Periodic Table of Elements Mafia - DP5

Helz wrote:

Duno what everyone is getting worked up about. Im like 95% sure I claimed Nitrogen when I first revealed. And I have absolutely full claimed my role.

You've stated several times that you've full claimed in response to requests for your claim. If you're so sure you did, link to the posts. I've done a Ctrl+F for "Nitrogen" and unless you misspelled it somewhere, I don't see it. Also, if you named your role anywhere or specified its specific mode of action beyond "it prevents everything," show me.

Thoth can verify I even told them without being asked that I was a 2 shot which I would have no reason to reveal if I was scum. I bet not a single one of you even bothered to read through my ISO. Not that I blame you. I have zero interest in looking at it myself to see where I voiced that but its really weird I am being painted like I have been any sort of secretive about my claim this game. If anything I claimed my role too early

I don't doubt that you told Thoth... in DP3 where you had the opportunity to do so after virtually everyone had claimed, so that's not doing you a lot of favors. Believe me, though, I've re-read your ISO a few times searching for your claim. It's been really annoying.

People should re-read Bullish's comments just today. Not even ISO them. Just read what they are saying today. Its a really weird progression.

From being open minded to being emotional and insulting to Shoving a PoE with some half ass wagonomics shoving the person they know did not visit is scum then directly into questioning the person they say they town read (WF)

Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on him too, but "being emotion and insulting" is not unusual for him and you're pushing the same behavioral read on him that Mikal did, so that's not a good look. I'd be much more sus of him if he didn't question me.

So I am gona bitch for a second. Why would I make up such an absolutely verifiable lie that I said my flavor? This is why I hate that flavor is even a factor. Use your brains for half a second and recognize that absolutely everyone has claimed theirs so I could claim anything on the periodic table if I wanted to. What possible reason would I have for making that up especially if I was scum? If anything I would be super careful about making such claims and not just volunteer my role and details about my role when I am not even pressured. If you want to look at meta look at my first game here where I just shrugged about flavor and claimed my name for absolutely no reason as town. I do not care about it and do not want it taking up space in my head. I personally dislike that its being dragged into a mafia game at all and I said so before this game even started and I had a role or alignment.

Honestly? I don't know. Why would you lie about claiming publicly as town or scum? You might do so just to push attention elsewhere when the opportunity presents itself, but you'd have to know it would eventually come back to you. At best, that's NAI. It's not the main reason I'm sussing you, so the frustration is just a bonus.

I just took a nap btw and it was revealed to me in a dream that whiteflame is scum.

...Wut?

Thoth wrote:

I will add more later tonight (although I admit to not having delivered every time I've said that), but for now I'm just going to say that, if Helz flips scum here, he is the most devious and mind-reading motherfucker to ever mafiate. He is completely off the table from my perspective.

I asked you for a reason why he's off the table for you. Why do you townread Helz so solidly? What did he say to you that made you townlock him? Be specific. Don't generalize about deviousness or "mind-reading," it doesn't help any of us understand your thinking.

Bullish wrote:

You shoulda let Shining keep his bus vote on Helz, now that Thoth has revealed his hand.

Not sure what the thinking is here, but I'll cover Thoth when he specifies what's informing his read.

Did banana really pull 2 town-scum pairs into chats, and both times town got duped?

Bullish wrote:

I just took a nap btw and it was revealed to me in a dream that whiteflame is scum.

Man, you gotta stop dreaming about Mafia.

whiteflame wrote:

Helz wrote:

Duno what everyone is getting worked up about. Im like 95% sure I claimed Nitrogen when I first revealed. And I have absolutely full claimed my role.

You've stated several times that you've full claimed in response to requests for your claim. If you're so sure you did, link to the posts. I've done a Ctrl+F for "Nitrogen" and unless you misspelled it somewhere, I don't see it. Also, if you named your role anywhere or specified its specific mode of action beyond "it prevents everything," show me.

Thoth can verify I even told them without being asked that I was a 2 shot which I would have no reason to reveal if I was scum. I bet not a single one of you even bothered to read through my ISO. Not that I blame you. I have zero interest in looking at it myself to see where I voiced that but its really weird I am being painted like I have been any sort of secretive about my claim this game. If anything I claimed my role too early

I don't doubt that you told Thoth... in DP3 where you had the opportunity to do so after virtually everyone had claimed, so that's not doing you a lot of favors. Believe me, though, I've re-read your ISO a few times searching for your claim. It's been really annoying.

People should re-read Bullish's comments just today. Not even ISO them. Just read what they are saying today. Its a really weird progression.

