Periodic Table of Elements Mafia - DP3

Is no one saying they visited casey.

Waiting to see how this impacts my read

I will bring up again that there is a small but non-zero chance that my hidden ability visited Casey, but I think the chance is small enough that it probably shouldn't affect our reads.

I wonder if Banana thought exactly one of Helz and I is scum and wanted to see if we would slip in a private chat.

Automated Vote Count

This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.

Mikal (1/5): Bullish (p#6)

Not Voting (8): Casey_Risk, Helz, Mag1cman, Mikal, RexFavilla (p#51), Shining, Thoth, whiteflame

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day phase ends in 2 days, 17 hours.

Of the two living players in your NP1 dream, who do you have a preference for?

Casey_Risk wrote:

Helz wrote:

Casey_Risk wrote:

So, that solves one mystery, I suppose. Weird that Banana didn't claim her role and weirder still that she was the NK. Not sure what to make of that yet.

I don't expect anyone else to be on at this time other than Luna who's dead now, anyway. I'm only here because I can't sleep. Ironic, given my role, or perhaps fitting. No dream this time.

I do not see a world where someone visits you as town. Even if someone thought you were scum thats still a play town would want to hear you unpack more mech info.

I will have to chew on this but hopefully some mech result will show that visit.

Have you considered that the person who visited me was probably scum?

Obviously. I was pointing out that it must be.

There is the -or- where you are the scum and you faked a worthless read pool to cover your actual role. What you claimed is a perfect fake claim imo. I can not question you about your targeting because your information is randomized, you have a pool of multiple people which throws the town a curve ball while giving results hardly above RNG, and even if the town flips people in your pool you have both deniability if the flip is town as well as a stronger FOS on a second player.

To be direct right now I am trying but I am unable to think of a more effective claim to make as scum.

RexFavilla wrote:

I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.

VTL: Whiteflame

I gotta check with Pie but this does seem damning which would be about as hard of a red check as an alignment checker.

Im a little thrown off given WF was one of my harder town reads and I have trouble thinking S! Rex would make this play without us being in Lylo or something but the logic is pretty solid here.

I mean I’ve already decided that either Whiteflame was messed with or he was scum.

Wait a minute.

^had something typed there but I am thinking on it more

just hold on

Mag1cman wrote:

Of the two living players in your NP1 dream, who do you have a preference for?

I'm 60/40 in favor of Bullish. He still feels different to me somehow compared to the last game. That said, part of the reason I was leaning town on Mikal was the theory that he and WF got paired due to being strong magnets. Now that we know that that's not the reason (though it is a striking coincidence), I am slightly less trusting of him.

Something about Mikal feels off to me. I have the nagging feeling that he's playing dumb.

whiteflame wrote:

RexFavilla wrote:

I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.

VTL: Whiteflame

Do me a favor: ask Pie what the order of operations are on Lightning Rod vs. Vanillaizer and on Vanillaizer vs. Tracker. Spoiler: one of our roles processes before the Vanillaizer and the other doesn’t.

I am about to ask but I do have a problem here. Yesterday I was flatly told that Vanillaizer happened before any form of redirection.

I do not think you would take such a hard position and not expect me to verify given it would be an utterly damning verifiable lie in this situation but I got told the opposite which lines up with what Rex is saying.

Helz wrote:

Casey_Risk wrote:

Helz wrote:

Casey_Risk wrote:

So, that solves one mystery, I suppose. Weird that Banana didn't claim her role and weirder still that she was the NK. Not sure what to make of that yet.

I don't expect anyone else to be on at this time other than Luna who's dead now, anyway. I'm only here because I can't sleep. Ironic, given my role, or perhaps fitting. No dream this time.

I do not see a world where someone visits you as town. Even if someone thought you were scum thats still a play town would want to hear you unpack more mech info.

I will have to chew on this but hopefully some mech result will show that visit.

Have you considered that the person who visited me was probably scum?

Obviously. I was pointing out that it must be.

There is the -or- where you are the scum and you faked a worthless read pool to cover your actual role. What you claimed is a perfect fake claim imo. I can not question you about your targeting because your information is randomized, you have a pool of multiple people which throws the town a curve ball while giving results hardly above RNG, and even if the town flips people in your pool you have both deniability if the flip is town as well as a stronger FOS on a second player.

To be direct right now I am trying but I am unable to think of a more effective claim to make as scum.

Sure, I understand where you're coming from completely, and I'll even add that I have seen scum successfully pull off a dreamer claim in a previous game I hosted (the one Luna was talking about earlier). The two things I will say in my defense: (1) as I mentioned earlier, I did actually soft my role in my very first post this game, and (2) I revealed my results immediately at the start of DP2, when I couldn't have known that no one visited me (and if I were scum, or even if I weren't, I think me being visited was probably the safer assumption than me not being visited).

Helz wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

RexFavilla wrote:

I tried to target Magic to track him tonight because I figured someone outside the POE would carry out the nightkill, so I could either clear or catch him. I was vanillaized. I also got no result. I asked Pie if another role aside from a vanillaizer would be required to cancel my night action, and if another hypothetical tracker targeting me would see me visiting Magic tonight. He said they would not see me targeting Magic and that vanillaizer alone would be enough to eliminate my result. This means that being successfully targeted by a vanillaizer under Pie's system means that you DO NOT MOVE. Whiteflame claiming to have been vanillaized and me seeing him visit Shining cannot both be true. He is lying.

VTL: Whiteflame

Do me a favor: ask Pie what the order of operations are on Lightning Rod vs. Vanillaizer and on Vanillaizer vs. Tracker. Spoiler: one of our roles processes before the Vanillaizer and the other doesn’t.

