K-Pop Demon Hunters Mafia - DP1

This is what makes me most suspicious of Thoth, not the supposedly TMI stuff others have pointed out - why breadcrumb an important character DP1 with no pressure? Seems more scum-motivated. Also find his oh-I-really-shouldn't-do-this way of outing Kohai as an apparently important character instead of just letting his soft stand unmolested. I think he might be 3P - solving the game genuinely but in a way which is indifferent to the anti-town implications of revealing information.

Speaking of which, there's information that I personally would like to know because it could confirm my suspicions about how the game is set up, but I'm not going to ask that it be shared because whatever gain I could get isn't worth informing scum. If Luna is town, something he said earlier might point in the direction I'm thinking of.

My soft is male.

And other things actors say in Viagra commercials

A thought just crossed my mind that I should probably better keep to myself, so I'll ask this instead: Do we think Magic is above including hidden abilities or role modifiers?

(Post #116) Hol' up. The OP just says that scum were given a fake claim. Where did Magic say anything about a role?

I asked him. He told me scum got a full claim. Feel free to ask yourself.

If that's not what you were getting at, I never claimed a role, just one of three characters.

And I recognize that. My point was that I don’t think Mharman gives scum a fake full claim that includes one of the three major heroines as the role.

A thought just crossed my mind that I should probably better keep to myself, so I'll ask this instead: Do we think Magic is above including hidden abilities or role modifiers?

Possible, just not something I’m really concerned with at this point. Mharman seems to have created this one pretty quickly just to get things moving again, so I doubt it, but it could still happen.

With a fake claim on the table and a seven-player game I'm not putting much stock in softs. If anything, scum would be incentivized to soft because they have nothing to fear and everything to gain. I personally love to do this as scum. This is what makes me most suspicious of Thoth, not the supposedly TMI stuff others have pointed out - why breadcrumb an important character DP1 with no pressure? Seems more scum-motivated. Also find his oh-I-really-shouldn't-do-this way of outing Kohai as an apparently important character instead of just letting his soft stand unmolested. I think he might be 3P - solving the game genuinely but in a way which is indifferent to the anti-town implications of revealing information.

The decision to soft his character that early did stand out to me as well, but again, I don’t really see a world in which scum get a full fake claim that includes one of the three major heroines of this movie. It’s not like there are a lot of named characters to draw from, so for him to be scum, we would have to believe that Mharman specifically chose to exclude one of these three from the player list and gifted it to scum as a fake claim with an associated role claim. Maybe this is just me getting into modpsych too much, but that seems excessive.

Considering what he softed (i.e. one of the three main characters of this movie), I doubt that it's something scum were given as a fake claim. It's possible that one of them just isn't in the game and Mharman gave scum the fake claim, but I'd consider that less likely than the possibility that the claim Kohai is giving is a fake claim. Just strikes me as a lot for Mharman to not only have created this game with a theme he isn't invested in only to nix one of the three female leads and then choose to hand it over as a full fake claim complete with role for scum.

If you believe this then maybe he’s just soft claiming the gender of his true character. Overall my point is that his softing of a female is NAI when we don’t know what the theme is. Maybe it’s 1-2 of the main girls vs everyone else

If you believe this then maybe he’s just soft claiming the gender of his true character. Overall my point is that his softing of a female is NAI when we don’t know what the theme is. Maybe it’s 1-2 of the main girls vs everyone else

His post was directly in response to my statement that we could expect those 3 characters - Rumi, Zoey and Mira - to be in the game. He said he was one of those 3. Either he's lying or he's one of them. He can't just be some random girl (and, frankly, there aren't a lot of named female characters in the movie to begin with).

And I don't buy that framing of the theme split. Again, as I've said a couple of times now, there are not a lot of named characters in this movie. Eliminating one or two of the main heroines effectively reduces the cast down to four or five characters total, and it's just weird to include one or two and exclude the other one or two from the game. Also, by that logic, why would Mharman have any reason to give scum a fake claim, let alone a full fake claim? Claiming one of those three is better cover than virtually any other claim I can think of.

