God's mercy and impressions of non believers. God cant win

Started by linate

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#1 •••

It seems like a lot of times non-believers can't be satisfied with God's mercy. Too merciful, angry. Not merciful enough, angry.


........

You’re touching on a tension that theologians, philosophers, and skeptics have wrestled with for centuries. The difficulty is that **people often want two things at once**:


1. **Perfect justice** (evil should truly matter and be punished).

2. **Perfect mercy** (people should ultimately be forgiven or restored).


Those two intuitions pull in opposite directions. If God is *too merciful*, critics say:


* “Then justice is meaningless. Evil gets a free pass.”


If God is *too strict or just*, critics say:


* “Then God is cruel or unforgiving.”


So the dissatisfaction often comes from **trying to hold both intuitions at the same time** while also rejecting the framework that might reconcile them.


In Christianity, the classic attempt to resolve this tension is the idea that **justice and mercy meet rather than cancel each other**—most centrally in the story of Christ. The claim is that God doesn’t ignore justice, but also doesn’t abandon mercy.


You can see the philosophical problem this way:


* A universe with **only justice** becomes harsh and hopeless.

* A universe with **only mercy** risks moral chaos.

* The religious claim is that reality somehow contains **both**.


Another layer is psychological. Many non-believers (and believers too) react differently depending on **which part of the doctrine they are focusing on**:


* When they think about **hell or judgment**, mercy feels insufficient.

* When they think about **forgiveness of terrible people**, mercy feels excessive.


So the complaint shifts depending on which moral intuition is triggered.


Interestingly, this tension shows up even outside religion. In criminal justice debates, for example:


* Some people say sentences are **too lenient**.

* Others say they are **too harsh**.


Human moral instincts themselves are divided.


Your observation actually echoes a biblical theme too. In the book of Book of Jonah, the prophet is **angry that God is *too merciful*** toward the city of Nineveh. Even inside scripture, people struggle with the same paradox.


From a philosophical standpoint, the deeper issue may be this:

**People want a God who perfectly aligns with their own moral instincts.** But those instincts themselves are often inconsistent.


I’m curious about your perspective here because of the theological synthesis you’ve been working on in your writing (especially around grace, transformation, and love).


Do you think the deeper Christian answer is **mercy plus transformation**—meaning God forgives but also actually changes the person?


That idea seems closer to the Orthodox emphasis you’ve said resonates with you.


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#2 •••

Is god too merciful or not merciful enough? Divine love as healing our disease of sin and its natural consequence


It often seems that when discussions turn to God’s mercy, some critics are impossible to satisfy. If God is merciful, they say evil goes unpunished. If God judges wrongdoing, they say God is cruel. If forgiveness is emphasized, justice appears weak. If judgment is emphasized, mercy appears too small.


The pendulum swings endlessly: **too much mercy or not enough mercy**.


But this tension may reveal something deeper about human moral intuition. We instinctively believe that evil should matter—that cruelty, injustice, and betrayal should have consequences. Yet we also instinctively believe in redemption—that people should be able to change, heal, and be forgiven.


The challenge for theology, philosophy, and even psychology has always been this: **how can justice and mercy both be real without canceling each other out?**


When we explore Christian spirituality more deeply—especially the insights of the early Church Fathers, the Desert Fathers, and later contemplatives—we find that the tradition often reframes the problem entirely.


Instead of thinking primarily in legal categories, many Christian thinkers spoke about **healing, transformation, and participation in divine love**.


When this perspective is combined with modern reflections on happiness and even the intriguing reports from near-death experiences, a surprisingly coherent picture emerges.


---


## Justice and mercy beyond the courtroom


The modern imagination often pictures divine judgment like a courtroom trial: humanity stands accused, God delivers a verdict, and heaven or hell are the sentence.


But early Christian teachers frequently used **medical language rather than legal language**. Sin was not merely breaking rules; it was a **sickness of the soul**.


Hatred, greed, pride, and indifference were seen as distortions of human nature—conditions that damage both the individual and the community.


Within that framework, divine mercy is not the cancellation of justice. Instead, mercy becomes **the means by which justice heals rather than destroys**.


Spiritual life then resembles therapy for the soul: repentance, humility, forgiveness, and compassion are medicines that gradually restore us to our intended nature.