From being open minded to being emotional and insulting to Shoving a PoE with some half ass wagonomics shoving the person they know did not visit is scum then directly into questioning the person they say they town read (WF)

Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on him too, but "being emotion and insulting" is not unusual for him and you're pushing the same behavioral read on him that Mikal did, so that's not a good look. I'd be much more sus of him if he didn't question me.

So I am gona bitch for a second. Why would I make up such an absolutely verifiable lie that I said my flavor? This is why I hate that flavor is even a factor. Use your brains for half a second and recognize that absolutely everyone has claimed theirs so I could claim anything on the periodic table if I wanted to. What possible reason would I have for making that up especially if I was scum? If anything I would be super careful about making such claims and not just volunteer my role and details about my role when I am not even pressured. If you want to look at meta look at my first game here where I just shrugged about flavor and claimed my name for absolutely no reason as town. I do not care about it and do not want it taking up space in my head. I personally dislike that its being dragged into a mafia game at all and I said so before this game even started and I had a role or alignment.

Honestly? I don't know. Why would you lie about claiming publicly as town or scum? You might do so just to push attention elsewhere when the opportunity presents itself, but you'd have to know it would eventually come back to you. At best, that's NAI. It's not the main reason I'm sussing you, so the frustration is just a bonus.

So, I am not gona dig through my own ISO to figure out where I claimed. I really thought I did. Maybe I just remembered wrong and did not. I have been avoiding flavor everything like the plague this game.

I duno about how my views line up with Mikals but my main concern about Bullish is that their reads do not match their reasoning. Scum has to fake their reasoning. They have to gauge how strongly to convey "I think this person is town/scum" while town has actual reasoning that can be followed. I am struggling to see that in them. They have absolute certainty about alignments and end up correct but they can not explain why they had such certainty.

And right now just look at their position. They claim to have mech certainty that Shining did not move yet they shove them. Now they voice they hard town read you and yet they are demanding answers and now shoving you. There is no logical progression. There is no thought process I see to understand how they jumped from what they thought to their conclusion. Its inconsistent and the reasoning they state just looks like scum faking positions.

Duno whats AI about me being frustrated but really, there is no reason for me to lie about something that people could confirm. That would be pretty stupid. I am human and I do make mistakes. Earlier this game I remembered something wrong and just owned it when I realized I remembered it wrong. If you have any questions for me let me know but from where I sit it looks like Bullish is a bus happy Mafia who just shoves their team mates in ways that look bad. They know they could win today so now they are shoving Shining and looking for an out (which appears to be you or me)

I will also say ask the host. Banana's dream was randomized 100% and it had a 'minimum' of 1 scum in it. Ask them the question and verify my words here.

When you get done getting that info ask what you would do as scum if you were Bullish/Mikal in such a pool. Maybe bus? Just maybe?

As Bullish reflected absurd certainty that Mikal was scum in ways they could not explain and also expressing absurd certainty that Casey was town in ways they could not explain? Thats TMI. Just look at it.

So, I am not gona dig through my own ISO to figure out where I claimed. I really thought I did. Maybe I just remembered wrong and did not. I have been avoiding flavor everything like the plague this game.

If you happen to find it, great. Avoiding flavor analysis is a choice that's NAI as well, doesn't help me read you.

I duno about how my views line up with Mikals but my main concern about Bullish is that their reads do not match their reasoning. Scum has to fake their reasoning. They have to gauge how strongly to convey "I think this person is town/scum" while town has actual reasoning that can be followed. I am struggling to see that in them. They have absolute certainty about alignments and end up correct but they can not explain why they had such certainty.

Feel free to read back through Mikal's publicly stated reasoning for sussing Bullish. He regularly calls out inconsistencies in his behavior within the game and between games, the former of which is what you're doing. Calling out the certainty in his approach is distinct, I'll give you that much, it's just not a very strong reason for me to sus him. Bullish is... well, bullish about his beliefs. I've flagged it, but it's not enough by itself.

And right now just look at their position. They claim to have mech certainty that Shining did not move yet they shove them. Now they voice they hard town read you and yet they are demanding answers and now shoving you. There is no logical progression. There is no thought process I see to understand how they jumped from what they thought to their conclusion. Its inconsistent and the reasoning they state just looks like scum faking positions.

Yeah, flagged that, too. If he was pushing Shining's lynch this DP, then we'd have a problem, but I understand his POE regardless. It's not how I'd do it, but I get it. And no, he's not shoving me. Asking questions about what went on in the chat with Mikal is townie to me, that's entirely logical.