We have about 4 hours left, so it's time to seek claims and eliminate someone.

Looking at the list of softclaims:

1. Lunatic - Female
2. Whiteflame - Female
3. Vader - Female
4. Kohai - Male
5. Pie - Male
6. Thoth - Female
7. RexFavilla - Male

I'm hesitant to target anyone who is claimed female. I get that I'm in that boat too, but we have good reason to believe that all 3 of the heroines are in this game. There is only one other named female character who has any real presence in the story - Celine, Rumi's adoptive mother - and that's why I'm at least willing to give Vader and Luna a pass for now, since they're effectively locking themselves into one of the lead three or Celine. She could be the fake claim, I'd find that pretty believable, but the risk of delving into that is uncovering one or more of the main trio, which I'd prefer not to do.

That leaves the remaining 3 softclaims, all male. There are a good number of male characters in the plot, so aside from Kohai, softclaiming male came off as both Rex and Pie giving themselves options. Kohai strongly implied what he is. Could be the fake claim, but considering who and what I believe him to be, I'm hesitant to push him at this point. As for Rex and Pie, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is Bobby, though that could also be a fake claim. There are a couple of other characters that they could be, though I'm much less convinced by those.

So I'm willing to get a full claim from either Rex or Pie at this point. They're the biggest black boxes of the group and getting claims from them is relatively low risk considering that it's unlikely to out a major character with a PR. If we do out who is Bobby, he's unlikely to be a PR since he's just the band's manager. As I'm concerned that Rex is going to be too inactive to get anything out of him before the DP ends:

Unvote

VTL Pie

Forgot to tag you.

His post was directly in response to my statement that we could expect those 3 characters - Rumi, Zoey and Mira - to be in the game. He said he was one of those 3. Either he's lying or he's one of them. He can't just be some random girl (and, frankly, there aren't a lot of named female characters in the movie to begin with).

Okay, this goes back to the point I think REF brought up, that he was trigger happy to soft claim. I think you’re discounting the likelihood scum were given one of the girls as a fake claim. I do this in my games all the time, and I think Mharman does as well. I’d have to go back and look at the archives tho.

And I don't buy that framing of the theme split. Again, as I've said a couple of times now, there are not a lot of named characters in this movie. Eliminating one or two of the main heroines effectively reduces the cast down to four or five characters total, and it's just weird to include one or two and exclude the other one or two from the game. Also, by that logic, why would Mharman have any reason to give scum a fake claim, let alone a full fake claim?

Like you said if there is such a small pool of claims it makes sense to give scum fake claims even if the claim is good. Like if the split is the 2 of the main girls vs everyone else, then it makes sense to give the fake claims. I think you’re buying too much into this modpsyche argument.

Claiming one of those three is better cover than virtually any other claim I can think of.

So again, the girls are either fake claims or it’s their true claim and the theme could be the girls vs everyone else.

So I'm willing to get a full claim from either Rex or Pie at this point. They're the biggest black boxes of the group and getting claims from them is relatively low risk considering that it's unlikely to out a major character with a PR. If we do out who is Bobby, he's unlikely to be a PR since he's just the band's manager. As I'm concerned that Rex is going to be too inactive to get anything out of him before the DP ends:

I’ll full claim if there’s enough people who want it, but Thoth is clearly the scummiest person on the table. There’s 3 people here who find him scummy—Pie, REF, Lunatic.

Let me ask you this question. What behavioral reason do you have to townread Thoth? Cause otherwise you’re just going off an imo weak modpsyche argument

Okay, this goes back to the point I think REF brought up, that he was trigger happy to soft claim. I think you’re discounting the likelihood scum were given one of the girls as a fake claim. I do this in my games all the time, and I think Mharman does as well. I’d have to go back and look at the archives tho.