---


## The ocean and the waves


A helpful metaphor for thinking about moral life is the image of **the ocean and the waves**.


Imagine reality as an infinite ocean of being and love. Each human life is like a wave moving across that ocean. Our choices—kindness or cruelty, generosity or selfishness—create ripples that spread outward through the same shared sea.


Those ripples touch other waves. Sometimes gently, sometimes destructively.


The moral life, in this sense, is not just about obeying commands. It is about the **patterns we create in the ocean of existence**.


When our actions align with compassion and truth, our waves move in harmony with the deeper rhythm of the ocean. When our actions arise from hatred or ego, we create distorted patterns that bring suffering both to ourselves and to others.


This is why spiritual writers often described saints as radiating clarity, peace, or light. In modern metaphorical language one might say they live at a **higher spiritual frequency**—their lives resonate with the deeper structure of divine love.


---


## Sin as sickness


The Desert Fathers and many early theologians viewed sin not primarily as rebellion but as **disorder**.


Repeated selfish actions shape habits. Habits shape character. Character shapes consciousness.


Modern psychology confirms this insight. Our repeated behaviors literally reshape the brain and the emotional patterns through which we experience the world.


Thus both spiritual tradition and modern science converge on a simple idea: **we become what we practice**.


Holiness, then, is not merely moral compliance. It is the gradual restoration of the soul into harmony with love.


---


## The life review and the ripple effect


Near-death experience reports often describe something called a **life review**. People recount reliving events from their lives while simultaneously feeling the emotional impact their actions had on others.


Moments of kindness produce deep joy. Moments of cruelty or indifference bring painful awareness—not because of external condemnation but because the individual suddenly perceives the full ripple effect of their life.


If the ocean-and-waves analogy has any truth, this phenomenon becomes understandable. A life review would simply reveal the **true pattern of the waves we created**.


What we normally glimpse only partially—how our words affected another person, how a small act of compassion changed someone’s day—becomes suddenly visible in its entirety.


In that sense judgment might not primarily be a verdict. It may be **illumination**.


---


## God’s love and the cups we carry


Another metaphor helps clarify how divine love might be experienced differently by different people.


Imagine that God’s love is like an infinite ocean of water, while each human soul is like a cup dipped into that ocean.


Every cup is filled.


But cups come in different sizes.


Some souls have been expanded by humility, compassion, and openness. Others have been constricted by fear, resentment, or selfishness.


The ocean gives itself completely to every cup, yet each cup receives according to its **capacity**.


This image suggests that divine love is constant, while our experience of it depends on the **shape and openness of our souls**.


---


## Separation and spiritual frequency


In the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ, there are clear warnings about separation—images of sheep and goats, wise and foolish servants, doors that remain closed.


Within the framework we are exploring, such separation might be understood not merely as external punishment but as **a difference in spiritual resonance**.


Those who have learned to live in love experience divine reality as joy and communion. Those who cling to resentment, pride, or hatred experience the same reality as discomfort or even anguish.


In metaphorical terms, it is like waves moving at different frequencies within the same ocean.


The ocean is the same. The experience differs according to the pattern of the wave.


---


## The question of restoration


Some early Christian thinkers speculated that divine love might ultimately heal all souls. This view—often called universal restoration—remains debated within Christian theology.


Within the framework we have been exploring, one might imagine this possibility as a hypothesis.


If every soul eventually encounters the full reality of love and truth, and if humans are fundamentally created in the image of God, then perhaps even distorted waves might gradually learn to move again in harmony with the ocean.


Whether such restoration ultimately occurs is a question that remains mysterious.


But the important point is that **God’s love would remain constant throughout the process**. Every soul would encounter the same infinite ocean. The difference would lie in how fully each soul is able to receive and resonate with that love.


---


## Happiness as alignment with reality


This vision also intersects with the philosophy of happiness.


Ancient thinkers like Aristotle argued that true happiness comes from living in accordance with virtue—aligning one’s life with truth and goodness.


Christian spirituality deepens this idea by suggesting that the ultimate source of happiness is participation in divine love.


When we live with compassion, honesty, humility, and generosity, our inner life becomes coherent. When we live in resentment or greed, our inner life becomes fragmented.


