Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:50 PM (post #117)

I also say it’s super easy to fake a guilty on your partner but faking guilty on a town is way too risky

Except it could have easily backfired and just got me lynched yesterday. You and thoth seet it up to look that way by claiming to blackmail him. Any guilty on him would just look like I was trying to frame him. I was a plausible question for being lynched yesterday too. The guilty just would have backfired on me if I was scum and just colud have left thoth looking scummy in a lylo situation since he would still be in the same spot with his out of sync character claim.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:53 AM (post #119)

Very different scenarios, because in that game there was a reason to bus, in this one there is absolutely no reason to bus.

Thoth was on everyone’s radar. Even if you thought you could get one of us to misvote if we had lynched him you’d be strongly paired with him. Easier to hard bus in F5.

If we ended up lynching Thoth in F5 and you didn’t hard bus / push him then you would have been blatantly obvious in F3

WTf are you talking about? We know from Mag1c it’s blackmailer. You really think scum is a popular blackmailer?

I am saying we don't know the last remaining scum role in it's entirety, you can't dismiss that they have 1x blackmailer, 1x popular, 1x lawyer, or whatever else. We simply don't know, yet you are using TMI by pretending to know exactly what the last scum role is lol.

No. It. Is. Not. Scum have a direct counter to tracker (ninja) doctor and Bp (strongman) but we are supposed to believe the only counter to cop is vanilla?

How is a cop potentially permanently losing ALL of it's abilities not a direct counter lol??

The point is pie helped balance this game and I doubt he would give us a cop without a direct counter.

THERE IS A COUNTER, just because you refuse to accept that a vanillizer is a counter, doesn't make it not true. And again, you assume TMI that there isn't a lawyer or godfather in the remaining scum role, which is pretty telling.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 1:00 AM (post #124)

THERE IS A COUNTER, just because you refuse to accept that a vanillizer is a counter, doesn't make it not true. And again, you assume TMI that there isn't a lawyer or godfather in the remaining scum role, which is pretty telling.

This is such an obvious slip. You came in this DP claiming inno on wf and instantly voting me without any of us having breathing space to discuss. Obviously that means you weren’t consider wf as a godfather.

Why didn’t you consider the possibility of wf being a godfather?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 10:57 PM (post #122)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:53 AM (post #119)

Very different scenarios, because in that game there was a reason to bus, in this one there is absolutely no reason to bus.

Thoth was on everyone’s radar. Even if you thought you could get one of us to misvote if we had lynched him you’d be strongly paired with him. Easier to hard bus in F5.

Being on the radar is very different then pushing him for no reason when both helz and whiteflame were bigger options for a mislynch yesterday. I was the one who doubled down on that and made the lynch happen. I could have even died on the hill of my result while accepting helz plan to lynch outside of the result, and ended the game immediately by having thoth help me vote outside. We only needed one vote, and helz was ready and willing to vote whiteflame last day phase. It makes no sense for me to bus in any situation here.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 11:02 PM (post #125)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 1:00 AM (post #124)

THERE IS A COUNTER, just because you refuse to accept that a vanillizer is a counter, doesn't make it not true. And again, you assume TMI that there isn't a lawyer or godfather in the remaining scum role, which is pretty telling.

This is such an obvious slip. You came in this DP claiming inno on wf and instantly voting me without any of us having breathing space to discuss. Obviously that means you weren’t consider wf as a godfather.

Bro stop throwing a tantrum and making text larger, it's an incredibly childish strategy. But thoth having a vanillizer is what completely cleared whiteflame, there was no chance scum vanillized themselves and then got lucky that I happened to get a guilty to help him bus thoth lol. You are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/12/2026 at 11:03 PM (post #126)

Why didn’t you consider the possibility of wf being a godfather?

I am not clearing whiteflame on the result alone, it's that combined with thoth being a vanillizer.

Kohai your argument is in shambles now and you are just getting desperate at this point.

Kohai your argument is in shambles now and you are just getting desperate at this point.

WF, I want to talk to you directly before you make this call, because it’s all on you now. I’ve been the cop this entire game. Every result I gave came back exactly right. Helz town. Thoth scum. You town. You know that last one is true better than anyone. I did my job, I found a scum, I handed him to you, and I cleared you when Kohai spent the whole game trying to get you lynched. And I don't want to lose this game because you’re too paranoid to trust your own cop.

I get why. I’ve bussed before, I’ve faked cop before (twice in a row would be just insane), you know my scum game. But think about what you’re actually accusing me of. I could have won yesterday with one fake guilty. On Helz, on you, on anyone. Kohai was already on you. Helz was already leaning you. Thoth and I had two votes sitting right there. Instead I threw away a guaranteed win, handed you my “partner,” and walked us into a coin flip where you decide everything? Nobody does that. Not me, not anyone. There’s no big reward on the other side of that risk. There’s just losing. Look at who Kohai has been all game. Townread Thoth DP2. Wanted you dead since DP1. Put town Mag1c at L1. Named the Vanillizer on day one. And right now he’s not even arguing results, he’s arguing my meta from other games, because the results in this one don’t work for him. If you vote me and I flip town, every single thing I did this game was real and we lost because we couldn’t trust it. Please don’t let that be how this ends. Trust the results. Vote Kohai.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 12:20 AM (post #110)

I'm about to go to sleep. Gonna make my final points

Regarding Luna's case:

1) Why would I "slip" the existence of a vanillaizer?

I don't think you'd have much reason to hint at the existence of a Vanillaizer if you had one on your scum team, no. It's an odd choice on your part, but not one I'd consider particularly scummy. Wouldn't call it a town tell, either, though.

2) I've shown in multiple previous games that roles like this is what I'm always thinking about especially when I have a role that is confirmable.

Kind of get this, but doesn't really tell me anything about this game.

3) Blackmail chain: I had thought that there was scum between helz / mag1c for reasons I stated earlier in the game. In the end we were forced to lynch mag1c

I'll come back to this because it looks like Luna expanded on the point.

My case:

1) I encourage you to review again the interacitons between luan / thoth. Both sussed each other but never voted or hard pushed each other. Luna had multiple opporunities to vote thoth / wagon him day 1. He chose to keep his vote on shining.

