Epstein's Island Mafia DP4

Or maybe Ill try to sleep now so I can be up a little earlier than I have been lately.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 10:47 AM (post #144)

You said you were going to ISO him later in that DP. Why didn't that happen?

This past weekend was extraordinarily busy for me. I had shnagogue and Hebrew school + a whole bunch of extra work to get done. I simply didn’t get around to it.

I'd also like to understand the transition to sussing him better, since much of it happened over the course of DP2. You saw that Magoroth sussed him in the previous DP, and even went so far as to ask Thoth whether he had a Vanillaizing role. What led you to ask Luna and Thoth if they had Vanillaizing roles? Walk me through that thought process.

1. Mag died voting Thoth. If a player was night killed by scum then there is probably a strong reason for it. I stated that explicitly in post 87

2. There was some discussion whether or not this role could have been a town silencer or something of that nature. He was one of ten only people who didn’t claim anything yet

Originally Posted by Lunatic on 10/13/2026 at 11:03 AM (post #146)

Going to start breaking this back up into separate posts so that it's not just a wall of text.

You were the biggest mislynch target, one of the most talked about since dp1. I could have easily got you lynched yesterday. I didn't. I stuck with my result. It's obvious that if I was scum I would lynch you yesterday, not leave you alive and put my balls in a vice grip that lets you crush them dp4 for no reason.

This much I believe. I think coming off of the Blackmail confirmation following Mag1c's lynch, there was bound to be a lot of pressure on me going into DP3. There's a reason I sounded pretty defeated towards the end of the DP, so yes, I believe it would have made sense to put attention on me. The rest makes enough sense as town or scum if I interrogate it, but you would've known going into DP3 that the 1v1 from the previous DP would have put me directly in the crosshairs. It's the strongest point in your favor.

Those issues are based on wrong pre-conceived notions of balance. We have already been screwed by that with magic. We aren't letting it screw us over twice are we?

Said this a couple of times, but those issues with preconceived notions of balance swing both ways. I think the balance looks pretty off regardless of which of you I think is scum, so I'm not really considering balance.

I mean even without a red check on you guys it could have happened, and I disagree that I would have had to have been all in on the start. I made the call to stick with thoth and voted him after helz had pushed heavily for lynching thoths presumed scum partner.

If you were scum with the aim of lynching one of us (Helz, Kohai or me), you would've had to have been all-in from the start of the DP with your claim and use your result to sus one of us. I think we agree on that, despite what you've said here. As for the latter statement, I'm looking back through the progression of DP3 now.

In post #99, Kohai made clear his preference to lynch Thoth.

You pushed back on the decision to lynch between the three of us in #111.

In #121, you shifted to more of a go with the flow position, following Helz's lead.

In #126, you made clear that it was a 50/50 decision for you, changing the math you'd expressed in #111.

In #137, Kohai reaffirmed his view that Thoth should be the lynch.

You VTLed Thoth in #140.

I give both you and Kohai credit for pushing attention back to Thoth. I give you credit for VTLing first. I'd say Kohai's intent was clear and consistent from post #99 onward, while you wavered a bit in your choice. The points are in both your favors.

I was the first person to vote him which started everyone else voting him. I had to get that going, otherwise you guys seemed to be leaning outside of me/thoth scenario. People were considering my results before that and even kohai was spreading paranoia about a bus then. You think I would have just stuck to bussing when I had a clear out given to me by helz? Why? Again Thoth probably wasn't getting lynched had I not voted him first. The mechanic of us not being able to unvote forced everyones hand into that vote.

Yeah, noted above. You were the first to VTL him. I disagree that there was no way a vote was ever going to shift towards Thoth at that point, especially given what Kohai was saying at the time.

As for the "clear out given to [you] by helz", I'll point out again that the "out" was never a vote. There was support for a different decision, one you could have supported as well. You didn't. Neither did Kohai at that point. Maybe Kohai was contemplating it before and could see the writing on the wall. I'm not convinced of that from reading through his posts, but I'll consider it.

I just watched you blatantly tell him he has the edge. I can see the writing on the wall here, and you've already saida the mechanical stuff is more what you care about, and you told him he has an edge on me mechanically. I mean I disagree entirely with that notion, but I just see you voting me and saying something like "I can't get the mechanical issue out of my head, so Im going with lunatic". It's going to be disheartening to lose to something like that.

I said he has the edge on one specific issue, namely the flavor claim. I didn't say he has the edge on every single thing I'm considering, and I've outright said mechanics aren't the only thing I'm considering. Again, dude, I'm engaging with you in good faith. Try to take me at my word.