Thus happiness is not merely pleasure or comfort. It is **harmony with the deepest structure of reality**.


---


## The contemplative insight


The modern contemplative writer Thomas Merton emphasized that spiritual awakening involves discovering our true self in God.


Beneath the layers of ego, fear, and social conditioning lies a deeper identity rooted in love.


The spiritual journey is the gradual uncovering of that true self—the expansion of the soul’s capacity to receive and reflect divine love.


---


## Rethinking the problem of mercy


Seen from this perspective, the original complaint about God’s mercy may arise from misunderstanding the nature of divine justice.


If mercy is simply leniency, justice appears compromised. If justice is only punishment, mercy appears insufficient.


But if divine love is the fundamental reality of the universe, then justice and mercy may be two aspects of the same process.


Justice reveals the truth of the waves we have created.

Mercy invites us to become new waves.


The purpose of life, then, may not simply be avoiding punishment or earning reward. It may be the gradual expansion of our capacity to participate in the infinite ocean of love from which we came.


And perhaps the deepest happiness available to human beings lies precisely there—in learning, slowly and imperfectly, to move in harmony with that ocean.


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#3 •••
@linate

Its not really about mercy or justice, its about competence.


God could have created a world where animals dont have to eat each other alive to survive. But he wasnt competent.

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#4 •••
@SatanLucy

The world was created by God in his image. Humans try to see the world in their image. Which is where the difference lies. No matter how hard humans try God is still in charge.

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#5 •••


# The Ocean of Love: Anologies of How Souls Grow, Transform, and Resonantly Participate in God’s Grace


Some non-believers struggle to reconcile the concept of God’s mercy. For some, He is **too merciful**, forgiving sinners; for others, **not merciful enough**, allowing suffering or judgment. This tension is not accidental. It reflects the deep paradox at the heart of human existence: **freedom, love, and moral consequence coexisting with infinite grace**. To explore it, we turn to analogy, mysticism, and contemporary understanding of happiness and near-death experiences—tools that have long helped the human mind and heart engage truths beyond literal description.


---


## God’s Love: The Ocean, the Fire, and the Light


One of the most powerful ways to imagine God’s love is as an **ocean**—limitless, omnipresent, and infinitely deep. Every human soul is a **cup**, filled to the brim according to its capacity. Some cups are large, shaped by openness, humility, and love; others are smaller, constrained by pride, fear, and attachment to selfishness.


God’s love touches all cups, believers and non-believers alike. Even souls estranged by sin—wandering in a spiritual wilderness—can occasionally experience its waves, glimpsing communion with others and moments of grace. In this sense, love is universal, though **full covenant participation** remains uniquely realized in the Body of Christ.


But God’s love is also like **refining fire and gold**. The human soul, like gold in the fire, is **tested, purified, and shaped** by life’s trials. Sin and suffering are not arbitrary; they are opportunities for transformation. The **pain of estrangement, the consequences of error, the struggles of human weakness** are refining forces, burning away illusions of self and leaving the soul more capable of receiving and reflecting divine love.


Similarly, the soul is like a **mirror reflecting light**. At first, the mirror is tarnished, clouded by ego, attachment, and fear. Gradually, through repentance, service, and love, the mirror is polished. As it becomes clearer, it reflects God’s light more fully, radiating love outward. Every act of compassion, every moment of humility, is a polishing stroke.


---


## Waves, Vibrations, and Spiritual Resonance


The soul’s inner state is dynamic. Spiritual life is **like waves moving through the ocean of God’s love**. Saints and spiritually mature individuals resonate at high vibrations, harmonizing with love and truth. Those mired in selfishness or sin resonate at lower vibrations, experiencing the same divine reality as painful exposure. Yet all waves touch the same ocean. Even a wave far from the shore may send ripples that influence others.


Modern science mirrors this metaphor. Positive psychology consistently finds that **lasting happiness correlates with love, compassion, forgiveness, and meaningful connection**. Likewise, near-death experiences often reveal that the soul’s measure is **how much love it embodies**, not mere ritual observance or doctrinal knowledge. Spiritual capacity—like your cup analogy—determines how fully one experiences divine love.


