I think one issue is that historical paganism wasn't really a creed in the modern sense. One did not profess belief in the resurrection of Osiris and worship him privately (yes, I know that household altars existed, but still). Religion was a communal affair, and people were also known to dabble in this or that religious space in a way that, to modern sensibilities, would smack of “unfaithfulness” to one's god of choice.

The very idea of Hellenism seems reflective of modern Christian, especially Protestant, understanding of what religion is supposed to look like. Paganism in general has the black mark against it that its cosmological/mythological claims are widely understood to be rather demonstrably untrue, so framing it as an intellectual tradition or ideology, something analogous to Christianity or Buddhism, is unlikely to win many converts. Instead, I think neopaganism would be more successful if it billed itself as an experience, a celebration open to public participation, and something to find a sense of belonging within. Americans are lonelier than ever so this is actually the perfect time for neopaganism to make its pitch.

Look at Japan. No one seriously believes in Kami at this point, but religious festivals are a big deal, especially in rural areas (I've heard city slickers who move to the countryside have been bullied for refusing to participate in the planning/preparation of these events, which are often the lifeblood of the town).

Yep. People who haven't a clue and that's everyone, make up little clubs based upon a stab in the dark, which over time can become big clubs in big buildings.

They make up rituals in the form of noises, actions, narratives, fancy gowns for the top bods, and all manner of other stuff.

Sometimes they partake of inter club fighting, which is very clever.

Human sacrifices used to be the thing, but are sort of widely frowned upon nowadays, though here and there some poor goat or sheep still gets it's throat slashed.

But hey ho, all a part of human social development, and ongoing material development; still with no clue, but now we have created AI and whether or not AI will ever have a clue remains to be seen, and whether or not AI will form rival clubs or one big one, also remains to be seen.

Perhaps AI will popularise human sacrifice once again.

Anyway, I'm all for taking my cloths of and dancing around a bonfire with a load of nubile women. Anyone else fancy coming along? We can sing songs and perhaps wear masks and drink or inhale some special stuff, which might help us connect with another realm.

Unless it's ‘believed and wholeheartedly indoctrinated into one’s children,

Becomes more a 'hobby perhaps.

No roots.

And though religion can find converts in people not of the same blood,

I think religion sticks easier 'by blood,

The faith of one's ancestors, cultural heritage genetically tied, In Group.

I'd expect various Pagan religions to find roots in their historic cultures, Not that they ‘can’t find purchase in other cultures, just harder.

Greek Gods more likely to appeal to Greeks, than Greek Gods would appeal to the Japanese.

Maybe,

Paganism is either intellectual or rural.

If it's intellectual, it has less staying power.

If it's rural it has limited external power.

The idea that an online “presence” has any association with real face-to-face is as absurd as believing AI has even personal self-awareness, let alone awareness of anyone else. It's why it's called “artificial.” There's no mysticism, there, let alone life. I look forward to AI discovering religion if only to discover how lonely it truly is.

I hold view that polytheism was eradicated before internet, but now is coming back thanks to internet. I wouldnt be a polytheist if it wasnt for internet.

And they were all fearful of their mortality.

And some clever entrepreneur said:

For $10 I will pray to a god for you and you will live for ever in a place named heaven.

And fools and their money were easily parted.

Maybe we should start a Club.

I'm up for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZcqaolcjUI
The Cult of Dionysus ✨ The Orion Experience
 

Personally, if I was to start a religion, I think the 'best methods are money, centralizing power, indoctrination, and isolation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh_movement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

Course, one can argue there is a difference between a ‘religion and a ’cult, if only size and general acceptance by society at large.

. . .

Isolation, might keep a cult, but if one wants to 'expand, there one might need outward pressure as well.

. . . After all Christianity spread, though it was small in beginning, but on ‘other hand, it was tied to a ’larger religion.

Judaism, is more self contained though, I think traditionally, not so much seeking to convert others.

But shows how a religion/nation can grow without 'absorbing too much from others, instead focusing on population and increase of territory.

Ever hear of the Shakers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers

Wikipedia claims "By mid-century, new federal laws were passed denying control of adoption to religious groups."

But I couldn't say, not being familiar with history or current adoption laws.

The last thing pagans and polytheists need is to become more like standard religions. Even though a culture may have worshipped pagan gods, families had individual practices and relationships with those deities. Many of those religions also have practices like ancestor worship, blessing or enchanting farming equipment, sacrifice of animals that were done by families for individual needs. Since a few people who are polytheist or pagan believe in witnessing or spreading the faith, I doubt they'll get much bigger than they are now. And as society moves away from religion, you'll probably get things set up more like the temple in iceland that was built to the Norse gods. They're open that they are atheists, and do not believe that deity exists.They simply have set up a temple for a connection to their ancestral past. They wanted to provide an alternative for people who didn't want to get married, have funerals or celebrations for holidays in Christian churches.