In the context of "distancing" what pattern have I followed other than being consistently suspicious of the same person? Non committal distancing is by far more scummy imo.

Feel like I've been pretty clear about the patterns I've been seeing, and no, I've never stated that your goal was obviously to distance yourself from him. I don't think either of you were committing to being against Thoth until DP3, so if noncommittal distancing is scummy, then I'd argue that both of you have that knock against you.

I'll get to the rest of this later.

Just realized something. This js now the third game where he fake claimed cop. In each of those games he was the last person to claim.

Majoras Mask - Fake claimed cop with inno on Mag1c. He was caught partially because Mag1c flipped wolf

Apocalypse mafia - Claimed cop as well

This game - Claimed cop

It’s very easy to fake claim cop when you are the last to claim. Notice in none of those games was there a direct counter to cop either.

Make of that what you wish

Hold up. I caught a huge slip from Luna.

He claimed n1 that he had an inno on Helz N1. Go through Luna’s day 2 ISO carefully. At no point did he try and hint to his result, which is something any cop should do. But it gets even worse. He stared

What I find interesting about this analysis is how you are removing certain teams based on loosely explained town reads like Noah and thoth, which feel more like vibe reads, and you lumping me in with helz. You are ignoring a helz/magic bus for some reason, but you also think someone like me who is notorious for bussing as scum (I seriously do it every game, even last game I was scum with Pie I bussed him), yet you think I am paired with helz despite never pushing him once and even defending that I wouldn't lynch him dp1. So your proposing that I randomly switched into a meta where I pro buddying my team mate? The whole POE analysis feels far too early to be put

That bold is where the main slip is. A cop with an inno on Helz wouldn’t say that.

Why didn’t you drop any hints day 2 that you had an inno on Helz? After seeing Helz drop hypo requests you’d think that you’d hypo your results.

The behavior slip gets even worse. During day 1 when Helz was asking for Hypos his reaction

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/8f/epsteins-island-mafia-dp1?comment_number=314

This part actually makes a lot of sense to me. How many times do we lose cops who got innocents on someone and no one knew who the innocent was? While we don't have np0 on this site often, its definitely something that can be useful in the future. I don't think this exposes a cop if every person has to do it, and it doesn't tell them who they are going to cop, only who they would have if they did already. I just disagree with this as a FOS point. The rest is kind of meh in regards to helz. Open to him being scum but I don't know if he's the dp1 lynch based on anything I've seen so far. Shining has done nothing since posting he was here.m

His behavior doesn’t match. Ask yourself: If he’s the cop why doesn’t he drop hyupos or hints? Especially after accepting that mechanic day 1

You’ve got some ‘splainin to do.

Your timeline breaks the theory. Helz claimed Soldier at #44 of DP3. Thoth was still alive. So if my “pocket Helz” plan died at that moment, I had the entire rest of the day to pivot. And Helz handed me the pivot himself. From #60 on, he was pushing to lynch inside the Helz/Kohai/WF pool and leave me and Thoth alone. He even put himself in it. Any lynch there is 2v2 and the game ends on the spot. That’s the scum win, delivered by the town Soldier. What did I do? I argued against it. #111: “you are taking the odds from a 50/50 to a 33/33/33.” I kept pushing until Thoth was hammered. So your theory needs me to have a plan, watch it break, get handed a guaranteed win immediately afterward, and turn it down to lynch my own partner. There’s no version of scum that does that. Pocketing Helz was never the plan. Finding scum was.

I've already covered the timeline here, including post #111. I agree, both you and Kohai had a lot of incentive to lynch among me, Helz and Kohai, with Kohai targeting me and you targeting either Kohai or me. I believe that you both had that opportunity, so one of you had a decision to make and you went with a bus instead. For either of you, when you made that decision, Helz necessarily had to be the NK that NP. That's not uncertain. What is uncertain is which of you made that call.

I personally don't see you highlighting a specific issue with balance other than not loving it. It's always going to be hard to say what is balanced or not without knowing the full set up, but at least from seeing thoth's role pm and the claims we have on the board I could probably say it's a bit swingy and power dependent, but it seems consistent with both sides so far, obviously not accounting for the remaining scum role we don't know about. Nothing really has bugged me about pie signing off on this yet.

Again, I've set aside concerns about balance because I can see them for both sides. I've set those aside.

Nah. I deserve every ounce of credit for that lynch. With all due respect to helz, he was about to gamble that between you and kohai, and from the looks of it, he was leaning voting you last day phase. Me forcing the vote onto thoth, who I knew was scum based on my result potentially saved the game here. I am not convinced you guys were lynching thoth without my severe push. I will happily take credit for it, whether you want to award it to me or not.