I'll go back through them, but it sounds like we basically agree based on what you've written here about what happened. I also don't view that as particularly scummy (literally everyone had a reason to sus Shining based on his lack of interaction), but Luna does seem to be trying to use their susses as an indication of distance that I'm just not seeing.

2) Mech:

Why would Hawking be in the game but Clinton not? Luna himself admitted that Clinton is likely to be in the game. Why would I, as scum, risk asking about a character that's high probability to be in the game?

The theory would be that you lucked out asking about Clinton. There are more than enough people involved with Epstein that, at least I would argue, Clinton was never guaranteed to be in this game, even though he's a very big fish. The confusion I'm having is why Luna would draw attention to the obviousness of Clinton being in this game and then flip around and say he must not be here. From Luna's perspective, I get that you have to be scum. There's no other choice. It's just weird to call out how Clinton is both the likeliest pick for Savant/Pie to be here, and then say he's also a likely choice for a scum team to ask about.

Does cop and the stated justification actually fit with Stephen Hawking? Compare his justification "I have one of the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes my analysis" and compare that with justifications that have flipped.

Vaguely, yes. I have said it felt off, but it's not impossible. Here are the justifications so far:

Bill Gates: Because of your work improving global health, you are the 2x Doctor, which is also the name of a game you may have played with children on Epstein’s Island

Michael Jackson: Because you are widely known for your music, you are the Singer

Dean Kamen: In addition to being named hundreds of times in the Epstein Files, you invented the Segway and hold over 1,000 patents. Therefore, you are the Inventor.

David Copperfield: Because you rely on misdirection to deceive the audience and shift their attention away from your connections with Epstein, you are the 2x Redirector.

Ehud Barak: you served dutifully for 36 years in the Israel Defense Forces, so it is unlikely you would ever harm a child. Fittingly, you are the Soldier.

Those aren't very vague. Some of them are a little on the nose (Michael Jackson, Ehud Barak, Dean Kamen), and others more utilize what the characters are known for as a basis for a role (Bill Gates, David Copperfield).

By contrast, I'd argue that both of yours are pretty vague.

Stephen Hawking is a Cop because he's "one the greatest minds in history, and nothing escapes [his] analysis." It lines up with some kind of insightful role, sure, but with Cop specifically? I'd say not.

Bill Clinton is Popular because he "remained high approval ratings even after the Monica scandal." Sure, that's historically accurate, it's just a weird pull that feels different from the others on this list.

Both of you would fall into the latter category (using what the characters are known for as a basis for their role), and having any specifics and a shout out to something beyond Epstein with that kind of focus does give yours more resemblance to the likes of Ehud Barak and Bill Gates, PMs you wouldn't have known about. I'd say you have the edge at this point.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:28 AM (post #112)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/12/2026 at 9:16 PM (post #107)

I am usually reserved with my votes, I describe myself as an intentional voter. On that end, I don't think there's a point to voting thoth at this point in the day phase if the vote won't accomplish much, and I was in general agreement about the vanillize/blackmailer dynamic. Even knowing he is scum now for sure, I don't know that in hind sight trying to steer the game in that direction makes the most sense with the information we had and at the point in the game we were at, and the limited activity from thoth. I explored him in later rounds and that should be enough.

As someone who is pretty reserved with voting myself, I get it, but I do also recognize that you're trying to gain some steam off of sussing Thoth when you were clearly unwilling to push him based on your sus. Wouldn't be a first for you to break with others in the DP, though I'll grant you that the 1v1 that was being setup at the time was really drawing enough attention that it likely wouldn't have gone anywhere. Maybe you could see the writing on the wall for that push at the time. Again, though, I don't really like that you keep pointing to Thoth's lack of activity as an excuse. Thoth was absent over a good deal of the DP, sure, but there are substantial overlaps in your activity and his during DP2, overlaps when he was present and posting for over an hour in the early morning (particularly true on the day the lynch went through). I don't buy that he just was too inactive to consider because you didn't expect to receive responses. I know he's ghosted us before, but I don't buy that here.

WF, I’m going to stand on all of it, and I want to add something that I think settles the “you’d know the results anyway” point.

If I’m a fake cop, I pick my results. I could have said Helz guilty, and town lynches the Soldier DP3. Game over, scum win. I could have said WF guilty, and Kohai was already “almost certain it’s wf.” Game over. Any fake guilty on any townie wins on the spot. Instead I “chose” an innocent on the Soldier and a guilty on my own partner. Scum knowing the results doesn’t help your case, it kills it. A scum cop with free choice of results never hands town his partner when every other guilty wins. Thoth: “overlaps in activity” isn’t engagement. When he did show up in DP2 he told us he was “only on page 5 reading up” and was talking balance theory. I put him on the spot in #254, he dodged with “Mag1c is my choice of scum,” and the entire town agreed the day was WF vs Mag1c. I’m not apologizing for not splitting votes off the consensus question.

I've fully admitted the Cop guilty on Thoth is the major point that's helping your case. The argument that you could have gotten Helz or me lynched is fair, I think that was plausible. However, I don't like the way you're framing this as though it was a given. Helz himself pointed out that you'd been defending him a bit in DP2 after sussing him a bit in DP1. Coming out of left field and saying that you got a red check on him in DP2 would have at least drawn some uncertainty. A red check on me would have made more sense, though you may also have just decided that it was unlikely town would lynch DJT if push came to shove. And with Thoth a very likely lynch going into the last DP - dude still hadn't claimed his role, so scum were clearly scrambling with that fake Blackmailed play - I could see wanting to put as sharp a divide between you two as possible.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that these are the likeliest scenarios. I think you'd take advantage of the opportunity and try to get a mislynch first and foremost. I'm just saying I have reason to doubt that there is absolutely no scenario where you would make this choice. There's a logic to it, even if that logic requires me to buy that you just didn't trust getting the lynch off on either me or Helz.

And yes, the lack of engagement with you from Thoth was noted. I didn't see much frustration from you with that or attempts to draw attention back to the questions you'd asked him, so while I agree he could be obstinate, I didn't see much effort to break down that wall. Not voting him is one thing, letting him get away with a weak response that you say now is a dodge is another.