Duno whats AI about me being frustrated but really, there is no reason for me to lie about something that people could confirm. That would be pretty stupid. I am human and I do make mistakes. Earlier this game I remembered something wrong and just owned it when I realized I remembered it wrong. If you have any questions for me let me know but from where I sit it looks like Bullish is a bus happy Mafia who just shoves their team mates in ways that look bad. They know they could win today so now they are shoving Shining and looking for an out (which appears to be you or me)

So let's talk mech.

Back in DP1, you said this:

Kohai should not be dead. I figured I am basically the town protective on crack. Every role to include killing roles should have been neutralized that visited Kohai last night. My best guess is that I was redirected or they were swapped before my action hit. We do not have a formal OoO to work with which makes it more difficult to figure out but host did confirm to me that I stop normal killing roles. Figured Mags function would have been an exception but unless Mafia has some strongman or equal role to what Mag did its simply a redirect that happened.

This yields two separate problems:

First, we know I was the target of the Redirector NP1. We know I was Redirected by Mikal to Shining. You can't have been Mikal's target. Then, you claim that you targeted me NP2. Despite all that, you've been solid townreading me since pretty early in this game. Did you think there was another scum redirection role? That's the only way that your explanation works. Or have you come up with a different means by which you could fail to protect Kohai NP1 with your role?

Second, Bullish says he also targeted me the following DP and got a result that there was no movement. You didn't question it or say anything about it. It's a lesser concern, but I can't say I get why this wasn't a big problem for you. Mikal made the same lapse.

I will also say ask the host. Banana's dream was randomized 100% and it had a 'minimum' of 1 scum in it. Ask them the question and verify my words here.

I know it's possible, yes. The question came up earlier. That's why I haven't entirely eliminated Bullish as a scum concern.

When you get done getting that info ask what you would do as scum if you were Bullish/Mikal in such a pool. Maybe bus? Just maybe?

As Bullish reflected absurd certainty that Mikal was scum in ways they could not explain and also expressing absurd certainty that Casey was town in ways they could not explain? Thats TMI. Just look at it.

So because Bullish might bus given the circumstances, that's a strong reason to sus him? Pretty straightforward WIFOM, but it's something I'd considered, yes.

While we're at it, something else is still bothering me. You've now said your character is Nitrogen. Great. What's your role called? You've only referred to what it does. What is it called in your PM?

Automated Vote Count

This vote count was generated by the mafia vote bot.

Not Voting (5): Bullish, Helz, Shining (p#45), Thoth, whiteflame

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Day phase ends in 1 day, 14 hours.

Not sure what the thinking is here, but I'll cover Thoth when he specifies what's informing his read.

I told Helz that I could winshare with scum if they killed me before DP4 and was willing to cooperate. He declined.

Which isn't true, I was just baiting

Helz did not claim Nitrogen in our chat.

Thoth wrote:

Not sure what the thinking is here, but I'll cover Thoth when he specifies what's informing his read.

I told Helz that I could winshare with scum if they killed me before DP4 and was willing to cooperate. He declined.

You might as well have just asked him if he was scum lol.

Thoth wrote:

Not sure what the thinking is here, but I'll cover Thoth when he specifies what's informing his read.

I told Helz that I could winshare with scum if they killed me before DP4 and was willing to cooperate. He declined.

So because Helz saw through the bluff, you straight townread him? Am I reading this right?

Helz did not claim Nitrogen in our chat.

OK. What did he claim? Character, role and any justification you received. Why are you being so cagey about giving this stuff out?

I really am trying to put together Thoth's thinking. I get townreading a person who you spend a lot of time in chat with. I did that. The kind of absolute townread that Thoth is giving Helz, though, that's beyond me. Setting him "completely off the table" is something I can't fathom.

Okay, so can we lynch Helz now?

Shining wrote:

Okay, so can we lynch Helz now?

I’d prefer to get what info we can from Thoth first.

whiteflame wrote:

So because Helz saw through the bluff, you straight townread him? Am I reading this right?

No, not quite. I'm townreading Helz because I can't really imagine that he would have seen through it if he were scum. I was cagey about revealing this because I wanted to save the, “I’m a winshare neutral, please cooperate with me”, bait for future games.

OK. What did he claim? Character, role and any justification you received. Why are you being so cagey about giving this stuff out?

Helz should claim that first and then I confirm.

There was a lot past how it sounds. I dislike that its just being shaded like its unreasonable. I did end up feeling they were towny but the fact I revealed I was 2x and I got my role removed with them knowing that is where I really drew a hard position that Thoth is town.

I would also point out what scum would ever discourage a town player from sheeping their vote? D3 #178 Thoth flatly offered to follow my lead and vote where I do and I asked that instead they triangulate with me and voice their own thoughts. Why would I ever reject such an offer?