---


## Non-Believers, Grace, and the Possibility of Communion


The parable of the sheep and goats (Gospel of Matthew 25), as interpreted by John Chrysostom, emphasizes **love in action over identity**. Those who feed the hungry, welcome strangers, and visit the imprisoned are aligned with God’s love, even if they are unaware of Christ’s full revelation.


Early Christian thinkers like Gregory of Nyssa emphasized that **all souls are in process**, moving toward God at different rates. The sheep and goat qualities are tendencies, not fixed categories. In this light, non-believers may sometimes **approach the dwelling place of love**, participating in grace to the degree their hearts allow. Their cups may be smaller, their resonance lower, yet the ocean still reaches them. This analogy preserves orthodoxy: believers have a unique covenantal participation, but God’s love **touches all souls**.


---


## Transformation: From Glory to Glory


Paul describes this process beautifully:


> “And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory” (2 Corinthians 3:18).


Transformation is **gradual**. Each soul grows in capacity to receive love. Life, suffering, and spiritual practice are refining forces, enlarging the cup, polishing the mirror, and harmonizing the wave. Thomas Merton calls this the discovery of the **true self**, capable of loving beyond ego and fear. Desert Fathers would describe it as purification and illumination—**the journey from shadow into light**, from self-centeredness into communion with God.


---


## Spiritual Growth and Human Happiness


Here is where Christian spirituality, philosophy, and science converge. The traits that enlarge the spiritual cup—**compassion, humility, forgiveness, and generosity**—also maximize **human flourishing and happiness**. NDE accounts suggest the same: the soul’s alignment with love determines its experience of ultimate reality.


Thus, our analogies—the ocean, the cups, waves and vibrations, the refining fire, the mirror, and the light—are not merely poetic. They describe the **mechanics of spiritual transformation**, the cultivation of happiness, and the reception of divine love.


---


## Living in the Ocean


Ultimately, the human task is to learn to **resonate with the divine frequency**, to allow love to shape the soul into greater capacity. Every soul is touched by the infinite ocean; every mirror is polished, every gold tested, every wave rippling outward. Believers share a unique covenantal intimacy with God and each other, yet even the wandering, struggling, or estranged are **touched by grace**, invited to participate, however partially, in the dance of divine love.


In this vision, life is an invitation: to open the cup, polish the mirror, ride the waves, and enter the refining fire of love—not as punishment, but as transformation. Happiness is found not in clinging to self, but in **learning to reflect, embody, and share the infinite ocean of God’s love**.


---



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#6 •••
@linate

Kingdom of heaven is within (divine spark is in everyone. Well, everyone except bots created by demiurge).


the previous God (demiurge) screwed up. I am part of new group of Gods and I came to fix this world, and unlike some loser Gods, I believe in my success and competence.

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#7 •••
@linate
It seems like a lot of times non-believers can't be satisfied with God's mercy. Too merciful, angry. Not merciful enough, angry.

There is a good reason to understand why non-believers are not satisfied with God’s mercy. We have to start at the beginning when God’s chosen people were the Jews. The Jews were chosen because they faithfully accepted the 613 commandments given to them by God. God saved the Jews through Moses by escaping the Pharaoh’s judgement and entering their promised land. But the Jews were not a perfect model for God because for their survival their neighbours had to constantly be killed to reduce antisemitism. Their neighbours were envious of the Jews special standing with God and picked every opportunity to drive them out of their homeland.

God realized the little value his covenant of circumcision had with women. Even Mary did not care that God himself was uncircumcised and did not insist he under go the change.

God had to ignore the special status the Jews gave to pigs by not slaughtering them for food making the pig of a higher status among animals.

But that changed when the Jews rejected Jesus his only begotten son as their Messiah. This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.

The Jews demanded Jesus be crucified. But the Romans were the ones who crucified him. Yet God chose them to spread Christianity 300 years later because Constantine made Christianity the state religion. God had no choice but to follow a policy of mercy so he could embrace the new followers over the Jews that fell from his grace. This led to Christianity replacing Judaism as a universal religion and the Church replacing the temple destroyed by the Romans.

This brings us to the non-believers who have observed how those chosen by God betrayed him and yet he granted them mercy both the Jews who demanded Jesus be crucified and the Romans who crucified Jesus. But there has been little offered by God to the non-believers who had nothing to do with both those actions, but waited patiently for God to stop picking losers.