I'd be interested to see examples, particularly of games with this small of a character pool to draw from. I've excluded main characters from my roster before, but a) those were in games with much larger pools to draw from, b) I wouldn't then proceed to give scum full knowledge that a major character isn't in the game along with a role claim for them.

Like you said if there is such a small pool of claims it makes sense to give scum fake claims even if the claim is good. Like if the split is the 2 of the main girls vs everyone else, then it makes sense to give the fake claims. I think you’re buying too much into this modpsyche argument.

I've already responded to the possibility of the split leaving any of the main trio as scum, which if anything seems less likely based on the small pool of characters to draw from, though... are you now thinking that the form a two-person scum team? I thought you believed it was likely one scum, one TP, in which case, why would the girls be split into separate factions?

So again, the girls are either fake claims or it’s their true claim and the theme could be the girls vs everyone else.

I don't get why you're pluralizing this. There's one fake claim. Mharman clarified that. So you have three choices:

A) there are multiple members of Huntr/x (the lead 3 heroines) who are scum/TP and one was given a fake claim anyway despite coming in with a claim that would instantly be townread.

B) there is one member of Huntr/x who is scum/TP and the rest are absent from the game, meaning whoever the other scum/TP is was given the fake claim.

C) scum/TP were given a fake claim of a member of Huntr/x and the rest of Huntr/x is not in the game or town.

The first doesn't make sense to me. I don't know why Mharman goes out of his way to give scum a fake claim if he's giving them a main character as their actual claim. I have more reason to believe it's not the second or third. I get that you don't have that information, but even from where you're sitting, for the second, you'd have to believe that one of the three members of Huntr/x isn't even a fake claim in this game, let alone a character (again, in a game with very few named characters), and for the third, you'd have to believe that two members of Huntr/x were left out of the game entirely. I don't buy it.

I’ll full claim if there’s enough people who want it, but Thoth is clearly the scummiest person on the table. There’s 3 people here who find him scummy—Pie, REF, Lunatic.

Since two of those people - you and Rex - are ones I'd like claims from, that doesn't sway me.

Let me ask you this question. What behavioral reason do you have to townread Thoth? Cause otherwise you’re just going off an imo weak modpsyche argument

I don't think the modpsyche argument is weak and you've largely avoided responding to the meat of it, but the only thing that's really set me off at all about Thoth's behavior is his decision to softclaim that he's a member of Huntr/x. That's also the strongest reason why I townread him, so a pretty weak behavioral concern loses out theme knowledge/modpsych for me.

I'd be interested to see examples, particularly of games with this small of a character pool to draw from. I've excluded main characters from my roster before, but a) those were in games with much larger pools to draw from, b) I wouldn't then proceed to give scum full knowledge that a major character isn't in the game along with a role claim for them.

I’ll find em when I get home. Honestly the theme could simply be main characters vs minor characters if we look at if from that front. I distinctly remember giving a major character as a fake claim from a previous game. I just have to find it.

I've already responded to the possibility of the split leaving any of the main trio as scum, which if anything seems less likely based on the small pool of characters to draw from, though... are you now thinking that the form a two-person scum team? I thought you believed it was likely one scum, one TP, in which case, why would the girls be split into separate factions?

I don’t know anything about the theme and I haven’t done basically zero research besides looking up the gender of my character just to be sure. I just looked up the list of main characters and there are like 14:

Abby Saja

Baby Saja

Bobby

Celine

Derpy & Susie

Gwi-Ma

Healer Han

Jinu

Mi-yeong Ryu

Mira

Mystery Saja

Romance Saja

Rumi

Zoey

You’re argument has a couple of weak points:

A) Mharman would only include main characters

B) Mharman wouldn’t give scum a strong fake claim in a tiny game

C) The girls can’t be a scum team, TP or whatever (I need to more research to see if this is a possibility)

Idk what the theme split could be. But that doesn’t mean it’s impossible that one of the main girls could be scum or be given as a fake claim.