Like, What possible reason could I have as scum to not just take that and run with it? By default if I was scum and had 1 town vote I could control +2 team mates I would have had a majority yesterday. Basic math. Its not even possible for me to be scum considering that and yet the town is blindly marching down this stupid path and ignoring any reasoning.

whiteflame wrote:

While we're at it, something else is still bothering me. You've now said your character is Nitrogen. Great. What's your role called? You've only referred to what it does. What is it called in your PM?

So this is an issue I have. Scum and town alike get this bolded "Therefore you are XXXX" with a role name. I do not have that. I was told I vaporize everything that comes to the person I visit and I neutralize everything.

I also voiced this to Thoth in our chat.

Thoth wrote:

whiteflame wrote:

So because Helz saw through the bluff, you straight townread him? Am I reading this right?

No, not quite. I'm townreading Helz because I can't really imagine that he would have seen through it if he were scum. I was cagey about revealing this because I wanted to save the, “I’m a winshare neutral, please cooperate with me”, bait for future games.

I think you're overestimating your ability to draw others into your bluff, man. I understand wanting to believe that what you did here was proof positive, but it's not that good of a bluff and it's easy enough for someone to see through. If I was in there, I wouldn't have bought it.

OK. What did he claim? Character, role and any justification you received. Why are you being so cagey about giving this stuff out?

Helz should claim that first and then I confirm.

I really don't like this. You were outright willing to claim your role. Why are you so skittish about a claim from Helz who either lied to you or lied to us?

I figure the town is about to throw it. There is no possible reason on the planet I would claim something that looks so bad if I was scum. Or why I would reveal such information in a side chat. Its just absurd. So I think this is the play-

VTL: Bullish

Its absolutely Bullish and Shining. The game is totally locked up. Do not over complicate it obsessing over details and ignoring the obvious basic things in front of you

Helz wrote:

I would also point out what scum would ever discourage a town player from sheeping their vote? D3 #178 Thoth flatly offered to follow my lead and vote where I do and I asked that instead they triangulate with me and voice their own thoughts. Why would I ever reject such an offer?

Like, What possible reason could I have as scum to not just take that and run with it? By default if I was scum and had 1 town vote I could control +2 team mates I would have had a majority yesterday. Basic math. Its not even possible for me to be scum considering that and yet the town is blindly marching down this stupid path and ignoring any reasoning.

Lot of WIFOM here, and not even the good kind. Refusing to have Thoth sheep your vote isn't going to earn you any towncred, definitely not from me. It's not unusual for anyone, much less scum, to outright refuse to let a player just sheep them when they can see a lot of opportunities for mislynches on the table anyway. There might have been value in it, but not enough to make this objectively townie.

So this is an issue I have. Scum and town alike get this bolded "Therefore you are XXXX" with a role name. I do not have that. I was told I vaporize everything that comes to the person I visit and I neutralize everything.

I also voiced this to Thoth in our chat.

So you are the only person in this game who doesn't have a named role? Every single flip, every single claim beyond yours has a name, but you're the only one that's different. No justification, either. Are we just doing this on faith now?

So let's talk mech.

Back in DP1, you said this:

Kohai should not be dead. I figured I am basically the town protective on crack. Every role to include killing roles should have been neutralized that visited Kohai last night. My best guess is that I was redirected or they were swapped before my action hit. We do not have a formal OoO to work with which makes it more difficult to figure out but host did confirm to me that I stop normal killing roles. Figured Mags function would have been an exception but unless Mafia has some strongman or equal role to what Mag did its simply a redirect that happened.

This yields two separate problems:

First, we know I was the target of the Redirector NP1. We know I was Redirected by Mikal to Shining. You can't have been Mikal's target. Then, you claim that you targeted me NP2. Despite all that, you've been solid townreading me since pretty early in this game. Did you think there was another scum redirection role? That's the only way that your explanation works. Or have you come up with a different means by which you could fail to protect Kohai NP1 with your role?

Second, Bullish says he also targeted me the following DP and got a result that there was no movement. You didn't question it or say anything about it. It's a lesser concern, but I can't say I get why this wasn't a big problem for you. Mikal made the same lapse.

Looking for a response to what I posted here in #71. If your night actions happened as you said, explain the above.

While you're at it, explain why you claimed something different than Nitrogen to Thoth in chat, apparently.

Pretty much. There is no reason for me to lie about this. Every single flip I see has this bolded direct role and my DM is not worded the same. I had an entire conversation about this before but this would be a really stupid thing to lie about if I was scum.