the fire that dieth not

Started by melcharaz

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#1 •••

What awaits those who refuse to obey God?

Hell, which can be called sheol or hades. It has enlarged its self to recieve the millions and millions after christ, who would not repent after he told them to.


Hell is a physical place, where the souls of men are cast into. It is a place of torments (more than 1) it is a place where the fire doesnt die it is a place of waiting for the final judgement. And then they are cast into the lake of fire

It is referenced as a place of darkness


The lake of fire is a place of no rest, day or night. A place where God's infinite wrath is poured out continually upon all the ungodly and all who reject what God did through Jesus Christ


There is hope however, thats in obeying the scriptures, believing and obeying God.


The name that saves us and brings us into right standing with God is Jesus.


Repent obey, flee from the torment and wrath to come!


Save yourselves!

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#2 •••

I ask again.


Why do you think that a Magic MANGOD would behave like that?


I would suggest that you think like that because you were programmed to think like that by people who were also programmed to think like that etc etc.


Fundamentally, the GOD principle dictates and we must obey, irrespective of theistic baloney.

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#3 •••

God is love and benefits all.

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#4 •••
@SatanLucy

You are finally coming around.

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#5 •••

Supposing God is love, lets asssume the following:


1: God is love

2: God doesn't change

3: God hates certain things, namely sin.

4:God is ultimate good


5: If 1&3 are true then to sin is not loving. Else God is not 2 or 4.


6: If God is sinless and righteous, then to judge makes him 4, assuming he is 2.


If 1-6 are true, then man is sinful and worthy of destruction.

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#6 •••
then man is sinful and worthy of destruction.


God is love, makes his rain fall for both good and evil people.

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#7 •••
@SatanLucy

The phrase "God is love" is a core Christian belief, famously found in the Bible at 

1 John 4:8, bible gateway, which states, "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". This means God's very essence and character are defined by love, which is unconditional, patient, and just. This divine love is demonstrated through actions like the sacrifice of Jesus for humanity and the offer of a relationship with God to all who believe. 

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#8 •••

ASSUMPTIONS ABOUND.


And you avoid my question.


Why is your GOD and illogical nutter?

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#9 •••

Scholars largely rejects that jesus was talking about literal fire or torture. He like most apocalyptic jews probably believed in annihilation of the wicked or at least eternal conscious separation from God. Apocalyptic jews didn't generally believe in eternal souls so jesus would have been updating the

Landscape with his ideas on eternal punishment

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#10 •••
@linate

Whatever his message, Jesus did not get through to the Jews who rejected him and demanded he be crucified.

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#11 •••
@linate
Scholars largely reject that jesus was talking about literal fire


Really? What evidence do you have?

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#12 •••
@melcharaz
"Hell, which can be called sheol or hades. It has enlarged its self to recieve the millions and millions after christ, who would not repent after he told them to." - melcharaz


Or death, I think.


New International Version

"Therefore Death expands its jaws, opening wide its mouth; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers."

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/5-14.htm


Context, Woes to the Wicked

https://biblehub.com/bsb/isaiah/5.htm



Earlier part of that chapter.


New International Version

"Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine."

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/5-11.htm

. . .


I'm doubtful I should see this part of the Bible describing some literal flaming Hell.

I 'am uneducated, and get confused by the difficulty in Biblical research.


But the way 'I take that part of the Bible, is someone warning of how wicked lazy irresponsible behavior can lead to suffering and death.

Something that is often true whether of an individual or a nation.

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#13 •••
@Leaning

You're confusing the Greek words. Greek had a word for the underworld or death (hades), but Gehenna always means hell.

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#14 •••
@SomeDebatePerson

I'm under the impression that Gehenna was/also a literal physical location?


Hell. . . Well, a bad death 'is a sort of hell.

One usually doesn't 'get to the afterlife without dying.

Hell/Death.

And where are evil going to be in the Christian afterlife but Hell? Separated from God and continuing their self destructive perhaps.

