Amber Mafia - DP2

A-Brand wrote:

A-Caine wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

Gonna be busy at work today, catching up in the meantime

A-Oberon wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

You clearly ignored what I actually stated in my reply to you. I said that I would claim if someone other than you wanted me to do so right away. After I made that post, no one else did.

That doesn't explain anything.. You already were at L-2, with 2 direct claim requests and 1 indirect claim request.. Saying "well I refused to claim and then nothing happened" doesn't explain why you refused to claim..

Two different people DID IN FACT ask you to claim, as I linked in the post.. "I would claim if two different people wanted me to".. That's a direct quote.. you can't weasel out of this..

The entire point of asking you to claim before you've caught up is to make sure you haven't had time to be filled in by your scum buddies.. Saying you "haven't caught up" isn't a reason for not claiming..

"I didn't claim because I have a PR" that defeats the point of pressured claims.. If vanillas claim and PRs don't that moots the point of hiding PRs.. Town doesn't know if you have a PR or not.. If you claim a PR you clear yourself.. And now that I think about it, we live in a post-Janitor world, so claiming does nothing now.. I don't want you to claim anymore, but I still need you to explain why you didn't claim.

Listen, you and I just have fundamentally different approaches to the game. I understand that the meta on this site is very heavy on pushing for claims. I understand this, but I've grown to dislike it. That's why I like Anticlaim. I remember in Deltarune Mafia when WF basically had to out himself as the Caroler, and Rex criticized the town, saying that he wouldn't have even claimed in that scenario and would have forced the town to either lynch him or give up on making him claim to prove a point. And of course, there was Helz in the last game. And frankly, I respect this kind of approach. I'm not quite so extreme about it, I still would have preferred not dying on D1. But I didn't think that me outing my role was pro-town. You can like it or you can dislike it, but that's all I have to say on the matter

There are pros and cons to asking for claim. The thing is in role madness game or vanilla games it can prevent a PR from being ML’d.

I get that, I do. But I don't like how the meta on this site often ends up with PRs being forced to out themselves. I understand it can't be avoided 100% of the time (excluding all Vanilla games), but I feel like it happens too often here

Agreed. Maybe I should host a mountainous game. The site wouldjt know how to play

VTL: A-Fiona

Fiona or Byes should be the lynch.

A-Caine wrote:

VTL: A-Fiona

Fiona or Byes should be the lynch.

Whats with the focus on Bleys? They already said they'd be back tonight and didn't Mag already say he'd replace if need be? This is just lazy at best

A-Brand wrote:

A-Caine wrote:

VTL: A-Fiona

Fiona or Byes should be the lynch.

Whats with the focus on Bleys? They already said they'd be back tonight and didn't Mag already say he'd replace if need be? This is just lazy at best

Problem with Bleys isn’t just his inactivity. His pushes yesterday were truly godawful.

A-Gerard wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

I'm here, meant to be on earlier, probably not going to be on for super long since it's been kind of a crazy weekend for me, I'm tired, and I regret signing up for this game a little bit, but I'll participate as much as I can. Responding to a few posts first.

A-Gerard wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

I'm a little busy this afternoon, will be more active later tonight. Three dead already + one of them being janitored is unfortunate. I will say that I largely agree with Pie's final reads list in his will. Going to ask everyone a question in the meantime: why do you think Julian was the NK target?

You got lucky last day phase. Why shouldn’t we lynch you?

If you sus me, that's your prerogative, but I am not the only person here with good reason to sus. Fiona has been scarcely present this game, Bleys has done nothing to impress me (though I'll give him a little leeway for now given what he's already said this DP) and Caine's EoD behavior was very strange imo. Why should I be lynched as opposed to anyone else?

"People are just as scummy as me" isn't a great defense. For all I know they are your scum partners.

Missed this post. I disagree with the idea that everyone else I mentioned is "just as scummy as me". I think Fiona is objectively worse, probably Bleys as well, but I already said I'll leave them alone until they return/get replaced. What even is there to say in Fiona's defense?

A-Caine wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

A-Caine wrote:

VTL: A-Fiona

Fiona or Byes should be the lynch.

Whats with the focus on Bleys? They already said they'd be back tonight and didn't Mag already say he'd replace if need be? This is just lazy at best

Problem with Bleys isn’t just his inactivity. His pushes yesterday were truly godawful.