Based on the timeline I'm reading (look at my previous post), Kohai was poised to make the same decision you did. Helz had already said that we all had to be aligned to successfully lynch last DP. The fact that he hadn't locked in yet and you had is a point in your favor. His consistency from post #99 onward is a point in his.

Understood. You’ve got my reasoning on Thoth and I’m not going to keep relitigating one follow-up. Weigh it how you see fit.

I’d just ask that when you make the call, you put it next to the big pieces: every result I gave flipped exactly as I said; a fake cop picks his own results and any fake guilty on a townie won DP3; and after Helz claimed Soldier and offered to lynch inside his own pool, I argued against the free scum win and pushed Thoth instead. One missing follow-up on DP2 doesn’t outweigh that. I don't think there was as much of a follow up gap there as "It can wait to be resolved" because regardless of his answers he wasn't going to be lynched and we could pursue him the next day, unless he was a night kill, which would have been optimal for solving him anyway. If you think I am being defensive, it's because I feel like this is kind of a dumb thing to pursue me for. I just don't see this through the same lens as you, maybe I will have to accept that. But if I get lynched over logic like this I am going to be fairly annoyed.

We've been over the consistency of the flips and your results. I've covered that multiple times now, though if you're just looking for where I've landed with it, I'll say it's more likely than not a positive sign.

The phrasing on some of this, however, is a little off. You said that you "argued against the free scum win" by arguing that we should lynch Thoth. Knowing what you know now, the "free scum win" would only have happened if we'd lynched Helz (wasn't going to happen) or me (a reasonable possibility). The Kohai lynch, from your perspective, would have successfully eliminated scum, so no, lynching among the three of us wasn't a "free scum win" by default.

I'm going to set aside my issues with your follow-up to Thoth for now. I think you have a point about how you followed up in different ways, even if the main one - the red check - is one I can't verify you got.

It's not just one issue, man. I'm considering a lot of points, and yes, that's going to take time and effort to go through. Regardless of the outcome, I want my choice to be as fully informed as possible. And yeah, that's going to require kicking all the tires.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 10:59 AM (post #145)

On lunch break catching up some

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 10:47 AM (post #144)

I don't want this to be solely between me and Luna, and I do think some points have been brought up that require your attention.

Why did you townread Thoth early in DP2? That did seem off given a lack of contribution by Thoth at the time, and a shift in perspective from recognizing that lack in DP1. You said it was because he was behaviorally consistent with last game. What gave you that impression?

Fair questions. Mainly

1) I felt there was some genuine effort to game solve

Could you point me to the posts where you saw him trying to solve?

2) I felt his ISO was similar to his previous town games

Could you give me examples of similar behavior from previous games, particularly DP1 and early DP2?

3) Granted he did have two valid excuses (hurricane and sick) so I was giving him more leeway

Fair, I think we all were.

You said you were going to ISO him later in that DP. Why didn't that happen?

This past weekend was extraordinarily busy for me. I had shnagogue and Hebrew school + a whole bunch of extra work to get done. I simply didn’t get around to it.

Alright. I'd still like to understand what that ISO would have looked like, hence the above questions.

I'd also like to understand the transition to sussing him better, since much of it happened over the course of DP2. You saw that Magoroth sussed him in the previous DP, and even went so far as to ask Thoth whether he had a Vanillaizing role. What led you to ask Luna and Thoth if they had Vanillaizing roles? Walk me through that thought process.

1. Mag died voting Thoth. If a player was night killed by scum then there is probably a strong reason for it. I stated that explicitly in post 87

So that was the major reason? Nothing behavioral?

2. There was some discussion whether or not this role could have been a town silencer or something of that nature. He was one of ten only people who didn’t claim anything yet

I think you meant "one of the only people," but I get your point. I was the one who had expressed concerns about the existence of a town role that Vanillaizes. Between that and the earlier statement about concern over a Vanillaizer, I do have my doubts, though I have a hard time believing you both would be that blatant.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 12:39 PM (post #154)

Just realized something. This js now the third game where he fake claimed cop. In each of those games he was the last person to claim.

Majoras Mask - Fake claimed cop with inno on Mag1c. He was caught partially because Mag1c flipped wolf

Apocalypse mafia - Claimed cop as well

This game - Claimed cop

It’s very easy to fake claim cop when you are the last to claim. Notice in none of those games was there a direct counter to cop either.

