Trying to figure out these relational virtues is a big reason we are in this life right?

Started by linate

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#1 •••

Ive been verbalizing more lately that a big reason we are on this earth is to figure out these relational virtues... love, forgiveness, generosity, and boundaries. Of course, these virtues are often tied to christianity but they do in fact have broader applicability to everyone, right? And another thing ive noticed on the purpose of life thing, is some some people focus on simply existing and partaking in life, and some are more focused on engagement... or as I call it 'being versus doing'. To me, 'doing' is more about virtues and loving and serving others, but I know thats often associated with Christianity but id think it has broader applicability to everyone? Others might focus on science or art or business or wide arraignment of missions and I can't say if you aint a saint you didnt achieve your mission. But I suspect these relational virtues and broader philosophies of life are at least partly applicable to everyone.

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#2 •••
@linate

those virtues arent "tied to Christianity". Christianity didnt even invent them.

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#3 •••
@linate
Ive been verbalizing more lately that a big reason we are on this earth is to figure out these relational virtues... love, forgiveness, generosity, and boundaries. 


Not if you have read Genesis for yourself. We were created as a slave race. Genesis 2:15


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#4 •••
@Stephen

Not really sure what linate was verbalizing this time...I tried to think of a response yesterday evening but I was somewhat flummoxed.



Selling England by the Pound...Classic Genesis.


I might just find Firth of Fifth on YouTube.

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#5 •••
@SergeantLynch
Selling England by the Pound


PM Gordon Brown certainly did, Serge.😒

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#6 •••
@Stephen

We are here to live life to the fullest and accept the blessings we have been endowed with.

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#7 •••
@Debby
We are here to live life to the fullest and accept the blessings we have been endowed with.


Stop talking bollocks.

What about children born with Cerebral Palsy at birth , and other crippling diseases, you absolute clown ?

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#8 •••
@linate
Trying to figure out these relational virtues is a big reason we are in this life right?


It seems to me relational virtues (love, forgiveness, generosity, and boundaries) aren't the meaning of life so much as prerequisites for living with other people.


I think it is fair to say living in groups is our nature, but our purpose is individually determined.


To me, 'doing' is more about virtues and loving and serving others, but I know thats often associated with Christianity but id think it has broader applicability to everyone?


While these virtues are often attributed to Christianity (by Christians) they predate the Biblical writers. There is broader applicability.


some some people focus on simply existing and partaking in life, and some are more focused on engagement... or as I call it 'being versus doing'.


This resonates. Life is a ride on the river. You can coast along and let the current do the work or take an active role in piloting. We probably all do both.

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Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. - Christopher Hitchens

#9 •••
@Stephen

Diseases do not proven humans from receiving God’s blessing and a better life in heaven.

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#10 •••

Yes. I think you're identifying something broader than Christianity, even though Christianity gives it an especially rich vocabulary and theological framework.


I’d separate **“what makes a life meaningful?”** into at least two dimensions:


### 1. Being vs. doing


There really is a longstanding tension here.


**Being** emphasizes experiencing and inhabiting life:


* appreciating existence

* relationships and companionship

* beauty, nature, pleasure, contemplation

* curiosity and learning

* simply being present rather than constantly trying to accomplish something


**Doing** emphasizes what you *give* to the world:


* creating

* helping

* raising or caring for people

* pursuing justice

* discovering things

* building institutions or businesses

* making art

* teaching

* serving

* taking responsibility for other people


Neither is obviously sufficient by itself. A person can spend their whole life *doing* and never really experience their life. Conversely, someone can become very good at experiencing life while contributing remarkably little beyond themselves.


Your formulation is interesting because you're putting **virtue at the center of doing** rather than merely achievement.


### 2. The relational virtues are unusually universal


Love, forgiveness, generosity, compassion, honesty, loyalty, humility, patience, courage, and appropriate boundaries aren't uniquely Christian concepts.


Christianity makes distinctive claims about them—particularly the radicality of forgiveness, universal love, love of enemies, grace, self-sacrifice, and the idea that love is ultimately the organizing principle of morality.


But you can arrive at much of the underlying insight from many directions.


A Buddhist can say compassion is fundamental.

An Aristotelian can talk about friendship and virtue.

A Stoic can emphasize justice, self-control, and concern for others.

A secular humanist can say human flourishing requires empathy, reciprocity, and respect.

A utilitarian can value generosity because it improves people's lives.

A Confucian can emphasize relationships, benevolence, and appropriate conduct.


And even without a formal philosophy, most people eventually encounter the same practical problems:


**How much should I give? How much should I forgive? When should I protect myself? What do I owe other people? How should I treat someone who has wronged me? What does love require when love becomes costly?**


That's why I think your inclusion of **boundaries** is particularly important.


"Love everyone" sounds beautiful until you encounter someone who exploits you. Then you discover that love and unlimited access aren't the same thing. Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation. Generosity doesn't mean allowing yourself to be consumed. Compassion doesn't require enabling destructive behavior.


So there is actually a whole *system* of relational virtues that have to be balanced:


**love ↔ boundaries**

**forgiveness ↔ accountability**

**generosity ↔ stewardship**

**compassion ↔ discernment**

**humility ↔ self-respect**

**loyalty ↔ truth**


That's applicable whether someone believes in God or not.


### And I think your point about "missions" is important


Someone might devote their life to curing cancer, producing great art, understanding the universe, building a company, raising children, improving government, or simply being a wonderful friend and neighbor.