It's not that I necessarily disagree, but he's likely going to either return or get replaced today, so why even consider him an option until then when Fiona is a perfectly good alternative?

A-Caine wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

A-Caine wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

Gonna be busy at work today, catching up in the meantime

A-Oberon wrote:

A-Brand wrote:

You clearly ignored what I actually stated in my reply to you. I said that I would claim if someone other than you wanted me to do so right away. After I made that post, no one else did.

That doesn't explain anything.. You already were at L-2, with 2 direct claim requests and 1 indirect claim request.. Saying "well I refused to claim and then nothing happened" doesn't explain why you refused to claim..

Two different people DID IN FACT ask you to claim, as I linked in the post.. "I would claim if two different people wanted me to".. That's a direct quote.. you can't weasel out of this..

The entire point of asking you to claim before you've caught up is to make sure you haven't had time to be filled in by your scum buddies.. Saying you "haven't caught up" isn't a reason for not claiming..

"I didn't claim because I have a PR" that defeats the point of pressured claims.. If vanillas claim and PRs don't that moots the point of hiding PRs.. Town doesn't know if you have a PR or not.. If you claim a PR you clear yourself.. And now that I think about it, we live in a post-Janitor world, so claiming does nothing now.. I don't want you to claim anymore, but I still need you to explain why you didn't claim.

Listen, you and I just have fundamentally different approaches to the game. I understand that the meta on this site is very heavy on pushing for claims. I understand this, but I've grown to dislike it. That's why I like Anticlaim. I remember in Deltarune Mafia when WF basically had to out himself as the Caroler, and Rex criticized the town, saying that he wouldn't have even claimed in that scenario and would have forced the town to either lynch him or give up on making him claim to prove a point. And of course, there was Helz in the last game. And frankly, I respect this kind of approach. I'm not quite so extreme about it, I still would have preferred not dying on D1. But I didn't think that me outing my role was pro-town. You can like it or you can dislike it, but that's all I have to say on the matter

There are pros and cons to asking for claim. The thing is in role madness game or vanilla games it can prevent a PR from being ML’d.

I get that, I do. But I don't like how the meta on this site often ends up with PRs being forced to out themselves. I understand it can't be avoided 100% of the time (excluding all Vanilla games), but I feel like it happens too often here

Agreed. Maybe I should host a mountainous game. The site wouldjt know how to play

For me its less that I do not like it, and more that I think its awful play when done without reason. There is plenty of setups and situations where mass claims make sense. In this specific game with no trackers and maybe a 1 shot role cop its just flatly harmful for the town in multiple ways with no real benefit.

A-Gerard wrote:

Gonna be hard not to suspect people like Cain, Brand and Llewella for that who have been openly against this and complaining about it the whole time

I have been complaining about the angleshooting. Not the anon stuff. I have bantered with the mod a bit about the anon stuff but none of it was negative. More just me giggling at how hard the community is struggling to get use to an anon game.

A-Oberon is self resolving. I do not see a reason we should be voting there.

I dont see the logic of saying Rand is 100% clear if Oberon is blackmailed. 3p could very well still exist.

That sets the Mafia team at specifically an Illusionist/Janitor and a Blackmailer.

Also of note that if the Blackmailer gets a kill off they can not blackmail again. So they would be essentially vanilla mafia unless they got promoted to Godfather/Lord of Chaos

I am still a bit stuck on Lord of Chaos existing in the game. Should probably acknowledge there is no logical reason to assume that other than host meta understanding where Mag learned to play mafia and what this setup is mimicking.

I want to point out again if Oberon is lying. He will flip [and if he's that role that steals], we will have literally 0 idea

I am on him for 2 reasons.

1 because he admitted to not being someone and I dont think i can buy that given his typing patterns and how that mod kill post looks. I think he was lying.

And 2 because I really I dont buy that he would frame the wording as mod kill and then immediately adjust it after the mod corrected that statement.

I could be overthinking it but I really dislike this as its not a freaking mod kill and I dont see someone with any experience wording it in that way

The earlier conversation about the votes is interesting.

9 alive. Assuming 3-4 scum/non town.

8 alive assuming Oberon is not lying about the BM issue. (I see no possible reason to lie there)

1 Misslynch + 1 night kill puts us at 6p. So Mylo or potential Lylo today from the info we have.

So everyones favorite subject- Claims

At this point I think Regent should claim.