I don't get why you're pluralizing this. There's one fake claim. Mharman clarified that. So you have three choices:

Where did he say that?

A) there are multiple members of Huntr/x (the lead 3 heroines) who are scum/TP and one was given a fake claim anyway despite coming in with a claim that would instantly be townread.

Well that’s the point of a fake claim right? Make someone townread?

B) there is one member of Huntr/x who is scum/TP and the rest are absent from the game, meaning whoever the other scum/TP is was given the fake claim.

Very possible.

C) scum/TP were given a fake claim of a member of Huntr/x and the rest of Huntr/x is not in the game or town.

Also possible.

The first doesn't make sense to me. I don't know why Mharman goes out of his way to give scum a fake claim if he's giving them a main character as their actual claim.

Because theme still matters. If there are only 2 girls out of the 3 clearly, they are scum.

I have more reason to believe it's not the second or third. I get that you don't have that information, but even from where you're sitting, for the second, you'd have to believe that one of the three members of Huntr/x isn't even a fake claim in this game, let alone a character (again, in a game with very few named characters), and for the third, you'd have to believe that two members of Huntr/x were left out of the game entirely. I don't buy it.

You’re making too many assumptions based on your own character it seems like. I’m not going to expand on this, but you’re coming from a narrow POV of the fact that all 3 of the girls are in the game AND are town. That’s just too easy and it forms a solid town block of 3 who will ALWAYS win. That’s against balance in general.

Since two of those people - you and Rex - are ones I'd like claims from, that doesn't sway me.

Unless you think the exact scum team is me and REF, or any combo of 2/3, then there’s 2 townies here who are wanting Thoth to full claim here. So I do think it’s significant.

I don't think the modpsyche argument is weak and you've largely avoided responding to the meat of it, but the only thing that's really set me off at all about Thoth's behavior is his decision to softclaim that he's a member of Huntr/x. That's also the strongest reason why I townread him, so a pretty weak behavioral concern loses out theme knowledge/modpsych for me.

What makes it “weak.” You haven’t bothered to explain that when we literally caught him as scum in the previous game where he literally TMI’ed the whole game lol. I’d say it’s pretty strong especially if he just got caught doing it in the previous game.

Where yall at.

Vote Count

Thoth (2/4) - Kohai, Pie

Whiteflame (1/4) - Thoth

Pie (1/4) - Whiteflame

1 hr, 20 mins remaining

I’ll find em when I get home. Honestly the theme could simply be main characters vs minor characters if we look at if from that front. I distinctly remember giving a major character as a fake claim from a previous game. I just have to find it.

Doesn't seem like we'll have enough time this DP to manage this, but I'll be interested to see next DP.

Abby Saja

Baby Saja

Bobby

Celine

Derpy & Susie

Gwi-Ma

Healer Han

Jinu

Mi-yeong Ryu

Mira

Mystery Saja

Romance Saja

Rumi

Zoey

So there are 3 Sajas on that list, none of whom get actual names and all of whom we would expect to be in this game together if they were here. Highly doubtful given that all three of the claimed male players would have to fall into the same category or Mharman would have to have selected one or two at random to include for reasons I can't fathom. Also highly doubt Mi-yeong Ryu, who is barely a character, basically just a part of Rumi's backstory as her birth mother. The rest I agree with, but you'll note two full demons on the remaining list (Jinu and Gwi-Ma), who both would fit much better into the two scum setup or the one scum, one TP setup, given that they have distinct aims in the plot. Setting that aside, though, that's 9 characters. Not a lot of wiggle room there.