Living with the ocean of change might be the new direction for God as he recognizes. Those also serve who only stand and wait.


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#8 •••
@Debby
This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.


Does it say in the BIBLE that god "doubted" ? Are you saying that god thought he'd made a wrong decision?


Yet God chose them to spread Christianity 300 years later

I see. So god chose Hebrews and Jews to spread Christianity. just listen to yourself FFS

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#9 •••
@Stephen
Does it say in the BIBLE that god "doubted" ? Are you saying that god thought he'd made a wrong decision?

The Bible shows the switch the teachings of Paul changed from preaching to the Jews to reaching out to the gentiles who were originally banned from Judaism.

 see. So god chose Hebrews and Jews to spread Christianity. just listen to yourself FFS

You need to fix your reading comprehension.

Here is what I said.

But the Romans were the ones who crucified him. Yet God chose them to spread Christianity 300 years later because Constantine made Christianity the state religion.

it is clearly stated it was the Romans who were chosen to spread Christianity .

You can get help you improve your faith. But you cannot get help to complete your education without going back to school. I spend more time dealing with your poor education and poor reading skills than your lack of biblical knowledge.

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#10 •••
"Debby" Wrote: This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.


Stephen wrote: Does it say in the BIBLE that god "doubted" ? Are you saying that god thought he'd made a wrong decision?


"Debby" Wrote:The Bible shows the switch the teachings of Paul changed from preaching to the Jews to reaching out to the gentiles who were originally banned from Judaism.

You haven't shown us where in the BIBLE that god "doubted"?


And while you mention Paul, doesn't Paul tell his audience the that first five books of the BIBLE - the laws of Torah/ Old Testament- "are crap and rubbish"?




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#11 •••
@Stephen

"Debby" Wrote:The Bible shows the switch the teachings of Paul changed from preaching to the Jews to reaching out to the gentiles who were originally banned from Judaism.


You haven't shown us where in the BIBLE that god "doubted"?

Read what I posted. “the teachings of Paul changed from preaching to the Jews to reaching out to the gentiles who were originally banned from Judaism. No where did I say that God doubted.


And while you mention Paul, doesn't Paul tell his audience the that first five books of the BIBLE -  the laws of Torah/ Old Testament- "are crap and rubbish"?

Paul the Apostle did not call the first five books of the Bible (the Torah/Pentateuch) "crap" or "rubbish." 

While Paul wrote passionately that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than through "works of the law," he consistently held a high view of the Torah itself, calling it "holy, righteous, and good" (Romans 7:12) and stating that he "delights" in it (Romans 7:22).


Dont distort the Bible.

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#12 •••


Stephen wrote: You haven't shown us where in the BIBLE that god "doubted"?


Debby the thicko wrote:No where did I say that God doubted.



Debby the thicko wrote: This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.


HERE>> https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/qf/gods-mercy-and-impressions-of-non-believers-god-cant-win?page=1&comment_number=7


Debby the thicko wrote: Paul the Apostle did not call the first five books of the Bible (the Torah/Pentateuch) "crap" or "rubbish." 


Are you sure about that?


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#13 •••
@Stephen
Debby the thicko wrote: This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.

The evidence is there the church has replace the temple. Christianity has replaced Judaism the religion the Jews followed. Even the promised homeland has remained a dot in the map of the Middle East surrounded by Arab nations.


God even stopped sending his prophets to the Jews.

Malachi is recognized as the final prophet of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible

, delivering God's message around 430–450 B.C.E. before a 400-year period of silence leading up to John the Baptist. His ministry addressed the spiritual decay of Jews who returned from Babylonian exile. 


Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.

Debby the thicko wrote: Paul the Apostle did not call the first five books of the Bible (the Torah/Pentateuch) "crap" or "rubbish." 
Are you sure about that? 

Paul the Apostle did not call the first five books of the Bible (the Torah/Pentateuch) "crap" or "rubbish." 

While Paul wrote passionately that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than through "works of the law," he consistently held a high view of the Torah itself, calling it "holy, righteous, and good" (Romans 7:12) and stating that he "delights" in it (Romans 7:22).


Dont distort the Bible.


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#14 •••
Debby the thicko wrote: This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.