I've fully admitted the Cop guilty on Thoth is the major point that's helping your case. The argument that you could have gotten Helz or me lynched is fair, I think that was plausible. However, I don't like the way you're framing this as though it was a given. Helz himself pointed out that you'd been defending him a bit in DP2 after sussing him a bit in DP1. Coming out of left field and saying that you got a red check on him in DP2 would have at least drawn some uncertainty. A red check on me would have made more sense, though you may also have just decided that it was unlikely town would lynch DJT if push came to shove. And with Thoth a very likely lynch going into the last DP - dude still hadn't claimed his role, so scum were clearly scrambling with that fake Blackmailed play - I could see wanting to put as sharp a divide between you two as possible.

The problem is you have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios to reach a conclusion I am scum here, instead of the liklier possibility I am just town lol

To be clear, I'm not arguing that these are the likeliest scenarios. I think you'd take advantage of the opportunity and try to get a mislynch first and foremost. I'm just saying I have reason to doubt that there is absolutely no scenario where you would make this choice. There's a logic to it, even if that logic requires me to buy that you just didn't trust getting the lynch off on either me or Helz.

I was literally the one most resistant to the idea of lynching outside of the 1 v 1 with me and thoth lol. I understood his idea there and everything but was really hoping you would just help me lynch thoth, and I am glad we did. It's unfortunate that past bussing adventures is having you second guess me and my results this much.

And yes, the lack of engagement with you from Thoth was noted. I didn't see much frustration from you with that or attempts to draw attention back to the questions you'd asked him, so while I agree he could be obstinate, I didn't see much effort to break down that wall. Not voting him is one thing, letting him get away with a weak response that you say now is a dodge is another.

I dis-agree entirely, I never let up pressure on helz. There's only so much water you can get from a stone. Thoth is notoriously AFK and its a habit I am used to across multiple games. Sure, if we have the time to spare, I'd happily make you guys hold off on a lynch and help me apply pressure to him. But in the meantime, we were losing valuable game time and I had agreed with the consensus about the vanillizer and blackmail dilemma, so I wasn't prepared to stall out the day phase waiting for thoth to get his shit together.

I never let up pressure on thoth* not helz

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 12:42 AM (post #113)

Both posts you're referencing basically amount to "my being confirmed Popular should be NAI." Neither of them suggest he's seen a game where a Popular player has an active role to boot, so no, I don't believe he answered that himself on day 1. He's continued to suggest he's never seen it before, though I have made a game where scum had a player like that and I posted the link for it.

I mean I made the same point, the irony isn't lost on me that I am now the one having to argue that same point.

Yeah, I think we all agree that it is unusual to have a Popular scum with an active role. As someone who has used one of those before, it's pretty rare. I don't like that you were taking two posts from Kohai's DP1 that clearly had one meaning and ascribing a different meaning to them.

As in any game, I don't think sussing me is a scum tell, regardless of how townie I think I'm being. I don't really get considering pairings in DP1, but we were all basing our reads on threadbare information then. And in DP3, especially with the focus on me, Kohai and Helz and the belief that we should lynch in that pool, I get it. I mechanically had a whole lot less going for me than Helz did, so POE was enough to consider me the obvious choice, and for a lot of the DP, we'd all written off a pairing between you and Thoth. It could be sus, just not obviously so.

You have to look at the motives behind his pushes though, its not just about being suspicious of you. When you can actively dismiss every push I make on the one scum we have caught as "bussing" and give him a pass on every wrong push he's made, I don't know what to tell you anymore.

I'm not dismissing your pushes as bussing. Whether you're scum or town, I believe you had little choice but to push Thoth in DP3. And I'll give you some credit that you indicated that choice by the end of DP1 and all over DP2, showing that you had reason to sus Thoth. It does make the decision to investigate Helz first feel a little more surprising in retrospect, but you clearly had a target of suspicion, even if you weren't willing to pressure them during DP2.

As for Kohai's motives, yeah, he could have just been pushing to get mislynches. I'm saying I understand his thinking well enough that that isn't the only plausible explanation for why he voted/sussed the way he did. I'm not "giv[ing] him a pass on every wrong push he's made," I'm explaining why the justification for those choices isn't automatically sus to me.

I went back and re-read that exchange. He was literally responding to Thoth saying "It is never okay to VTL me, and I do not grant you permission to ever do so." So, yeah, it was a response to a bit of absurdity from Thoth. I was sussing it, but closer inspection says it's NAI. I agree, the decision to townread Thoth early in DP2 was odd. I disagree that his voting Thoth based on the belief that a) your Cop result was accurate and b) the second Blackmail couldn't be real is sus. I think he had a reasonable basis for the vote and it solidified a position he was slowly building through DP2. And yes, just like you, he was reticent to vote for Thoth in DP2, focusing on the 1v1 between me and Mag1c. Not really sussing either of you for that.

Even with all the excuses you are making for kohai, a joke vote on your own partner is the cheapest distancing there is. Thoth giving him the setup line doesn’t make it NAI.

See, Luna, this kind of sus is just beyond me. Thoth was clearly setting himself up to get a response like Kohai's. Kohai gave it and then rescinded it. If anyone saw that as a reason to unpair the two of them, that's beyond me, so if this is "the cheapest distancing there is," then it's also the weakest and it didn't work. I get that you want to build as complete of a case against him as possible and that you have every reason to sus him, but read this from my perspective. Why is this automatically a sus exchange? I don't see it.

Covered this before, but he a) brought it up in a previous game without a Vanillaizer, b) had no incentive to out his partner's role, and c) would have to have been called out by his own partner for TMI. It's odd, I'll give you that, but the decision doesn't make logical sense for him. I'd expect Kohai from like a year ago to make that kind of error and draw attention to himself, but I've seen Kohai improve a great deal and I don't think he's likely to do it now. Off chance, but not an obvious sus.

Out of every role that exists, he named the one scum had, on DP1, unprompted. Thoth flagged it as TMI. Mentioning it in an old game doesn’t make it random here.

So, again, you're saying he actively called out a role his own partner had and then got called out by that partner for TMI? If so, that's some weird distancing play, man.

I just don't get this. So Mag1c voted Helz. Kohai voted Helz with him. There was a "fight," which basically amounted to a question about whether there could be both a Vanillaizer and a Blackmailer (again, the 1v1 we've been talking about a good deal, which involved everyone), so... Kohai is to blame for Mag1c's lynch? What am I missing? Feels like an Underpants Gnomes situation where a step is missing.