I don't think you can reasonably say, *"You didn't become a saint, therefore you failed at life's purpose."*


But there is a deeper question underneath those missions:


**How did you pursue your mission?**


Two scientists can make the same discovery, but one can be generous, honest, humble, and concerned about humanity while the other is exploitative and narcissistic.


Two businesspeople can build equally successful companies, but one treats employees and customers as human beings while the other treats them purely as instruments.


Two artists can produce equally magnificent art, but one becomes increasingly loving and perceptive while the other becomes increasingly cruel.


So perhaps **mission and virtue are different dimensions of a good life**.


Your *mission* answers:


> **What am I trying to accomplish?**


Your *virtues* answer:


> **What kind of person am I becoming while I accomplish it?**


And I think that's a very powerful distinction.


You don't have to conclude that everybody has one predetermined cosmic mission. You can instead say that there are **universal conditions for pursuing almost any worthwhile mission well**.


That's where your relational virtues become especially interesting. They aren't necessarily everyone's *career*, *calling*, or *project*. They're more like the **moral grammar for participating in human life**.


And that may be why Christianity's emphasis on love can have such broad applicability even outside Christianity: it isn't necessarily saying that everyone needs to perform the same task. It's saying that **whatever task you undertake, there is a right and wrong way to relate to the people you encounter along the way.**


In that sense, I think your **being vs. doing** distinction could be expanded into something like:


> **Being asks, "How do I experience and inhabit this existence?" Doing asks, "What do I contribute to existence?" Virtue asks, "How do I relate to other beings while I'm here?"**


Those three questions together seem considerably more universal than any particular religious doctrine about life's purpose.


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#11 •••

Christianity does prioritize sacrifice fir the greatest good as the highest ordeal and delineates the right wsy to love and how to do it right with relational virtue. Other rekigiins might say these are good but they dont nake them the highest good


Yes — **with an important qualification**, I think that's a defensible way of distinguishing Christianity from many other traditions.


Christianity doesn't merely say *love, forgiveness, generosity, and self-sacrifice are good things*. It makes **self-giving love extraordinarily central to the definition of the good life itself**.


The Christian claim becomes something like:


> The highest form of human flourishing is not merely having a good life, but **loving God and other people rightly, even when doing so requires costly self-giving**.


And the paradigmatic example is Christ: love isn't merely a feeling or reciprocal exchange. It can involve suffering, forgiveness, serving someone who cannot repay you, and sacrificing your own interests for another's genuine good.


### That's different from simply having a list of virtues


Many philosophical and religious systems have concepts corresponding to compassion, generosity, forgiveness, restraint, justice, etc. But Christianity gives them a particularly strong **hierarchy**.


The New Testament's "greatest commandments" put love at the summit: love of God and love of neighbor. Paul can even say that without love, extraordinary spiritual accomplishments amount to essentially nothing.


And Christianity also makes a distinction between **real love and merely appearing loving**.


You can give someone money without loving them.

You can forgive someone while still maintaining a boundary.

You can sacrifice yourself for someone in a way that actually enables their destruction.

You can be "nice" because you're afraid of conflict rather than because you genuinely seek someone's good.


So Christian ethics is not simply:


**sacrifice = good.**


It's closer to:


**love → discern the genuine good → pursue that good appropriately → accept the cost when genuine love requires sacrifice.**


That's why your inclusion of **boundaries** actually fits surprisingly well with a sophisticated Christian account of love. Loving somebody doesn't necessarily mean giving them everything they want.


### And "sacrifice for the greatest good" needs one refinement


I'd hesitate to formulate Christianity as *"always maximize the greatest good"* in the same sense as utilitarianism.


Christianity isn't generally saying that you should calculate everyone's welfare and sacrifice yourself whenever doing so produces the largest numerical benefit.


The Christian idea is more **personal and relational**:


> Love seeks the genuine good of the other person, even when that love is costly to oneself.


Christ's sacrifice is therefore not simply valuable because it produces the greatest quantity of welfare. It's an expression of radically self-giving love.


That distinction matters because otherwise Christianity could become a philosophy of **self-erasure**, which it isn't supposed to be. Jesus' command to love your neighbor is paired with "as yourself." Christianity can demand extraordinary sacrifice, but it doesn't make the destruction of the self intrinsically virtuous.


### And this gets back to your broader "purpose of life" idea


I think you are onto a potentially useful distinction:


**Mission** asks:


> *What particular good am I here to accomplish?*


**Virtue** asks:


> *How should I relate to other people while accomplishing it?*


**Being** asks:


> *How should I experience and receive the gift of existence?*


Christianity can then make the very strong claim that **love is the highest organizing principle of all three**.


You might be a scientist, artist, parent, politician, businessperson, monk, teacher, volunteer—or someone whose major contribution is simply being a wonderful friend.


Christianity doesn't necessarily tell you that everyone has to perform the same *mission*.


It says, in effect:


**Whatever your mission is, learn to love rightly.**


And that is why I think your observation that these ideas have broader applicability is quite reasonable. A secular person doesn't have to accept Christian theology to recognize that **learning how to love, forgive, give, receive, set boundaries, reconcile, sacrifice appropriately, and seek other people's genuine good are central problems of being human**.


Christianity's distinctive contribution is arguably not inventing those problems, but saying:


**These aren't peripheral niceties. They are among the deepest things a human being can learn.**


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#12 •••
@linate

What is more remarkable is Christianity turned Judaism a religion of divide and conquer to put love at the very top.

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