saying that what people today call "gender equality" today is wrong, per se, just that what they're really advocating for is gender equality in cases when it makes sense, and at that point you may as well simplify things and just say "I support laws that make sense" rather than "I support gender equality."


Op is just a complaint about labels. Meh.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#11 •••
@SkepticalOne

More like definitions, which is the polar opposite of a label.

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#12 •••
@SkepticalOne
Op is just a complaint about labels. Meh.

Sometimes the labels are important because it means that people are ostensibly debating an issue, but are really just having an argument over defining things a different way. Or the argument someone is making is really for a vacuous truth ("we should have x in cases where x makes sense") rather than arguing for the position they actually disagree with people on. Or they do have policy disagreements, but these get overshadowed by the argument over definitions. To be fair, there are a lot of other issues I think this applies to as well (trans debates being the biggest one that comes to mind).

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#13 •••
@Savant

It doesn't really matter what it's called. If the argument is valid, it's valid. Objections to labels all to often favors the party with power, the aggressor, or the oppressor.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#14 •••
@Shoresy

Gender equality is well defined. It is the state in which access to rights, resources, and opportunities is not determined or limited by a person's gender.


OP isnt debating that. He is demonizing the term by attributing unserious biological comparisons, misunderstood issues, or ambigous debates where other factors play a role...

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#15 •••
@SkepticalOne
If the argument is valid, it's valid.

Sometimes they don't make an argument though. Sometimes they make a claim like "men are violent." And someone else makes a claim like "men are nice." And it sounds like they disagree, but when you press them, they actually agree on all the relevant statistics. The point is that these kinds of statements don't actually tell anyone where your disagreements lie.


It is the state in which access to rights, resources, and opportunities is not determined or limited by a person's gender.

Except even people who agree on gender equality disagree on what this means in practice. Should we have STEM programs exclusively for women, for example? Or a male-only draft? At some point people stop identifying good policies by what is the most equal, and start defining equality by whatever the most reasonable policy is. At which point, the principal of equality ceases to be useful for identifying the best policy. And it gets even harder to pin down when it comes to belief that genders are equal, because there are clearly differences in aggregate measures between genders. I don't even think men are all equal to each other. MLK was a lot better than Hitler.

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#16 •••
@SkepticalOne
Gender equality is well defined. It is the state in which access to rights, resources, and opportunities is not determined or limited by a person's gender.


Which can't feasibly happen even with all the surgery at our disposal. Because genders as defined are not equal. Gender equality is a definition that presumes a fictitious label of gender. A man doesn't need paid leave for menstrual cramps, for example, nor does he require access to those privileges or rights. His gender limits his access.


And Gender equality is often confused with gender equity, which is also completely unfeasible due to biological differences. See gender pay gap.

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#17 •••
@Savant

Race is also another label that isn't exactly defined. 73 years after Watson and Crick, and we still struggle with the distinction between biological reality and the labels we create. Phrenology has largely been discarded, yet debates about race often continue to treat broad social categories and cultures as though they were precise scientific biological definitions. Race itself remains impossible to define biologically in a clear, universally accepted way. Someone looking like x as a phenotype never translates to anything adjacent to phrenology. Watson and Crick definitively proved phenotypes can never justify conclusions about their intelligence, character, talents, or worth, either scientifically or socially. And yet society does exactly that, both politically and legally.

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#18 •••
@Savant

Also, the price paid by promoting all these untestable social experiments isn't the pride of some highly lettered and peer-reviewed researcher. It's the visible and alarming trend of the decline of the quality of child rearing, creating problems for society's youth that were never on the radar before all this social experimentation. People with power should be asking legitimate questions about the wisdom of implementing these large-scale social experiments long before their long-term effects are well understood, especially regarding children.

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#19 •••
@Savant
Except even people who agree on gender equality disagree on what this means in practice.


As is the norm in all things human.



At which point, the principal of equality ceases to be useful for identifying the best policy.


Nonsense. Confusion over the best way to apply a principle does not negate the principle.



And it gets even harder to pin down when it comes to belief that genders are equal, because there are clearly differences in aggregate measures between genders.


And that means men and women shouldn't have access to the same rights, resources, or opportunities? That does not follow.



I don't even think men are all equal to each other. MLK was a lot better than Hitler.



I dont think MLK would have agreed such comparisons were appropriate. He believed all humans were equal in dignity.





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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#20 •••
@Shoresy
A man doesn't need paid leave for menstrual cramps, for example, nor does he require access to those privileges or rights.


A woman doesnt need medical care for a prostrate exam, but both men and women need care. This isnt complicated...



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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#21 •••
@SkepticalOne
Confusion over the best way to apply a principle does not negate the principle.

It's not about applying the principle though, it's people disagreeing about what it means in the first place. We can't even agree on how to measure "equal," for example. And if its truth value changes depending on the situation, it's not really a principle anymore.


And that means men and women shouldn't have access to the same rights, resources, or opportunities? That does not follow.

I'm treating belief in gender equality and advocating for gender equality as two different things; I think believing groups are "equal" is probably the most fraught because you have to find a way of measuring/comparing the groups and then somehow it comes out to a tie.


Also men and women probably shouldn't have access to the same resources; women need tampons and support for pregnancy more than men do, because of obvious differences. So where do we draw the line? If there are biological differences in spacial reasoning or strength, that may mean different treatment in some cases. In which case, the distinction isn't necessarily between "gender equality is good" and "gender equality is bad," but "which specific circumstances merit equal treatment?" The devil's in the details. Because "only discriminate when it makes sense" isn't a hot take, even sexists agree with that. They just think it makes sense in more cases.