Jailor existing means they can be protected. Jailor should not claim.

1 shot Alignment cop / Role cop should also claim. If you exist and used your shot your VT now and that result would be critical

A-Random wrote:

I want to point out again if Oberon is lying. He will flip [and if he's that role that steals], we will have literally 0 idea

I am on him for 2 reasons.

1 because he admitted to not being someone and I dont think i can buy that given his typing patterns and how that mod kill post looks. I think he was lying.

And 2 because I really I dont buy that he would frame the wording as mod kill and then immediately adjust it after the mod corrected that statement.

I could be overthinking it but I really dislike this as its not a freaking mod kill and I dont see someone with any experience wording it in that way

I have 3 points there

1- Dude is self resolving. They flip or we handle them tommorow. I don't see scum going all in for such little reason

2- I can see someone viewing a mod judgment on a complicated role like Blackmailer as "The mod is killing me aka mod killed" when spoken of with little thought. The timing of it was bad with the mod enforcing the anon rules but I can see the phrasing being an innocent mistake.

3- We can loose the game today 100%. We need to flip a wolf today.

Unless Julian was specifically our Jailor I do not think we are in the worst shape if we handle this right.

Regent will be confirmed town unless Mafia wants to CC

Jailor is extremely likely town. Gives us protection to regent with RB ability and is semi confirmed if revealing

Escort less likely with jailor existing. Leaves Coroner/1 shot cop. 1 shot cop claims we get info on 2 slots. Having 3/9 sorted shooting at 50/50 before analysis we should be in decent shape for a mylo.

These were the type of posts I was looking for from Llewella all day yesterday. I’m good with town reading them.

I like Random, Lewella, and am moving them to a town pile for now. I think Random is wrong in his analysis of Oberon but I feel it comes from a Town place and I don’t think they would be drawing attention to the disguised as scum, and themselves. I think he genuinely thinks it is a slip and is tunneling it a bit. I get it but I disagree.

POE is Deidre, brand, Caine, Fiona, Bleys. Oberon too but he self resolves.

Bleys will likely be replaced so we can focus them later. I have a suspect who I think the Jailer is based on what pie said in his obituary but I’ll keep that close to

home for now. I think we lynch between Deidre brand cane and Fiona though and we are bound to hit one scum today. I’d be very surprised based on voting tendencies and participation if all of them are town.

Lets please not hunt for the jailor. That specific role should stay hidden today imo

If someone was black mailed and violated a condition of their black mail, would you tell them they are going to die or would it just happen automatically?

A-Llewella wrote:

A-Random wrote:

I want to point out again if Oberon is lying. He will flip [and if he's that role that steals], we will have literally 0 idea

I am on him for 2 reasons.

1 because he admitted to not being someone and I dont think i can buy that given his typing patterns and how that mod kill post looks. I think he was lying.

And 2 because I really I dont buy that he would frame the wording as mod kill and then immediately adjust it after the mod corrected that statement.

I could be overthinking it but I really dislike this as its not a freaking mod kill and I dont see someone with any experience wording it in that way

I have 3 points there

1- Dude is self resolving. They flip or we handle them tommorow. I don't see scum going all in for such little reason

2- I can see someone viewing a mod judgment on a complicated role like Blackmailer as "The mod is killing me aka mod killed" when spoken of with little thought. The timing of it was bad with the mod enforcing the anon rules but I can see the phrasing being an innocent mistake.

3- We can loose the game today 100%. We need to flip a wolf today.

This is not self resolving and we could lose today. That's exactly my point. That claim allows him to stay alive and even we are going tomorrow. It resets the read entirely. Self resolving implies he does not have an out. He has an out and motivation to stall and even if he ends up dead. We can't prove he's actually dead. We also can just outright lose.

I dont think im shaking the wording of him being modkilled and course correcting after the mod corrected it.

I entirely can see a world where they have a win con today and this is a stall out for that wincon as well

A-Llewella wrote:

Lets please not hunt for the jailor. That specific role should stay hidden today imo

I am keeping that info to myself like I said. Agree there is 0 reason oust it, but it factors into my read of someone a bit is all.

Random I do town read from their Oberon push. While I do not agree with them and I do not see it as making them 'confirmed town' given 3p exists I see it as much more likely than not town.