You’re argument has a couple of weak points:

A) Mharman would only include main characters

B) Mharman wouldn’t give scum a strong fake claim in a tiny game

C) The girls can’t be a scum team, TP or whatever (I need to more research to see if this is a possibility)

A) That's a pretty blatant misreading of my point. I didn't say he would only include main characters, I said he was likely to focus on named characters, and I think he'll also focus on anyone that actually plays a role in the plot. That isn't a lot of characters.

B) That's not my point, either. I didn't say Mharman wouldn't give scum a strong fake claim. I said he's unlikely to give this specific one - an excluded member of Huntr/x - as a fake claim along with a role claim. That would be a step above anything I've seen from him.

C) Addressed this later, so I'll cover it there.

I don't get why you're pluralizing this. There's one fake claim. Mharman clarified that. So you have three choices:

Where did he say that?

...The OP, dude. Not hard to find. He said "Info: Mafia was given a fake claim."

Well that’s the point of a fake claim right? Make someone townread?

My point with this scenario is that the claim itself would be townread. Why give scum a fake claim when their actual claim is very likely to be townread? I get that you're sussing it, but sussing one of the MCs out the gate is not the usual response. You say later that "If there are only 2 girls out of the 3 clearly, they are scum," but a) that's not true, there are other two character pairings that could clearly be delineated like that (see my point about the two outlying demons on your list, plus Derpie & Susie who could be separate characters), and b) because you don't know that there are only 2 girls out of 3. I don't know why you're assuming that to be the case.

B) there is one member of Huntr/x who is scum/TP and the rest are absent from the game, meaning whoever the other scum/TP is was given the fake claim.

Very possible.

C) scum/TP were given a fake claim of a member of Huntr/x and the rest of Huntr/x is not in the game or town.

Also possible.

Hard disagree on both fronts, and your later response is just baffling:

You’re making too many assumptions based on your own character it seems like. I’m not going to expand on this, but you’re coming from a narrow POV of the fact that all 3 of the girls are in the game AND are town. That’s just too easy and it forms a solid town block of 3 who will ALWAYS win. That’s against balance in general.

Your perspective, the one you're using to make this entire argument, is that there must necessarily be only 2 members of Huntr/x in the game, and it sounds like the only reason you're taking that view is, wait for it, modpsych. You don't believe that Mharman would create a game where players could form a town block simply by claiming that they are a member of Huntr/x, which is beyond me. Players clearly have a reason to keep that information hidden. They aren't going to reveal that just because it could potentially create a town block, particularly if one of those players could, as you put it, just have a fake claim of one of these three characters. I'm not nixing the possibility that scum have this fake claim, I'm wondering why you think it's plausible for Mharman to have setup this game entirely excluding (as both a real character and a fake claim) one or more characters from Huntr/x, which scenarios 2 and 3 would require. That's beyond me, man.

Unless you think the exact scum team is me and REF, or any combo of 2/3, then there’s 2 townies here who are wanting Thoth to full claim here. So I do think it’s significant.

I think it's entirely plausible it's you and Rex, and I haven't written off Luna entirely. So while the number is significant, I can't say I'm impressed.

What makes it “weak.” You haven’t bothered to explain that when we literally caught him as scum in the previous game where he literally TMI’ed the whole game lol. I’d say it’s pretty strong especially if he just got caught doing it in the previous game.

He TMI's literally every game I've seen him in, so that doesn't push me one way or the other. I agree, he does it a lot, but that's not going to be reason enough for me to seek his lynch.

Not sure why none of you are posting with only about an hour left in the DP. I'll stick around and hopefully we can get something done, but this is already looking like a NL. I'll state up front that I'm not good with lynching Thoth blind of his role at minimum, and he remains a tertiary concern for me at worst.

15 minutes

Yep, NL ahead. Guess we’re back to doing this DP1…

In case I perish during the night, please take my words to heart. I don’t really have anything to add without giving my character away, so let’s make the most of the fact that we have the maximum possible number of night actions. Act wisely.

The DP has ended in a no-lynch! Get your night actions in! You have 24 hours.