The evidence is there the church has replace the temple. Christianity has replaced Judaism the religion the Jews followed. Even the promised homeland has remained a dot in the map of the Middle East surrounded by Arab nations.


For the third time! I want you to show us where the BIBLE says god doubted. You can't deny that you wrote that, thickly.

Because you did. So stop lying AGAIN!!:

Debby the thicko wrote: This made God doubt his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.


7th line down HERE>> https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/qf/gods-mercy-and-impressions-of-non-believers-god-cant-win?page=1&comment_number=7



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#15 •••
@Stephen
For the third time! I want you to show us where the BIBLE says god doubted. You can't deny that you wrote that, thickly.

Follow the history of Judaism and Christianity. This could not have happened unless God doubted his original choice and allowed the switch. Why do you have a problem accepting fact .


The evidence is there the church has replace the temple. Christianity has replaced Judaism the religion the Jews followed. Even the promised homeland has remained a dot in the map of the Middle East surrounded by Arab nations.


God even stopped sending his prophets to the Jews.

Malachi is recognized as the final prophet of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible

, delivering God's message around 430–450 B.C.E. before a 400-year period of silence leading up to John the Baptist. His ministry addressed the spiritual decay of Jews who returned from Babylonian exile. 

Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.


Even Jesus changed his original message from:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


To,

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation





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#16 •••
For the third time! I want you to show us where the BIBLE says god doubted. You can't deny that you wrote that, thickly.

Follow the history of Judaism and Christianity. This could not have happened unless God doubted his original choice and allowed the switch. Why do you have a problem accepting fact .


So after denying /lying that you ever even said that "god doubted", you are repeating it . LOL

So if you are confident that "God Doubted his decision his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.", then simple show us where in the BIBLE god regretting and doubting .

OR just say that its not in the bible at all and that you made it up in your attempt to come across to anyone reading here that you are bible savvy , when you are nothing of the kind.


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#17 •••
@Stephen
So if you are confident that "God Doubted his decision his pick of the Jews as his chosen model and people.", then simple show us where in the BIBLE god regretting and doubting .

The evidence is there the church has replace the temple. Christianity has replaced Judaism the religion the Jews followed. Even the promised homeland has remained a dot in the map of the Middle East surrounded by Arab nations.


God even stopped sending his prophets to the Jews.

Malachi is recognized as the final prophet of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible

, delivering God's message around 430–450 B.C.E. before a 400-year period of silence leading up to John the Baptist. His ministry addressed the spiritual decay of Jews who returned from Babylonian exile. 

Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.


Even Jesus changed his original message from:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


To,

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation


These are all events that finally led to the switch from Jews to Christians.


Even Jesus warned the Jews this would happen.

Matthew 21:43 (The Parable of the Tenants):Jesus tells religious leaders, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit". This directly reflects the idea of a blessing (the Kingdom) being taken from one group and given to another based on loyalty and productivity.


Today we have over 2 billion Christians and about 14 million Jews. The switch is everywhere.


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#18 •••
@Debby
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


Indeed, something else that Christians cannot accept. Jesus was a Full blown Jew and his god was the Hebrew god Yahweh . And if the BIBLE is to be believed he was king of the JEWS not Christians. There were no Christians in Jesu's life time.

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#19 •••
@Stephen
Indeed, something else that Christians cannot accept. Jesus was a Full blown Jew and his god was the Hebrew god Yahweh . And if the BIBLE is to be believed he was king of the JEWS not Christians. There were no Christians in Jesu's life time.

After the Jews rejected Jesus and demanded that he be crucified. Jesus and his disciples reached out to the gentiles.


God even stopped sending his prophets to the Jews.

Malachi is recognized as the final prophet of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible

, delivering God's message around 430–450 B.C.E. before a 400-year period of silence leading up to John the Baptist. His ministry addressed the spiritual decay of Jews who returned from Babylonian exile. 

Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.


The Jews were called Christ killers. The Holocaust ended the influence of the Jews.

Even Jesus changed his original message from:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.



To,

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation


Christianity grew rapidly and eventually replaced Judaism. The Church replaced the temple.


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#20 •••
@Debby
THICKO WROTE: even Jesus changed his original message


Accept it thicko. You know nothing about that which you should know about.


Jesus changed nothing . The gospel writer may have Or Christian may have. But not god /Jesus.