Step by step: scum silence Mag1c so he can’t defend himself or explain his reads. His only action is a vote on Helz. Kohai jumps on it before any reasoning exists. That makes Mag1c look like he’s pushing without a case, the WF/Mag1c balance question gets framed around him, and Kohai puts him at L1. That’s the missing step.

I'm... still not seeing it. So Kohai jumping on the same vote with Mag1c without his own reasoning was the problem? Or was it that Kohai put him at L-1? Because Kohai didn't even start the 1v1 conversation between me and Mag1c. Like, I get it, it was a little off for him to sheep Mag1c's vote without much explanation and then turn around and vote against him, but there was a lot of discussion between those two points. Are you saying he didn't provide adequate reasoning for the shift in perspective?

Was wondering when this would come up and from whom. Yeah, the Soldier claim was a pretty big deal. I got the impression that Helz was very clear-eyed about making it. He knew he'd pretty much have to be the NK, regardless of who was scum. Assuming Kohai's scum, you're absolutely right, he couldn't kill you. That would have given town another route to victory since he could have just lynched me and been done with it. But a similar dynamic is true for you. If you're scum, then your fake green check on Helz effectively makes it impossible to lynch him in a three-way fight between you, him and either me or Kohai. And it wouldn't matter if Kohai or I was lynched, since Helz would've soloed the win.

So you're right. Killing Helz was the only move Kohai could make if he was scum. What you've left out is that killing Helz was also the only move you could make if you were scum.

It wasn’t symmetrical. If I’m scum, I never need the night kill on Helz, because I could have lynched him DP3 with a single fake guilty. The only person who needed Helz dead at night was the scum who couldn’t control a cop result. That’s Kohai. My results are 3 for 3, and the only way they’re fake is if I threw away three separate guaranteed wins to set up a coin flip.

I initially thought I missed something after reading this, but looking back, it seems like your framing is what's missing something. Let's look at the timeline:

Helz claimed in post 44 in DP3. You claimed in post 20 in DP3. So, no, regardless of your alignment, you didn't know what Helz was at that point.

So yes, if you were scum and you knew what Helz was before you claimed, you might have gone all in on the push against him. Absent that, you believed he was just VT, which is what he claimed he would be if he wasn't the PGO. I'll fully admit you had the opportunity to push to get him lynched regardless, but the value of that lynch for scum would have changed after he claimed.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 9:28 AM (post #135)

The problem is you have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios to reach a conclusion I am scum here, instead of the liklier possibility I am just town lol

I have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios for both of you. I've already explained what several of those are for Kohai.

I was literally the one most resistant to the idea of lynching outside of the 1 v 1 with me and thoth lol. I understood his idea there and everything but was really hoping you would just help me lynch thoth, and I am glad we did. It's unfortunate that past bussing adventures is having you second guess me and my results this much.

Dude, you were absent for a long stretch that last DP. When the conversation came up about lynching among the three of us (me, Kohai and Helz) you were nowhere to be seen for a while, and it wasn't until we started revisiting the possibility of lynching between the two of you that you showed up again and doubled down on the 1v1. Your absence is not a reason to sus you, but it was notable during a time when attention was largely off you and Thoth, so I'm not giving you much credit for that.

I dis-agree entirely, I never let up pressure on Thoth. There's only so much water you can get from a stone. Thoth is notoriously AFK and its a habit I am used to across multiple games. Sure, if we have the time to spare, I'd happily make you guys hold off on a lynch and help me apply pressure to him. But in the meantime, we were losing valuable game time and I had agreed with the consensus about the vanillizer and blackmail dilemma, so I wasn't prepared to stall out the day phase waiting for thoth to get his shit together.

Adjustment noted and added to the above.

I don't like that, after one attempt to get him to respond to your question and telling me now that he dodged it, you let the issue drop. Telling me over and over that there was no chance of getting anything from Thoth, who was active at the time (notoriously AFK or no, he was there), just doesn't sound like you. And it's responses like this that keep getting under my skin because they read like really threadbare excuses not to engage with someone you viewed as very scummy. Again, it's not that I think you should have stalled out the DP, it's that you didn't even follow up once beyond just saying you still sussed him.

Taking a break for now. I'll check back in a little later.

Yeah, I think we all agree that it is unusual to have a Popular scum with an active role. As someone who has used one of those before, it's pretty rare. I don't like that you were taking two posts from Kohai's DP1 that clearly had one meaning and ascribing a different meaning to them.

The text chain is too long for me to even remember what you are talking about anymore, but speaking of things we don't like, I don't like how your buying into kohais bull shit.

I'm not dismissing your pushes as bussing. Whether you're scum or town, I believe you had little choice but to push Thoth in DP3. And I'll give you some credit that you indicated that choice by the end of DP1 and all over DP2, showing that you had reason to sus Thoth. It does make the decision to investigate Helz first feel a little more surprising in retrospect, but you clearly had a target of suspicion, even if you weren't willing to pressure them during DP2.

When I was the only one pushing thoth dp3 and was the first to cast a vote, I'd say thats more than "little choice". All I had to do was nudge in literally any direction for a win there. Make it make sense to me how lynching thoth was the only option lol. Anyways, I did follow up. I spent my N2 check on him. Chasing a dodge in thread gets you nothing from a player who’s barely there. A check gets you an answer. I took the answer.

As for Kohai's motives, yeah, he could have just been pushing to get mislynches. I'm saying I understand his thinking well enough that that isn't the only plausible explanation for why he voted/sussed the way he did. I'm not "giv[ing] him a pass on every wrong push he's made," I'm explaining why the justification for those choices isn't automatically sus to me.

You've consistently sided with kohai the entire day phase, he's got you hook line and sinker. I am actually pretty impressed with him for being able to pull one over on you.

See, Luna, this kind of sus is just beyond me. Thoth was clearly setting himself up to get a response like Kohai's. Kohai gave it and then rescinded it. If anyone saw that as a reason to unpair the two of them, that's beyond me, so if this is "the cheapest distancing there is," then it's also the weakest and it didn't work. I get that you want to build as complete of a case against him as possible and that you have every reason to sus him, but read this from my perspective. Why is this automatically a sus exchange? I don't see it.