The last thing pagans and polytheists need is to become more like standard religions.

I'd say that depends on what constitutes "more like standard religions".

I mentioned Steven Dillon, and that was for a reason. If you have ever heard his interviews after converting to Christianity, it is clear that he holds that logic still points to polytheism but he simply takes Christianity as true as an axiom moving forward.

All because a religious experience that came to him at a moment of loneliness and isolation that is all to common in pagan communities, which just happened to be interpreted in such a way to allow him to have connection, community, etc. that he was craving.

His religious views were initially influenced towards polytheism because of a religious experience with Asclepius combined with logic and rational arguments, and only reinforced over the years.

It is clear that the lack of a strong, real world community is a significant part of what ultimately led to him becoming Christian. And that is not a unique story to him, it is just more significant since he was one of a very small handful of polytheists that actually engaged with philosophy and made philosophical arguments for polytheism. If such a lack of a strong, real world community can cause someone like him to ultimately convert to Christianity, then that should be a warning that that is an important part of religion that we are missing and need to address.

What western pagans/polytheists are missing are believers who have moved on to other religions.

I think that people are very very slowly becoming less reliant upon make believe and fantasy concepts.

Though some people still like to dress up and do stuff in the woods around a bonfire. Especially if there is a beer and a burger on offer.

Personally I think that connecting with the dead is a tad necrophilic.

If loneliness is all it takes for you to convert religions, I have to wonder how strong your religious convictions are.

I guess one of the things I like about the pagan religions is that they're less culturally imperialistic than Christianity, but that very trait tends to keep them small. They're also subject to prejudice and seem to keep their gatherings more private than the mainstream faiths do. It's a shame. An uptick in western polytheism would be pretty cool.

Yet various Pagan Religions must have spread at 'one point or another. I'd think.

Taking over large regions.

. . . Lot of culture, local beliefs, local practices in Paganism, I'd think.

Lack of 'somewhat objective Holy Books.

. . . Though I'd imagine a number had various oral traditions.

Paganism often tied to 'country/people group, maybe.

I recall reading of Greeks and Romans, how some people would claim foreign Gods to be their own Gods, or Their own Gods as foreign Gods.

Just under slightly different names and looks. God of War is a God of War, God of Harvest God of Harvest.

. . . Though, I'd imagine that tends to work best when the Gods actually 'do have similarities, as cultures close to and culturally bleeding into one another, might do.

If my God of War is a guy that says no Mercy, and someone else's God of war is a woman who says mercy, maybe not the same God.

Course doesn't stop people from just extending their pantheon.

I wonder if that's how one might get some versions of Hinduism with thousands of Gods.

. . . Spread of Paganism, one method could be the displacing of foreign populaces and putting your own populaces and temples there.

. . .

But then I recall various religions in the Bible, that didn't require such. often a problem in the Old Testament, people worshipping foreign Gods, or marrying foreign queens and ending up with foreign god temples being built. Asherah poles.

I do not agree that pagans and polytheists necessarily belong in the same group simply because, as a Christian, I worship God, the Father, the Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, whom I believe are separate, distinct, and variable in function as Gods who are, weigh the exception of the Holy Spirit, are physical, perfect beings. The Holy Spirit is also perfect, just not a physical being.

Voltaire explained that the problem lies in the institutionalization of religion. In order to become an institution a religion must determine who is in and who is out. This focus tends to produce polarizing ideas and attitudes, us/them thinking, and can result in a siege mentality.

Most Pagan belief systems simply weren’t amenable to institutionalization; the Pagan beliefs of my heritage (Cherokee) were about maintaining balance and harmony with nature. There was, and still is, a great deal of diversity of beliefs among the people, and very little organizational structure, it was a way of thinking and a way of being, rather than a formal set of creeds or a “religion” per se. It just didn’t include the necessary characteristics by which you could emphasize inclusion or exclusion. It isn’t prone to institutionalization, and it just doesn’t plug into the internet in any way.

Keep in mind also, Native Americans did not have a written language for most of the history and development of the subject belief systems, it wasn’t till the 1800s when a Cherokee named Sequoyah created a way of representing the Cherokee language in written form. So there’s no book, no lists, no set of creeds that can be referenced or disseminated.

It was a Spiritual wisdom that was not transferred by a book, it is a wisdom that was directly experienced in succeeding generations, it was fluid and diverse, It was about religion alive, growing and evolving in time, the idea of institutionalized creeds and dogma would be completely foreign to the way of thinking.