I am about to ask but I do have a problem here. Yesterday I was flatly told that Vanillaizer happened before any form of redirection.

I do not think you would take such a hard position and not expect me to verify given it would be an utterly damning verifiable lie in this situation but I got told the opposite which lines up with what Rex is saying.

Try asking again. I specifically asked Pie about the OoO regarding tracker, lightning rod, and Vanillaizer, and got told that lightning rod would precede Vanillaizer

RexFavilla wrote:

Something about Mikal feels off to me. I have the nagging feeling that he's playing dumb.

How so?

Ok, Scratch that. Just looked in my DM log and Vanillaized happens after blocks and redirections. My mind is just wrong there.

I may have been blowing up Pie with questions this game. Sorry brother >.<

I struggle with games that do not have a revealed OoO but you get to find it out by playing 500 questions piece by piece.

Do you have any results from last night? I just realized that you never said

Casey_Risk wrote:

RexFavilla wrote:

Something about Mikal feels off to me. I have the nagging feeling that he's playing dumb.

How so?

I dunno, something Pie said to me stuck in my head - that Mikal's role is basically a redirector and that redirector would fall in the same place in OoO as Mikal's role. Mikal's description of a magnet doesn't match any description that I've heard of in the game. It basically is exactly a redirector. Pie interpreted the mechanic as identical to a redirector. I don't think Pie would call that role a magnet. And I feel like Mikal has been fumbling since his claim, pretending like the ooo discussion is 'too much' for him. From the way I heard it went down, he and WF revealed their roles to one another and Mikal was sort of half-cced for also having a magnetic metal and came up with this role in response. Since I now think WF is town, I feel like Mikal maybe got a magnetic metal as a fake claim and was thinking of claiming actual magnet or lightning rod but had to come up with something on the fly once WF outed. If WF can tell me I'm off base on this, please do. But it feels like this claim is an albatross around his neck that he just doesn't want to look at or talk about and it's making him awkward and difficult. The pep is out of his step so to speak.

I mean the big question for OoO is redirector vs lightningrod

Mag1cman wrote:

I mean the big question for OoO is redirector vs lightningrod

Redirector is earlier. But redirector is basically Mikal's role but he's claiming it's called 'magnet'

Knowing who goes first there would clear up a lot

Here’s my thought: Scum isn’t going to spend the time targeting Whiteflame with both a Vanillizer and a redirector. So if any redirector Whiteflame, then it was incidental.

RexFavilla wrote:

Mag1cman wrote:

I mean the big question for OoO is redirector vs lightningrod

Redirector is earlier. But redirector is basically Mikal's role but he's claiming it's called 'magnet'

ok

Its literally framed a redirector. Pie even told me this lol. Assuming he just set it up as a magnet to make it match. Been saying it was functionally a redirector forever.

Its also not playing dumb. There is just to much going on with pie saying shit about a buss driver. Wf saying rod and my role. To many variables to try and make any locked connection of the last dp ooo.

I've been trying to use claims, poe and behavior to do something. Behavior is why I read wf as town so hard. Its hard to have like 1k messages and to have nothing stick out if he was scum. Like we were texting so much it was like a full on fluent conversation at points.

But not going to pretend I have any idea about what could or could not have happened with ooo and I think we are more likely to make a wrong assumption than right with so many variables that are not known.

Thoth wrote:

I wonder if Banana thought exactly one of Helz and I is scum and wanted to see if we would slip in a private chat.

The N1 choices of Mikal and WF do not make sense to me really. D2 Banana started to scum read Mikal but D1 they had no position on either them or WF I took note of.

That does bring up an interesting subject of reads though. Just for a note dump-

Kohai scum read Magoroth, was neutral on Rex and shining and town on Thoth and WhiteFlame

Lunatic was town on Banana, Thoth Me, and WhiteFlame, Neutral on Bullish and Casey, Scum on Magic, Mag, Mikal, Rex, Shining

Mag was town on Whiteflame, Scum on Bannana, Bullish, Lunatic, Mag1c, Rex, Thoth and Neutral on Shining (I have holes in my notes here having missed the EOD1 and did not update Mags stances as I dug through it. So take these as early D1 positions)

Banana was town on Casey and Thoth, Scum on Bullish, Mag, and Mikal

Casey_Risk wrote:

Do you have any results from last night? I just realized that you never said

I do have results but they are useless, possibly detrimental if I out them. They do not incriminate anyone nor do they clear me.

Mikal redirects Lunatic to Whiteflame

Lunatic hides behind Whiteflame

Whiteflame lightning rods anything that affects Lunatic

Since Mikal’s redirect goes first, it’s unaffected by Whiteflame’s lightningrod.

Therefore Whiteflame visiting Shining (via Rex’s results) should not be possible.

Therefore Whiteflame is scum.

UNLESS:

Mikal lied about his redirection target.

Could Mikal have redirected Rex to someone who visited Shining last night?

Nope. No one targeted Shining DP1. Unless: someone lied about their target.

FYI you are forgetting the part that wf processes first

I go off "first"

But a rod would pull me to them.

I dont resolve first.

That is per pie

Pie literally told me "its towns issue' if we are interpreting what he says wrong

His ooo is

I operate first but do not resolve first

So

I go off

And if a rod is there it would pull me. Then I would resolve

Helz and Mikal are in mechanical conflict.

If we assume Helz is town, the only real explanation we have for his action failing to protect Kohai, is if he was redirected away. Which points to Mikal being scum.

If we assume Mikal is town, then no one could have redirected Helz away from Kohai. Making Helz scum in that case.