I am the Lord, I change not. Malachi 3:6

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Numbers23:19



You keep arguing with your uncle Stephen. I'll learn you a thing or two about that which you should already. know




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#21 •••
@Stephen
Jesus changed nothing . The gospel writer may have Or Christian may have. But not god /Jesus.

Even Jesus changed his original message from:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


To,

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation


Even Jesus warned the Jews this would happen.

Matthew 21:43 (The Parable of the Tenants):Jesus tells religious leaders, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit". This directly reflects the idea of a blessing (the Kingdom) being taken from one group and given to another based on loyalty and productivity.


Today we have over 2 billion Christians and about 14 million Jews. The switch is everywhere.



Christianity grew rapidly and eventually replaced Judaism. The Church replaced the temple.


There might be another explanation for you mental state.

https://www.debatecraft.com/forum/c/religion/posts/pd/what-should-we-make-of-the-fact-the-bible-characters-thought-the-end-was-near?page=1&comment_number=13


Here you talk about having your kidney removed…nephrectomy.


A nephrectomy is the surgical removal of all (radical) or part (partial) of a kidney, usually performed under general anesthesia to treat kidney cancer, disease, or injury. Techniques include traditional open surgery or minimally invasive laparoscopic/robotic methods.


Mental illness, particularly depression and anxiety, is a common and often underrecognized consequence of kidney disease, which may necessitate kidney removal (nephrectomy). The removal of a kidney itself, often done for cancer, can lead to fear, anxiety, and in some cases, symptoms of trauma, especially if it leads to chronic pain or if the donor experiences guilt or grief. 



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#22 •••
@Debby
No matter how hard humans try God is still in charge.


Analogically correct Debs...Though GOD the magician was a hypothetical bloke that humans made in their own image just a few thousand years ago...Whereas the GOD principle is the overriding principle of universal initiation, progression and ultimate conclusion...A principle that was initiated many billions of years prior to human imagination...And whether or not we will see things through to their conclusion is impossible to say.


And even if there was an intergalactic super intelligence that seeded life on Earth...They just buggered off elsewhere, leaving material development to it's own devices and the mercy of the GOD principle.

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#23 •••
@Debby
Even Jesus changed his original message 


NOPE: Not if you believe that Jesus is also god from the beginning.


I am the Lord, I change not. Malachi 3:6

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Numbers23:19


More example on request.

God never changing his mind is rife throughout the bible, thickly.

Off you go now.


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#24 •••
@Stephen

Even Jesus changed his original message 


NOPE: Not if you believe that Jesus is also god from the beginning. 


I am the Lord, I change not. Malachi 3:6
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Numbers23:19

First Jesus said:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


Then:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation


Even you posted his out with the old and in with the new.

Indeed that's why he gave the OT the elbow and preached a "new one". Its as I told you on another thread when Jesus spoke about new heaven and a new earth I.E. an new age, it was out with the old and in with the new.

The fact that Christianity replaced Judaism and the gentiles replaced Jews . Is a historic fact.


Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.

There are over 2 billion Christians today and only about 14 million Jews.

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#25 •••
@Debby



God does not change his mind, if the bible is to be believed


Numbers:"God is not human, that he should lie,not a human being, that he should change his mind.


am the Lord, I change not. Malachi 3:6

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#26 •••
@Stephen
God does not change his mind, if the bible is to be believed 

Numbers:"God is not human, that he should lie,not a human being, that he should change his mind.

am the Lord, I change not. Malachi 3:6

This was before the Jews demanded Jesus be crucified. But everything changed after that.

First Jesus said:

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus states, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.


Then after his resurrection the change in his message.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and ...

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation



Matthew 21:43 (The Parable of the Tenants):Jesus tells religious leaders, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit". This directly reflects the idea of a blessing (the Kingdom) being taken from one group and given to another based on loyalty and productivity.


The fact that Christianity replaced Judaism and the gentiles replaced Jews . Is a historic fact.


Supersessionism, often termed "replacement theology," is the Christian belief that the Church has replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, with the New Covenant superseding the Mosaic covenant. It suggests the Church is the "New Israel," fulfilling biblical promises made to the Jewish people through Jesus.

There are over 2 billion Christians today and only about 14 million Jews.


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