God is evil and that's the truth

As a challenge to Muslims and Christians, I challenge them to name 1 good thing their God did.

I don't need to prove that morality exists, because Christians and Muslims already believe it exists, so I can just use their version of morality.

You're ignoring cases where a non-evil person can allow evil people to harm each other

I think you misread the section you were replying to. God doesn't merely "allow" evil. He enables it. There is a difference between letting person A kill person B, and enabling that killing by giving person A weapons and ability.

God is justified in allowing people to suffer since everyone's natural inclination is to be evil and saving them from suffering isn't strictly "good"

This makes no sense in neither Christianity nor Islam, who both command people to save each other from evil, and who claim God sometimes saves from evil.

Further, even if humans were naturally doing evil, it is God who at the very least enabled that evil. So he is still indirect cause.

And if people deserve to suffer, then nothing which happens isn't strictly "evil" to begin with, leaving God with nothing to judge actions by.

Well their version of morality says everything God does is justified. So kind of defeats your point.

Actually, it doesn't if it produces contradiction. If God says "it is wrong to kill innocents" and then goes around killing innocents, God is unjustified by his own words. He is left with nothing to judge humans by, when God engages in same evil actions he judges humans for.

Humans aren't in a position to punish each other for sin,

People do that all the time.

so its more virtuous to save each other.

This sentence doesn't really follow from previous statement.

It matters a lot the purity of your motivations, and no one's motivations are fully pure except God

This is an assumption. If God does evil, what his motivations are is irrelevant. Doing evil makes you evil. What excuse you make up to do evil, doesn't change the fact that you are doing evil.

Again, it can be justified for non evil ppl to enable evil people to harm each other (like detectives getting criminals to snitch)

This would merely make all evil justified, and thus not evil. If it's good for "evil people" to harm each other, and everyone is evil, then there are no evil actions in the world.

God says it's wrong for humans to kill each other outside of certain circumstances, that's not the same as saying he's not justified in doing so.

God causes humans to kill each other, so he is causing what he claims is wrong.

The motivations for harming a bad person are what makes it evil though.

Given that God causes motivations too, this does not save him.

Since humans are also evil and have impure motivations, killing other people isn't a justified punishment for sin.

Well, God causes that, so saying it's not justified is merely saying God isn't justified.

But since God is motivated purely by judgment, he can punish humans and be justified.

If humans harming each other isn't justified, then God helping make that happen isn't justified either.

There is really no escaping from the dichotomy:

P1. There are evil actions in the world or no action in the world is evil.

P2. God enables (helps to make happen) all actions

C. God either enables all evil actions, or there are no evil actions.

P1 is logical truism.

P2 is true for both Islam and Christianity, unless in case of some extreme non-literal interpretation of the Bible where entire creation story is "made up".

C logically follows.

This is why I say paganism is superior to Christianity, because paganism has more than one way to solve problem of evil.

The most obvious way is to just admit that God is evil.

Another way is what ancients did constantly. They had multiple Gods, some good, some evil, some a mix of good and evil.

So evil would get blamed on evil Gods, and good would be attributed to good Gods.

In fact, in ancient Greece, good Gods often fought against evil Gods, and evil Gods (titans) were ones who created the world.

I've already addressed this with the analogy of detectives getting criminals to snitch.

Analogy doesn't work because snitching results in good (harm prevented). God enabling all evil doesn't reduce evil, it increases it.

A more proper analogy would be detectives helping criminals commit crime. That's what God does.

God enables evil actions is not the same as saying God is evil.

No, but God enabling all evil actions is. It makes him responsible for all evil which occurs.

God creating people who have impure motivations is not the same as having impure motivations. It's like saying God creates people who aren't all knowing therefore God can't be all knowing.

This comparison doesn't really work, because while God can create someone weaker than him, he cannot create someone more evil than him. This is because causing evil makes someone responsible for that evil. If it were not so, there would be nothing to judge evil actions by. And God causes all evil, directly or indirectly.

In Christianity, God has a duty to punish sin. So evil people suffering is justice based on the motivations of the entity causing said suffering, in fact much less than they deserve.

the problem with this is, again, it makes all suffering justified. If person kills another person, and God enabled that, is it justified punishment? If all suffering is justified punishment, then no action is evil and no person does any evil action.

Again, responsibility for a thing has different implications depending on who is doing the thing and what their motivations are.

If God has a motivation to cause / enable evil and create evil urges, and evil motivations, then God's motivations themselves are evil or at the very least contain evil, both contradicting Christian and muslim versions of God.

You can judge evil actions by the motivations for them.

Not if there are no evil actions. If all suffering is justified, no one is causing any unjustified suffering.

Causing something indirectly has different implications depending on the motivations for doing so.

Not when God is the one also creating motivations. Evil caused by God will always be greater than evil caused by a single person, because God causes evil of all evil persons, not just one.