A woman doesnt need medical care for a prostrate exam, but both men and women need care. This isnt complicated

Which means there's no longer a clear line between gender equality and non gender equality. In the past people would have said "men and women both contribute to society in different ways, therefore women should have to stay at home and cook." I disagree with that reasoning, but I can't just use the blanket logic "it's always unfair to treat men and women differently" when there are cases when it is fair (like with prostate exams). I think the more appropriate response would have more to do with the specific mechanics of the situation and a more general argument for being allowed to choose a job. Ideally one should be able to argue for why women should have the right to work without mentioning equal treatment at all, the issue isn't inequality so much as an arbitrary restriction of liberty.


I dont think MLK would have agreed such comparisons were appropriate. He believed all humans were equal in dignity.

Well I think some people are clearly more dignified than others. Maybe with a narrow meaning of the term "dignity" this is true but there are many other metrics we could use, like "did they commit genocide?"

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#22 •••
It's not about applying the principle though, it's people disagreeing about what it means in the first place.


I do not agree this is an accurate depiction of the disputes youve described.


I think believing groups are "equal" is probably the most fraught because you have to find a way of measuring/comparing the groups and then somehow it comes out to a tie.


There is no need to quantify, compare, or contrast body stats to make gender equality (GE) a reality.


Also men and women probably shouldn't have access to the same resources; women need tampons and support for pregnancy more than men do, because of obvious differences.


No one is arguing men and women should both have access to care only women need or vice versa. Thats a silly take. The argument is that men and women should both have access to the same freedoms, the same access to resources, and the same access to opportunities - not that they should necessarily have the same resources or the same opportunities. Eg. Medical care for men and women are different, but access to that care can be the same for men and women.


Well I think some people are clearly more dignified than others.


The dignity MLK believed in wasnt something that was earned or lost. ...I am a little perplexed why you would favor MLK when you argue against the universal equality he was known and admired for.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#23 •••
@SkepticalOne
There is no need to quantify, compare, or contrast body stats to make gender equality (GE) a reality.

That part of my argument is about descriptive statements like "men are equal to women." Not prescriptive statements. But I don't think your point is about descriptive statements at all, so I will drop this.


Eg. Medical care for men and women are different, but access to that care can be the same for men and women.

I mean, resources cost money, so it makes sense to give access to some resources only to the people that need them. That's gonna be lopsided in cases of pregnancy, periods, testicular cancer, etc. So there are obvious exceptions. But if there can be reasonable exceptions to equal rights, then everyone believes in equal rights, they just have reasonable exceptions (according to their definition of reasonable.) So the principle becomes non-unique. There's obviously a difference between reasonable distinctions ("women need tampons more") and unreasonable distinctions ("women should have to stay at home"). Someone might say, "both men and women have the same right of achieving happiness, but in different ways." The only way to tell which distinctions are reasonable is on a case by case basis, I'm not sure there's a principle of equality that cleanly separates them.


The dignity MLK believed in wasnt something that was earned or lost. ...I am a little perplexed why you would favor MLK when you argue against the universal equality he was known and admired for.

Because I favored MLK in the context of saying he was better than Hitler. That's a low bar and it doesn't require agreeing with everything he said. I also don't think I said his view was necessarily wrong, just a very narrow definition of dignity in practice and not the only way or most useful was to compare people. I agree with him on a good chunk of policy positions, but that's in cases where views can be concretely defined. Sure, if you ignore people's actions and are just left with abstract dignity that doesn't depend on actions, everyone is equal. But I am judging them by the content of their character, which MLK also said to do.

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#24 •••


Psychological sex differences are thought to arise from the interaction of genes, hormones, and social learning throughout brain development.

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#25 •••
@Savant
But if there can be reasonable exceptions to equal rights, then everyone believes in equal rights, they just have reasonable exceptions (according to their definition of reasonable.)


If rights mean anything at all, there can be no "reasonable exception" to equal rights.


I mean, resources cost money, so it makes sense to give access to some resources only to the people that need them. That's gonna be lopsided in cases of pregnancy, periods, testicular cancer, etc. So there are obvious exceptions.


Rights aren't determined by accountants. Human rights are freedoms and protections that belong to every person by virtue of being human. You're getting bogged down in things that are irrelevant.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#26 •••
@SkepticalOne
Rights aren't determined by accountants. Human rights are freedoms and protections that belong to every person by virtue of being human. You're getting bogged down in things that are irrelevant.


There is not a single right on the planet that doesn't have practical exceptions. Nothing is absolute, not equality and certainly not rights. Everything has an accountant, because there are no perfect solutions in a world of entropy, only trade-offs.

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#27 •••
@Shoresy
There is not a single right on the planet that doesn't have practical exceptions. Nothing is absolute, not equality and certainly not rights.


That's a strawman. You're arguing against something I havent said. I said rights aren't determined by accountants meaning the rights of a group can't be excepted for financial costs. Do you disagree?

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#28 •••
@SkepticalOne

I just did.

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#29 •••
@Shoresy

Okay - which groups' rights are impermanent

in your eyes? If you're going to be discriminatory, you might as well say it with your full throat.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#30 •••
@SkepticalOne
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