It's more of a counter point, since the only way I can be scum is repeated insistance that I am bussing, however when I try to point out distancing on the other side you want to downplay it as a joke. Sure it is a joke, I get that. It's just interesting that the same bullshit rules being applied to me aren't being applied to kohai.

So, again, you're saying he actively called out a role his own partner had and then got called out by that partner for TMI? If so, that's some weird distancing play, man.

Thoth pointing it out like that seems more to me like Thoth probably got on kohais ass in the mafia pm for mentioning the vanillizer and wanted to be the first to call attention to it so he could get ahead of it.

I'm... still not seeing it. So Kohai jumping on the same vote with Mag1c without his own reasoning was the problem? Or was it that Kohai put him at L-1? Because Kohai didn't even start the 1v1 conversation between me and Mag1c. Like, I get it, it was a little off for him to sheep Mag1c's vote without much explanation and then turn around and vote against him, but there was a lot of discussion between those two points. Are you saying he didn't provide adequate reasoning for the shift in perspective?

Here’s the step I’m pointing at. Kohai’s first DP2 vote was to follow Mag1c onto Helz, right after Mag1c said he’d been blackmailed. Following a silenced player’s vote only makes sense if you believe him. When you asked why, it was “I’ll explain when I get home,” and the explanation was POE plus Helz asking Mag for a character claim. Then he unvoted, voted Mag1c with “I don’t believe vanillaizer and blackmailer exist,” unvoted again over paranoia, and finally put Mag1c at L1. So yes, I’m saying he never gave his own reason for the flip. He went from trusting the blackmail enough to follow the vote to calling it fake, and the reasoning in between was the balance argument you and Helz made, not anything he brought himself. He was on both sides of that 1v1 and ended up on the one that lynched a townie. That’s the chain...

I initially thought I missed something after reading this, but looking back, it seems like your framing is what's missing something. Let's look at the timeline:

Helz claimed in post 44 in DP3. You claimed in post 20 in DP3. So, no, regardless of your alignment, you didn't know what Helz was at that point.

So yes, if you were scum and you knew what Helz was before you claimed, you might have gone all in on the push against him. Absent that, you believed he was just VT, which is what he claimed he would be if he wasn't the PGO. I'll fully admit you had the opportunity to push to get him lynched regardless, but the value of that lynch for scum would have changed after he claimed.

You’re right that I didn’t know Helz was Soldier when I claimed, but it doesn’t change anything. Five alive, two scum. Any town lynch DP3, vanilla or not, makes it 2v2 and the game is over. Helz, you, it didn’t matter. I didn’t need to know his role to win, I just needed one guilty.

I have to jump through hoops and what if scenarios for both of you. I've already explained what several of those are for Kohai.

I mean I have given you a guilty result and our only scum lynch, and it's being dismissed. The best thing you have is presumed game balance issues, when we already mislynched magic over that same thing. Some loose issues with my character I guess. Idk it feels pretty obvious to me, and maybe I am biased being the townie on the other end of the wagon, but I really don't see how you aren't seeing kohai here.

Dude, you were absent for a long stretch that last DP. When the conversation came up about lynching among the three of us (me, Kohai and Helz) you were nowhere to be seen for a while, and it wasn't until we started revisiting the possibility of lynching between the two of you that you showed up again and doubled down on the 1v1. Your absence is not a reason to sus you, but it was notable during a time when attention was largely off you and Thoth, so I'm not giving you much credit for that.

It's pretty fucked to say I am inactive when I am literally asleep. Almost every time before I go to bed I publicly announce it and always say I will be back on to post in the evenings. But when I was back I doubled down on Thoth. If I’m scum, coming back to that conversation and steering it toward my partner is the last thing I do.

Adjustment noted and added to the above.

I don't like that, after one attempt to get him to respond to your question and telling me now that he dodged it, you let the issue drop. Telling me over and over that there was no chance of getting anything from Thoth, who was active at the time (notoriously AFK or no, he was there), just doesn't sound like you. And it's responses like this that keep getting under my skin because they read like really threadbare excuses not to engage with someone you viewed as very scummy. Again, it's not that I think you should have stalled out the DP, it's that you didn't even follow up once beyond just saying you still sussed him.

WF, I disagree with the premise. I didn’t let it drop. I followed up in the way that actually mattered. I put Thoth on the spot in #254. After he claimed Giuffre I called it out in DP2 #391, said he remained one of my biggest suspects, and that his outlier claim made it worse. Then I spent my N2 check on him. That’s three separate follow ups, ending in a guilty. “Didn’t follow up once” just isn’t what happened. And you’re judging me like a vanilla townie who has nothing but the thread. I’m the cop. A cop doesn’t need to win a thread argument with the guy he’s about to check, and he definitely shouldn’t hard tunnel him. That paints a target on his back for the NK and tells scum exactly where the check is going. Every experienced player knows that. I kept my head down on purpose, I wasn’t killed N1 or N2, and I came out with a guilty on the actual scum. You’re calling it a “threadbare excuse not to engage.” I’m calling it doing my job correctly. The result is sitting right there in Thoth’s flip.

Yeah town's not winning this one. Unfortunate.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 8:00 AM (post #132)

Sorry, didn't respond to this.

WF, I want to talk to you directly before you make this call, because it’s all on you now. I’ve been the cop this entire game. Every result I gave came back exactly right. Helz town. Thoth scum. You town. You know that last one is true better than anyone. I did my job, I found a scum, I handed him to you, and I cleared you when Kohai spent the whole game trying to get you lynched.

Setting aside the Helz and Thoth calls, both of which I agree are right and we've already discussed at some length, the decision on me was obvious. If you are scum, you'd have known that your partner would flip and the Vanillaizer would be revealed. If you are town, I understand still being wary of me and wanting to get a read.

And I don't want to lose this game because you’re too paranoid to trust your own cop.