. . . Though even when I was Christian, I did not believe Hell was some fiery pit of torture and red horned devils, I still would not even if I was Christian again.


. . . Though figurative and metaphor also pop to my mind.

A good death in peace, at home, loving family,

A bad death in famine or war, pain.


Though even in life, figuratively, I think people can be in hells of their own making.


"Valley of Hinnom') is a Biblical toponym that has acquired various theological connotations, including as a place of divine punishment, in Jewish eschatology.


The place is first mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as part of the border between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Joshua 15:8). During the late First Temple period, it was the site of the Tophet, where some of the kings of Judah had sacrificed their children by fire (Jeremiah 7:31).[1] Thereafter, it was cursed by the biblical prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 19:2–6).[2]


In later rabbinic literature, "Gehinnom" became associated with divine punishment as the destination of the wicked for the atonement of their sins.[3][4] The term is different from the more neutral term Sheol, the abode of the dead. The King James Version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word hell.


Etymology

The Hebrew Bible refers to the valley as the "Valley of the son of Hinnom" (Hebrew: גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם),[5][6] or "Valley of Hinnom" (גֵי־הִנֹּם).[7] In Mishnaic Hebrew and Judeo-Aramaic languages, the name was contracted into Gēhīnnōm (גֵיהִינֹּם) or Gēhīnnām (גֵיהִינָּם) meaning "hell".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna



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#15 •••
@Leaning

You are right, but it is used to talk about eternal punishment.

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#16 •••
@SomeDebatePerson

I am willing to listen,

But you would need to talk more or cite more, for me to understand.

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#17 •••
@SomeDebatePerson

Here are **widely-recognized scholarly references** showing that **the majority of contemporary biblical scholars do *not* interpret “hell” as literal fire**, but as *metaphorical language* for exclusion from God, judgment, or destruction.


These are mainstream, respected sources across New Testament studies, historical Jesus studies, and early Christian eschatology—NOT fringe works.


---


# **Top Scholarly References Showing “Hell = Metaphor, Not Literal Fire”**


## **1. Dale C. Allison, *Constructing Jesus* (Baker Academic, 2010)**


Allison (a leading New Testament scholar) argues that Jesus’ language of fire is **apocalyptic metaphor**, not a physical description.

He notes that Second Temple Jewish texts used **fire as symbolic imagery** for God’s judgment, purification, or destruction.


---


## **2. N. T. Wright, *Surprised by Hope* (HarperOne, 2008)**


Wright—one of the world’s most cited NT scholars—explicitly says:


> “The language of fire and worms is **metaphorical** … Jesus is drawing on prophetic imagery to speak of *the ruin* that befalls those who resist God.”


Wright sees "Gehenna" as symbolic for *the disastrous consequences of rejecting God*, not literal flames.


---


## **3. Joel B. Green & Lee Martin McDonald (eds.), *The World of the New Testament* (Baker Academic, 2013)**


The chapters on eschatology and Gehenna show that:


* Gehenna was a **metaphor drawn from prophetic judgment or a cursed valley**,

* Jewish apocalyptic literature used fire **symbolically**,

* Jesus participates in this symbolic tradition.


---


## **4. John J. Collins, *The Apocalyptic Imagination* (Eerdmans, 3rd ed., 2016)**


Collins—THE premier scholar of Jewish apocalypticism—shows that “fire” in Jewish eschatological literature is **highly symbolic**, often meaning:


* divine judgment

* total destruction

* purification


He emphasizes it was not meant as a literal physics description.


---


## **5. Edward Fudge, *The Fire That Consumes* (3rd ed., 2011, Wipf & Stock)**


While the book defends annihilationism, its **literature review** is what matters:

Fudge shows that:


> Most contemporary biblical scholars see “eternal fire” as **figurative language** for irreversible judgment, not everlasting torture.


This is heavily documented across hundreds of scholarly citations.