In this situation if they were mafia pushing to eliminate Oberon given mafia would know the blackmail target it just makes no sense putting them between town or 3p.

Weird world potential of Mafia making a very strange play but not worth considering that today imo. I agree that Oberon and Random should not be considered today.

Who would you be open to lynching today? If outside of the people I tagged who and why?

I have no idea how no one is even bothered by both the timing and wording of that

"Well boys im being modkilled"

Luna asks about it and then he course corrects. Yes if could be blackmail and bad timing but no one even considering this as an option when it's possible is annoying especially if there is a wincon today.

If I admit that im wrong and everyone wants to townlock Oberon then the next target imo is Caine.

Hes been all over the place and a vt claim.

A-Random wrote:

This is not self resolving and we could lose today. That's exactly my point. That claim allows him to stay alive and even we are going tomorrow. It resets the read entirely. Self resolving implies he does not have an out. He has an out and motivation to stall and even if he ends up dead. We can't prove he's actually dead. We also can just outright lose.

I dont think im shaking the wording of him being modkilled and course correcting after the mod corrected it.

I entirely can see a world where they have a win con today and this is a stall out for that wincon as well

I am much less interested in their win condition and much more interested in ours. I acknowledge its possible they went wild FPS going all in as mafia but thats such an odd extreme play when they would have simply been safe chilling under the radar today. Its super unlikely.

And if 3p we kinda want them on our side if possible given our situation anyways. That specific one your mentioning is a huge problem for the mafia team as well. Today we specifically need to kill a mafia member and I just see very low chance in that slot.

Actually thats wrong. Mafia would be motivated not to lynch Oberon.

Caine is prob a town lock and stupid

A-Random wrote:

A-Llewella wrote:

A-Random wrote:

I want to point out again if Oberon is lying. He will flip [and if he's that role that steals], we will have literally 0 idea

I am on him for 2 reasons.

1 because he admitted to not being someone and I dont think i can buy that given his typing patterns and how that mod kill post looks. I think he was lying.

And 2 because I really I dont buy that he would frame the wording as mod kill and then immediately adjust it after the mod corrected that statement.

I could be overthinking it but I really dislike this as its not a freaking mod kill and I dont see someone with any experience wording it in that way

I have 3 points there

1- Dude is self resolving. They flip or we handle them tommorow. I don't see scum going all in for such little reason

2- I can see someone viewing a mod judgment on a complicated role like Blackmailer as "The mod is killing me aka mod killed" when spoken of with little thought. The timing of it was bad with the mod enforcing the anon rules but I can see the phrasing being an innocent mistake.

3- We can loose the game today 100%. We need to flip a wolf today.

This is not self resolving and we could lose today. That's exactly my point. That claim allows him to stay alive and even we are going tomorrow. It resets the read entirely. Self resolving implies he does not have an out. He has an out and motivation to stall and even if he ends up dead. We can't prove he's actually dead. We also can just outright lose.

I dont think im shaking the wording of him being modkilled and course correcting after the mod corrected it.

I entirely can see a world where they have a win con today and this is a stall out for that wincon as well

Do you think Oberon is mafia or 3P? If he's a 3P, which one? If he's mafia, do you actually believe they blackmailed one of their own, assuming that would even be allowed? If not and this is a Mafia gambit... What's the gambit, exactly? How does this work in the mafia's favor and how does Oberon have an out?

I believe if he's doing it. Its whatever role allows him to yoink someone's account as he would want to flip dead

Would benefit him as scum or mafia. Causes chaos and could steal a heavily town read persons account. Again j could be overthinking but a stall tactic isn't out of the question.

A-Gerard wrote:

Who would you be open to lynching today? If outside of the people I tagged who and why?

Fiona for sure, maybe Bleys depending on if they come back/get replaced and what happens if they do. Caine is kind of all over the place in a way that feels very sus. Deirdre is behaviorally null, but leans scum by PoE. Not my first choice for a lynch, tho. So yeah, basically the same PoE on my end aside from excluding myself from the list for obvious reasons.

A-Random wrote:

I believe if he's doing it. Its whatever role allows him to yoink someone's account as he would want to flip dead

So, Disguiser then? But that doesn't work tho, because the Disguiser kills at night and flips in the morning. If Oberon has actually been blackmailed, then he'll die at EoD. We can easily distinguish between the two scenarios.