I get why. I’ve bussed before, I’ve faked cop before (twice in a row would be just insane), you know my scum game. But think about what you’re actually accusing me of. I could have won yesterday with one fake guilty. On Helz, on you, on anyone. Kohai was already on you. Helz was already leaning you. Thoth and I had two votes sitting right there. Instead I threw away a guaranteed win, handed you my “partner,” and walked us into a coin flip where you decide everything? Nobody does that. Not me, not anyone. There’s no big reward on the other side of that risk. There’s just losing. Look at who Kohai has been all game. Townread Thoth DP2. Wanted you dead since DP1. Put town Mag1c at L1. Named the Vanillizer on day one. And right now he’s not even arguing results, he’s arguing my meta from other games, because the results in this one don’t work for him. If you vote me and I flip town, every single thing I did this game was real and we lost because we couldn’t trust it. Please don’t let that be how this ends. Trust the results. Vote Kohai.

I think the paranoia's earned. It's not based even largely on previous games, and I recognize that it requires you to have been selected as scum 4 times in a row and that you'd fake claim Cop twice in a row. That is not lost on me. I am, however, not just considering your results. I've brought up a lot of other issues that go beyond those, as well as beyond your history.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that a fake red check on Helz, me or Kohai would have automatically converted into a lynch, though I can see your point that that could have led to a win. Helz and Kohai certainly were prepared to VTL me at several points, though neither did. And that's part of the reason I don't like this argument that you "had two votes sitting right there" - there was never a third vote on any of the three of us throughout the DP, so yes, if you were scum, you would have just had to sit on your hands and wait for an opportunity. Insofar as I think you had the opportunity, I agree that you did and that you probably could have gotten a lynch off on either me or Kohai if you were scum. You would have had to go all in on that at the start of the DP, but yes, that would have made more sense. Helz thought that, too.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 10:10 AM (post #140)

The text chain is too long for me to even remember what you are talking about anymore, but speaking of things we don't like, I don't like how your buying into kohais bull shit.

Noted.

When I was the only one pushing thoth dp3 and was the first to cast a vote, I'd say thats more than "little choice". All I had to do was nudge in literally any direction for a win there. Make it make sense to me how lynching thoth was the only option lol. Anyways, I did follow up. I spent my N2 check on him. Chasing a dodge in thread gets you nothing from a player who’s barely there. A check gets you an answer. I took the answer.

I just plain disagree that you were the only one pushing Thoth. There was a long stretch when Helz was pushing for consideration between the three of us, but everyone basically agreed he was scum pretty early in the DP. The decision to fake the Blackmail was part of it, so was your result.

And I meant following up in the DP. Again, I'll point out that he was active, and that you recognized his response as a dodge. You can justify waiting all you want, I'm just calling it as I see it.

You've consistently sided with kohai the entire day phase, he's got you hook line and sinker. I am actually pretty impressed with him for being able to pull one over on you.

That's just flagrantly false. I've called out several issues I've seen with his behavior over the course of the game.

It's more of a counter point, since the only way I can be scum is repeated insistance that I am bussing, however when I try to point out distancing on the other side you want to downplay it as a joke. Sure it is a joke, I get that. It's just interesting that the same bullshit rules being applied to me aren't being applied to kohai.

You'll note that I'm not pointing to individual posts from you and arguing that they demonstrate a pattern. I'm pointing to a number of choices you've made and putting them in context. Pointing to a single joke post and saying that that post indicates distancing is not the same.

Thoth pointing it out like that seems more to me like Thoth probably got on kohais ass in the mafia pm for mentioning the vanillizer and wanted to be the first to call attention to it so he could get ahead of it.

Possible, sure.

Here’s the step I’m pointing at. Kohai’s first DP2 vote was to follow Mag1c onto Helz, right after Mag1c said he’d been blackmailed. Following a silenced player’s vote only makes sense if you believe him. When you asked why, it was “I’ll explain when I get home,” and the explanation was POE plus Helz asking Mag for a character claim. Then he unvoted, voted Mag1c with “I don’t believe vanillaizer and blackmailer exist,” unvoted again over paranoia, and finally put Mag1c at L1. So yes, I’m saying he never gave his own reason for the flip. He went from trusting the blackmail enough to follow the vote to calling it fake, and the reasoning in between was the balance argument you and Helz made, not anything he brought himself. He was on both sides of that 1v1 and ended up on the one that lynched a townie. That’s the chain...

Alright, I'll read back through the transition to see if you have a point there. If you want to save me some time, ISO the posts between the reasoning for the VTL on Helz and the L-1 vote.

You’re right that I didn’t know Helz was Soldier when I claimed, but it doesn’t change anything. Five alive, two scum. Any town lynch DP3, vanilla or not, makes it 2v2 and the game is over. Helz, you, it didn’t matter. I didn’t need to know his role to win, I just needed one guilty.

So, again, the issue is whether I think you were pocketing Helz for this final DP or trying to win things last DP. If it's the latter, yeah, it changes nothing. If it's the former, it changes everything.

If you were scum, you may have been banking on leaving Helz alive going into this DP. If he was VT, you could basically count on his vote. He definitely would have lynched me or Kohai, so you would've had no problem with that. The moment he claimed Soldier, that would have become a problem because his survival would have guaranteed a town win.

I mean I have given you a guilty result and our only scum lynch, and it's being dismissed. The best thing you have is presumed game balance issues, when we already mislynched magic over that same thing. Some loose issues with my character I guess. Idk it feels pretty obvious to me, and maybe I am biased being the townie on the other end of the wagon, but I really don't see how you aren't seeing kohai here.

I haven't dismissed the guilty result, I'm just putting that result in the context of the DP and expressed susses at the time. It's a point in your favor, I've said that multiple times.

Game balance issues exist regardless of which of you is scum. A Popular Blackmailer with a possible Lawyer is a lot to include in this game, even with a full fledged Cop. Similarly, having a Blackmailer and a JOAT with a Vanillaizer is a lot without a Cop. I don't love the setup regardless.

It's pretty fucked to say I am inactive when I am literally asleep. Almost every time before I go to bed I publicly announce it and always say I will be back on to post in the evenings. But when I was back I doubled down on Thoth. If I’m scum, coming back to that conversation and steering it toward my partner is the last thing I do.

Why is it fucked up to notice that the timing of your absence coincided with the one period where your pushing for the Thoth lynch would have looked most townie? Again, my point is that attention had already steered back towards Thoth when you came back. It was not a guarantee, and I'll give you some credit for helping refocus, but you're expecting me to give you a lot more credit than I feel is warranted.