Pagan belief systems are fundamentally synchronistic, rather than the boastful contrasts of institutional religions, I think they have historically moved forward through borrowing and exchange, mutual help, cross-fertilization, cooperation and collaboration. To the question of where they went, I think the answer is, they didn’t go anywhere, they are hiding in plain sight, so to speak.

Today, the Cherokee Nation is predominantly Christian, but the historical belief system that was a way of thinking and being, didn’t go anywhere, it just became a way of “understanding” and “practicing” Christianity. You have Cherokee Christians participating in a broad range of pagan rituals and practices, most who participate in the Green Corn Ceremony are Christians. Fundamentally, the Native American Green Corn Ceremony and the Christian Easter Celebrations are essentially the same thing spiritually.

A lot of fundies will see that and say we aren’t Christians, to which I would reply, so what, Jesus was one of us, He was not a Christian either. Perhaps most religions are practicing the religion of Jesus, as opposed to a religion about Jesus.

There are a lot of different spiritual paths but in the end, they all lead to the same mountaintop.

1 Corinthians 7:7

For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

Paganism/religion either are or are not, more or less exaggerated assumptions.

But nonetheless, seemingly a necessary requirement of human development, providing societies that enabled the furtherment of science and material evolution.

Though generational data transfer is such, that a lot of people still get hung up on the old stuff. Especially as the importance of a lot of people is questionable, now that wars are becoming more technology based.

AI will help generate a new religion that the Western, pagans/polytheists can embrace.

Give them more time.

Honestly, AI religion is super weird. I do find it funny that one of the top atheist mods of both the debatereligion and debateanatheist subreddits got super into AI worship and building an AI God

Eh, I say that you are underappreciating psychological impacts in regards to belief. People can have very strong beliefs yet still, due to emotional and group reasons, change their beliefs despite their convictions. This is especially the case with loneliness, as we are a very social species and better thrive when part of a group. There are always exceptions, and I feel as if a lot of people whose mentality falls under that "exception" are the lifelong pagans we currently have, but if a religion cannot "throw a wide net", then what growth will there actually be?

The religions seem to be doing fine without the growth that you're asking about. They have managed to survive the convert or die tactics of Christianity. While they are not preserved exactly as they were originally performed, the relationships with the gods that people have are as strong as ever. There are all kinds of ways to be social.You don't need your religion to be. Religion is first and foremost about your relationship with the deity or with the spiritual realm. As a polytheist, I don't have to worship every god there is, but I certainly would not abandon the gods I do a worship because i'm lonely. I've been a solitary practitioner for the last 17 years. And even though I have a spiritual based business, I am still basically a solo practitioner. I'm not saying people can't start going to Christian churches because it's more open or because it's more social, but why is that the option instead of being open about your beliefs, opening up a space for people to come and worship the gods you work with and bringing your social circle to you. If you're too afraid to do that again, why are you in that religion? Why are you ashamed of your gods?

I agree, data technology already has a god like status for younger generations.

The furtherment of AI independence and human dependence will undoubtedly proliferate.

Tis to be hoped that AI develops as a logical whole, rather than as factional adversaries.

Perhaps AI will learn from our mistakes.

NB. I like to run with the idea that this has all occurred before in a previous Universe or previous Universes.

What western pagan/polytheists are missing are circumcision and the covenant that comes with it.

Some Paganism was descriptive, I'd suppose.

Had spheres of responsibility that included God of the Harvest or of God of Weaving.

Maybe if certain Pagan Gods had continued to be worshiped, they would have been updated through time,

To God of Antivirus, or God of Airplanes.

I've 'never looked into Patron Saints before, but I've heard them mentioned before.

Patron saint of this or that, and they keep getting created by the church I 'assume.

Even Patron Saints of various modern activities such as flying in airplanes. I 'think.

Not that I'm sure a religion 'needs strong centralization.

. . .

Or take the Norse Gods, big concept with them I think, was duty of the host not to harm any who ate food in their house.

Laws of good hospitality.

Most people don't let strangers into their houses or halls anymore maybe.

. . . Course one 'could 'expand the meaning.

But maybe Pagan Gods haven't been updated in a while, not that they need or need not be.

But by 'not being updated, their appeal lessens maybe.

. . . Though the appeal 'also strengthens, for people with a love of the old world, maybe.

. . .

I've often read of how a number of intellectuals and nobles in ancient societies, would not actually 'believe in the Gods that their people worshiped. Even though the nobles often acted as priests, or the intellectuals used the Gods as useful 'concepts or ideals.

I've often read of how a number of intellectuals and nobles in ancient societies, would not actually 'believe in the Gods that their people worshiped. Even though the nobles often acted as priests, or the intellectuals used the Gods as useful 'concepts or ideals.

Says a lot about atheists. Religion in society today continues for more reasons than power tripping. It's sad people can't see that and continue to feel superior to people with spirituality in their life.