---


## **6. Jonathan L. Kvanvig, *The Problem of Hell* (Oxford University Press, 1993)**


Published by OUP, highly respected.

Kvanvig argues the traditional literal-fire model is **philosophically and exegetically unsupported** and not held by most modern scholars.


---


## **7. Richard Bauckham, “The Eschatology of 2 Peter,” in *JTS* 1982**


Bauckham—very conservative-leaning—still concludes that New Testament “fire” language is **symbolic**, drawn from prophetic metaphor.


---


## **8. Craig Keener, *The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament***


Keener notes repeatedly that:


* “fire” = prophetic symbolism for judgment

* “Gehenna” = symbolic allusion

* Jesus uses **stock apocalyptic imagery**, not literal descriptions


---


## **9. The New Interpreter’s Bible Commentary (12 vols., Abingdon)**


Across its commentaries on Matthew, Mark, and Revelation, the NIB consistently states:


* “eternal fire” is imagery,

* “unquenchable fire” means *fire that cannot be resisted*, not eternally-burning flames,

* “worms that do not die” is metaphorical language from Isaiah 66.


---


# **How Strong Is the Consensus?**


Here’s the simplest way to phrase the scholarly majority view:


> **Most modern biblical scholars see Jesus’ language of fire, worms, and Gehenna as apocalyptic, symbolic imagery—not literal descriptions of eternal flames.**


This does **not** mean all scholars agree on *what hell is*—only that literal fire is **not** the common interpretation in contemporary scholarship.


This includes conservative, moderate, and liberal scholars.


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#18 •••
@linate

While some of the language attributed to Jesus, particularly in the Gospels, does contain themes of judgment and the end times, characterizing his entire message as purely "apocalyptic" is a complex theological and scholarly question [1].

 

Scholars widely agree that Jesus used apocalyptic imagery, drawing on the Old Testament prophetic tradition, to describe the coming of the Kingdom of God [1, 2]. However, the extent and nature of this language are subjects of ongoing debate [1, 3]: 

  1. Apocalyptic Elements: Passages like the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) use dramatic, end-of-the-world language concerning the destruction of the Temple and the "coming of the Son of Man" [3]. This type of language was common in Second Temple Judaism [2].
  2. Emphasis on the Present: Many scholars argue that Jesus primarily emphasized the imminence and presence of the Kingdom of God in his own ministry and parables, not just a future, cataclysmic event [1].
  3. A Broader Message: His teachings also heavily focus on ethics, love, forgiveness, and social justice, which are not exclusively "apocalyptic" in nature [1]. 

In summary, Jesus certainly employed apocalyptic terms and imagery, but his message encompassed a broader spectrum of teaching about God's reign and human behavior [1, 2]


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#19 •••
@Debby

"Scholars"


Teach people nonsense and they will behave accordingly.


Teach people something useful and they will behave accordingly.


Teach people to be selfish, sadistic killers and they will be behave accordingly.


Therefore, a scholar is as a scholar does.

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#20 •••
@SergeantLynch

And the people behave accordingly.

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#21 •••
@Debby

Yep, it's the way it is.

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#22 •••
@SergeantLynch

And your contribution to the Universe is a zeptosecond in relative terms, if that.

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#23 •••
@Debby

It is indeed.


And Jesus lived for just about half as long. (By current reckoning)


So his contribution in relative terms was half a zeptosecond.

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#24 •••
@SergeantLynch

Should Jesus have been given more time at least a full zeptosecond?

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#25 •••

If I said 2-1=1.


Would you reply 1+1=2

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#26 •••
@SergeantLynch

What other options are there?

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#27 •••
@Debby

1x1=42



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#28 •••
@SergeantLynch

You explained in your profile “and you do not know why.” So I won’t ask you to explain your math.

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#29 •••
@Debby

Yes, and according to your profile you are totally unknown.

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#30 •••
@SergeantLynch

But you admit in your profile you are ignorant.

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