WF, I disagree with the premise. I didn’t let it drop. I followed up in the way that actually mattered. I put Thoth on the spot in #254. After he claimed Giuffre I called it out in DP2 #391, said he remained one of my biggest suspects, and that his outlier claim made it worse. Then I spent my N2 check on him. That’s three separate follow ups, ending in a guilty. “Didn’t follow up once” just isn’t what happened. And you’re judging me like a vanilla townie who has nothing but the thread. I’m the cop. A cop doesn’t need to win a thread argument with the guy he’s about to check, and he definitely shouldn’t hard tunnel him. That paints a target on his back for the NK and tells scum exactly where the check is going. Every experienced player knows that. I kept my head down on purpose, I wasn’t killed N1 or N2, and I came out with a guilty on the actual scum. You’re calling it a “threadbare excuse not to engage.” I’m calling it doing my job correctly. The result is sitting right there in Thoth’s flip.

I'll repeat: I didn't see a follow up to your post #254 in the DP, and yeah, that seems odd when he was active at the time. I've already shown in my ISO of your behavior that, yes, you did call out his claim. Yes, you did maintain a sus on him. Yes, you did use your N2 check on him. That's not nothing. I just don't like the justification that your lack of follow-up on those questions in the DP was because Thoth tends to be absent when he was there, yet you keep saying it over and over again. And now you're adding another justification, saying that if you'd continued to put attention on Thoth, you'd have put a target on your back, which I don't think was obvious. I'm judging you based on something I think you're being overly defensive about. I'm not judging you as though you were a VT. I'm not ignoring other behaviors. The fact that we're still doing this back-and-forth means I haven't made my decision yet.

I don't want this to be solely between me and Luna, and I do think some points have been brought up that require your attention.

Why did you townread Thoth early in DP2? That did seem off given a lack of contribution by Thoth at the time, and a shift in perspective from recognizing that lack in DP1. You said it was because he was behaviorally consistent with last game. What gave you that impression?

You said you were going to ISO him later in that DP. Why didn't that happen?

I'd also like to understand the transition to sussing him better, since much of it happened over the course of DP2. You saw that Magoroth sussed him in the previous DP, and even went so far as to ask Thoth whether he had a Vanillaizing role. What led you to ask Luna and Thoth if they had Vanillaizing roles? Walk me through that thought process.

On lunch break catching up some

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 10:47 AM (post #144)

I don't want this to be solely between me and Luna, and I do think some points have been brought up that require your attention.

Why did you townread Thoth early in DP2? That did seem off given a lack of contribution by Thoth at the time, and a shift in perspective from recognizing that lack in DP1. You said it was because he was behaviorally consistent with last game. What gave you that impression?

Fair questions. Mainly

1) I felt there was some genuine effort to game solve

2) I felt his ISO was similar to his previous town games

3) Granted he did have two valid excuses (hurricane and sick) so I was giving him more leeway

Will respond to rest later.

Setting aside the Helz and Thoth calls, both of which I agree are right and we've already discussed at some length, the decision on me was obvious. If you are scum, you'd have known that your partner would flip and the Vanillaizer would be revealed. If you are town, I understand still being wary of me and wanting to get a read.

You were the biggest mislynch target, one of the most talked about since dp1. I could have easily got you lynched yesterday. I didn't. I stuck with my result. It's obvious that if I was scum I would lynch you yesterday, not leave you alive and put my balls in a vice grip that lets you crush them dp4 for no reason.

I think the paranoia's earned. It's not based even largely on previous games, and I recognize that it requires you to have been selected as scum 4 times in a row and that you'd fake claim Cop twice in a row. That is not lost on me. I am, however, not just considering your results. I've brought up a lot of other issues that go beyond those, as well as beyond your history.

Those issues are based on wrong pre-conceived notions of balance. We have already been screwed by that with magic. We aren't letting it screw us over twice are we?

Frankly, I'm not convinced that a fake red check on Helz, me or Kohai would have automatically converted into a lynch, though I can see your point that that could have led to a win. Helz and Kohai certainly were prepared to VTL me at several points, though neither did. And that's part of the reason I don't like this argument that you "had two votes sitting right there" - there was never a third vote on any of the three of us throughout the DP, so yes, if you were scum, you would have just had to sit on your hands and wait for an opportunity. Insofar as I think you had the opportunity, I agree that you did and that you probably could have gotten a lynch off on either me or Kohai if you were scum. You would have had to go all in on that at the start of the DP, but yes, that would have made more sense. Helz thought that, too.

I mean even without a red check on you guys it could have happened, and I disagree that I would have had to have been all in on the start. I made the call to stick with thoth and voted him after helz had pushed heavily for lynching thoths presumed scum partner.

I just plain disagree that you were the only one pushing Thoth. There was a long stretch when Helz was pushing for consideration between the three of us, but everyone basically agreed he was scum pretty early in the DP. The decision to fake the Blackmail was part of it, so was your result.

And I meant following up in the DP. Again, I'll point out that he was active, and that you recognized his response as a dodge. You can justify waiting all you want, I'm just calling it as I see it.

I was the first person to vote him which started everyone else voting him. I had to get that going, otherwise you guys seemed to be leaning outside of me/thoth scenario. People were considering my results before that and even kohai was spreading paranoia about a bus then. You think I would have just stuck to bussing when I had a clear out given to me by helz? Why? Again Thoth probably wasn't getting lynched had I not voted him first. The mechanic of us not being able to unvote forced everyones hand into that vote.

That's just flagrantly false. I've called out several issues I've seen with his behavior over the course of the game.

I just watched you blatantly tell him he has the edge. I can see the writing on the wall here, and you've already saida the mechanical stuff is more what you care about, and you told him he has an edge on me mechanically. I mean I disagree entirely with that notion, but I just see you voting me and saying something like "I can't get the mechanical issue out of my head, so Im going with lunatic". It's going to be disheartening to lose to something like that.

You'll note that I'm not pointing to individual posts from you and arguing that they demonstrate a pattern. I'm pointing to a number of choices you've made and putting them in context. Pointing to a single joke post and saying that that post indicates distancing is not the same.