Person comes to God and asks "Am I evil?" and God says "yes". Person asks "Did you create me?" God answers "Yes". Person answers "So you created evil".

Satan was created by God, for some reason.

No, because human motivations are not fully pure. If you arrest criminals because you enjoy kidnapping and seeing people suffer, then you could still be a bad person even though a good person arresting the criminals could be justified.

this comparison doesnt really work in framework of "all suffering is justified".

You cannot blame any individual for suffering they cause, or label any suffering as evil, if you think all suffering is justified punishment done by God.

If God wants for person A to cause suffering to person B, I dont see why person A would be considered evil for doing what God wants for person A to do.

Motivations dont work either, because as it was mentioned before, God caused those too.

the same dichotomy which applies to actions, applies to motivations as well. God enabled all evil motivations. And what makes a motivation evil? If its because it causes suffering, well you already argued all people are evil and deserve to suffer, so which standard makes motivation evil?

"Indirectly though which is not the same thing."

the causation chain doesnt stop just because its indirect. If you made a robot which you knew would go around killing people, responsibility would be on you because causation chain leads to you. Maybe you would not be directly killing people, but indirectly counts just as much, if not more because you would be trying to cause evil while dodging responsibility.

Satan was created by God as an angel. But he got too ambitious and wanted to become the leader in heaven.

God knew that would happen, so an easier way would be to just not create Satan.

That wasn't my framework, you are oversimplifying it. I said God is justified in enabling suffering, not that humans are.

You didnt challenge that God enabled all suffering, even enabled humans to enable suffering. So if humans arent justified in enabling suffering, it means God also enabled something which isnt justified, as God enables everything, so either everything is justified or God enabled something unjustified.

Because their motivations are morally relevant

the problem is that you are doing circular reasoning. You start with a premise that God's motivations are pure, but gave no standard to what makes motivations pure. So you started with premise which is actually the topic.

As for motivations being morally relevant, if there is such thing as a bad motivation, God created it, making him responsible for existence of bad motivations.

No, it could be selfish reasons, or personal satisfaction from seeing suffering, as opposed to justice.

the problem with this is that God also wants for people to suffer for no other reason than his own. the only difference is that when God does it, you call it justice.

But a robot doesn't have free will. This comparison doesn't work.

Free will changes nothing in the equation. If you made robot with free will which you knew would go around killing people, the responsibility would still be with you for killings which happen. Free will doesnt magically break causation chain, not when there is omniscience.

Enabling a bad motivation can be justified; having a bad motivation isn't

God causes people to have bad motivations, so he is enabling something which isnt justified.

the only way enabling bad motivation can be justified is if that bad motivation results in greater good, but if bad motivations always resulted in greater good, they would no longer be bad motivations but path to good.

If motivation is judged based on how much good it leads to, then its not a bad motivation if it results in more good.

If people are bad for causing bad motivations, then God is bad too for causing bad motivations.

God = Created people

People = created bad motivations

God = created bad motivations

If people are bad for creating bad motivations, so is God.

Your argument is basically:

"God = created bad motivations = had good reasons to create bad motivations"

But this doesnt actually escape responsibility for creating bad motivations, and only makes things worse because any evil person can just say he is causing suffering for good reasons which God has.

If God created evil for good reasons, he has still merely increased amount of evil in existence, and destroyed "all-good".

And as for producing more good, not all actions in the world result in more good. If that were true, there would be no "bad actions". Same for motivations. If all motivations were actually causing "more good", they would no longer be bad motivations but good motivations.

Or if it's the Christian God, because he is actually motivated by justice?

there is no justice in creating evil people and then punishing them for evil, because the fault for existence of evil tracks back to creator.

We could discss a non-all-good God, but then we aren't talking about the Christian God anymore.

Christian God claims to be all good, so I am fine with discussing "all good". As for more good than bad, that is debatable too, not all actions in the world cause more good than evil.

As I said, on virtue ethics, enabling someone else to make a non-justified choice can be justified.

I didnt say it cant be justified sometimes. Your position here isnt "it sometimes can be justified".

Your position here is that God is always, in all instances, justified in enabling something unjustified, and that everything "unjustified" which exists is actually at same time somehow justified to exist from God's point of view.

My position is simply that God is responsible for all evil, and that does make him evil because he causes more evil than any single person.

Further, if we define good as "reducing evil", then God creating all evil has only increased evil.

If we define evil as "causing suffering", God caused all suffering.

Free will which causes evil isnt good either, so creating that is evil.

As for "greater good", motivations and actions are both judged by how much evil and good they cause. If each of them in this world causes more good than evil, then evil motivations dont exist and Bible is again incorrect. If some of them cause more evil than good, God created them so he bears responsibility.

Again, you havent said what counts as "good motivations". If its effort to reduce evil, God failed there. If its punishing evil, God needs to punish himself because his actions contain evil. If its maximizing good, God could have maximized good by creating people who are more good.

So what are God's motivations again?