In the context of "distancing" what pattern have I followed other than being consistently suspicious of the same person? Non committal distancing is by far more scummy imo.

So, again, the issue is whether I think you were pocketing Helz for this final DP or trying to win things last DP. If it's the latter, yeah, it changes nothing. If it's the former, it changes everything.

If you were scum, you may have been banking on leaving Helz alive going into this DP. If he was VT, you could basically count on his vote. He definitely would have lynched me or Kohai, so you would've had no problem with that. The moment he claimed Soldier, that would have become a problem because his survival would have guaranteed a town win.

Your timeline breaks the theory. Helz claimed Soldier at #44 of DP3. Thoth was still alive. So if my “pocket Helz” plan died at that moment, I had the entire rest of the day to pivot. And Helz handed me the pivot himself. From #60 on, he was pushing to lynch inside the Helz/Kohai/WF pool and leave me and Thoth alone. He even put himself in it. Any lynch there is 2v2 and the game ends on the spot. That’s the scum win, delivered by the town Soldier. What did I do? I argued against it. #111: “you are taking the odds from a 50/50 to a 33/33/33.” I kept pushing until Thoth was hammered. So your theory needs me to have a plan, watch it break, get handed a guaranteed win immediately afterward, and turn it down to lynch my own partner. There’s no version of scum that does that. Pocketing Helz was never the plan. Finding scum was.

I haven't dismissed the guilty result, I'm just putting that result in the context of the DP and expressed susses at the time. It's a point in your favor, I've said that multiple times.

Game balance issues exist regardless of which of you is scum. A Popular Blackmailer with a possible Lawyer is a lot to include in this game, even with a full fledged Cop. Similarly, having a Blackmailer and a JOAT with a Vanillaizer is a lot without a Cop. I don't love the setup regardless.

I personally don't see you highlighting a specific issue with balance other than not loving it. It's always going to be hard to say what is balanced or not without knowing the full set up, but at least from seeing thoth's role pm and the claims we have on the board I could probably say it's a bit swingy and power dependent, but it seems consistent with both sides so far, obviously not accounting for the remaining scum role we don't know about. Nothing really has bugged me about pie signing off on this yet.

Why is it fucked up to notice that the timing of your absence coincided with the one period where your pushing for the Thoth lynch would have looked most townie? Again, my point is that attention had already steered back towards Thoth when you came back. It was not a guarantee, and I'll give you some credit for helping refocus, but you're expecting me to give you a lot more credit than I feel is warranted.

Nah. I deserve every ounce of credit for that lynch. With all due respect to helz, he was about to gamble that between you and kohai, and from the looks of it, he was leaning voting you last day phase. Me forcing the vote onto thoth, who I knew was scum based on my result potentially saved the game here. I am not convinced you guys were lynching thoth without my severe push. I will happily take credit for it, whether you want to award it to me or not.

I'll repeat: I didn't see a follow up to your post #254 in the DP, and yeah, that seems odd when he was active at the time. I've already shown in my ISO of your behavior that, yes, you did call out his claim. Yes, you did maintain a sus on him. Yes, you did use your N2 check on him. That's not nothing. I just don't like the justification that your lack of follow-up on those questions in the DP was because Thoth tends to be absent when he was there, yet you keep saying it over and over again. And now you're adding another justification, saying that if you'd continued to put attention on Thoth, you'd have put a target on your back, which I don't think was obvious. I'm judging you based on something I think you're being overly defensive about. I'm not judging you as though you were a VT. I'm not ignoring other behaviors. The fact that we're still doing this back-and-forth means I haven't made my decision yet.

Understood. You’ve got my reasoning on Thoth and I’m not going to keep relitigating one follow-up. Weigh it how you see fit.

I’d just ask that when you make the call, you put it next to the big pieces: every result I gave flipped exactly as I said; a fake cop picks his own results and any fake guilty on a townie won DP3; and after Helz claimed Soldier and offered to lynch inside his own pool, I argued against the free scum win and pushed Thoth instead. One missing follow-up on DP2 doesn’t outweigh that. I don't think there was as much of a follow up gap there as "It can wait to be resolved" because regardless of his answers he wasn't going to be lynched and we could pursue him the next day, unless he was a night kill, which would have been optimal for solving him anyway. If you think I am being defensive, it's because I feel like this is kind of a dumb thing to pursue me for. I just don't see this through the same lens as you, maybe I will have to accept that. But if I get lynched over logic like this I am going to be fairly annoyed.

Also I will be going to bed in roughly 3-4 hours tops, I will do my best to maintain composure, but the more tired I get the harder it is to think straight.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 10:59 AM (post #145)

On lunch break catching up some

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 10:47 AM (post #144)

I don't want this to be solely between me and Luna, and I do think some points have been brought up that require your attention.

Why did you townread Thoth early in DP2? That did seem off given a lack of contribution by Thoth at the time, and a shift in perspective from recognizing that lack in DP1. You said it was because he was behaviorally consistent with last game. What gave you that impression?

Fair questions. Mainly

1) I felt there was some genuine effort to game solve

2) I felt his ISO was similar to his previous town games

3) Granted he did have two valid excuses (hurricane and sick) so I was giving him more leeway

Will respond to rest later.

I'll hold off on responding to this until I get the rest.

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 11:09 AM (post #147)

Also I will be going to bed in roughly 3-4 hours tops, I will do my best to maintain composure, but the more tired I get the harder it is to think straight.

I'll get back to the wall of text in a bit, but dude, get some sleep. I'll hold off on making a final call until you're back up this evening.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 9:11 AM (post #149)

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 11:09 AM (post #147)

Also I will be going to bed in roughly 3-4 hours tops, I will do my best to maintain composure, but the more tired I get the harder it is to think straight.

I'll get back to the wall of text in a bit, but dude, get some sleep. I'll hold off on making a final call until you're back up this evening.

If you need to make a decision earlier than that its fine, I probably am not sleeping for at least another couple hours. I don't even know if anything I am saying to you is helping my case at all, if it isn't don't bother arguing with me just to argue, make whatever decision you are comfortable with. But I'll keep replying as long as you do if there's any chance at all I can get you to vote the real scum here in kohai. If this dialogue isn't helping you achieve that, there is kind of no point.