Make of that what you wish

Technically speaking, he wasn't the last person to claim this game. Helz full claimed after him, having lied about the Soldier bit. Thoth never claimed, but that's not important. He does have a tendency to fake claim Cop, you're right about that. It's pretty clear he recognizes it, and he's always slow to claim it, using the opportunity of not having an apparent CC as a reason to get in there. In this game especially, given the relative paucity of investigatives, it's not really a question of whether he could have seen the opportunity and used it. It's a question of whether he'd use it like this.

Hold up. I caught a huge slip from Luna.

He claimed n1 that he had an inno on Helz N1. Go through Luna’s day 2 ISO carefully. At no point did he try and hint to his result, which is something any cop should do. But it gets even worse. He stared

What I find interesting about this analysis is how you are removing certain teams based on loosely explained town reads like Noah and thoth, which feel more like vibe reads, and you lumping me in with helz.You are ignoring a helz/magic bus for some reason, but you also think someone like me who is notorious for bussing as scum (I seriously do it every game, even last game I was scum with Pie I bussed him), yet you think I am paired with helz despite never pushing him once and even defending that I wouldn't lynch him dp1. So your proposing that I randomly switched into a meta where I pro buddying my team mate? The whole POE analysis feels far too early to be put

That bold is where the main slip is. A cop with an inno on Helz wouldn’t say that.

I see your point, but I wouldn't expect a Cop to just outright trust their results straight up. I'll also note that Helz ISO'd him as well and wasn't put off by any of his posts, finding examples of a shifting posture. It's not nothing, but mentioning a possibility once isn't that damning.

The behavior slip gets even worse. During day 1 when Helz was asking for Hypos his reaction

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/8f/epsteins-island-mafia-dp1?comment_number=314

This part actually makes a lot of sense to me. How many times do we lose cops who got innocents on someone and no one knew who the innocent was?While we don't have np0 on this site often, its definitely something that can be useful in the future. I don't think this exposes a cop if every person has to do it, and it doesn't tell them who they are going to cop, only who they would have if they did already. I just disagree with this as a FOS point. The rest is kind of meh in regards to helz. Open to him being scum but I don't know if he's the dp1 lynch based on anything I've seen so far. Shining has done nothing since posting he was here.m

His behavior doesn’t match. Ask yourself: If he’s the cop why doesn’t he drop hyupos or hints? Especially after accepting that mechanic day 1

A bit better. He's definitely indicating that, if he was the Cop, he'd drop some hints in the DP. He hasn't indicated that he did, and aside from some light read changes, I didn't see anything. Maybe that means he hadn't established it as his fake claim. Maybe that's a misdirect aimed at giving scum less of an indication that he's the Cop.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:23 PM (post #161)

A bit better. He's definitely indicating that, if he was the Cop, he'd drop some hints in the DP. He hasn't indicated that he did, and aside from some light read changes, I didn't see anything. Maybe that means he hadn't established it as his fake claim.

This is the only explanation that makes sense.

Maybe that's a misdirect aimed at giving scum less of an indication that he's the Cop.

But that makes no sense. If he himself admitted hypo targets were a good idea how would we possibly have figured out he got an N1 inno on Helz jr he actually was the cop?

mobike posting will respond to other stuff later

I'm going to let you guys cook with responses for a while. I know Luna will be longer, but I'll plan to pick this back up towards the end of the workday and see if Kohai has posted any more details. More is better in this case, these short responses aren't really telling me much.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:33 PM (post #163)

I'm going to let you guys cook with responses for a while. I know Luna will be longer, but I'll plan to pick this back up towards the end of the workday and see if Kohai has posted any more details. More is better in this case, these short responses aren't really telling me much.

Fair points.

If you were forced to vote right this second who would you vote for and why?

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 1:33 PM (post #162)

Saw this, responding before I go.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:23 PM (post #161)

A bit better. He's definitely indicating that, if he was the Cop, he'd drop some hints in the DP. He hasn't indicated that he did, and aside from some light read changes, I didn't see anything. Maybe that means he hadn't established it as his fake claim.

This is the only explanation that makes sense.

Maybe that's a misdirect aimed at giving scum less of an indication that he's the Cop.

But that makes no sense. If he himself admitted hypo targets were a good idea how would we possibly have figured out he got an N1 inno on Helz jr he actually was the cop?

The idea here would have been that he was signaling to scum "I'm not doing this, therefore you shouldn't believe I'm the Cop." I've got issues with that read, mainly because it's a little too weird. It would mean he's drawing attention to minor cues and then failing to give them purposefully just to draw attention away from him, while simultaneously recognizing that doing so is a net negative for town.

mobike posting will respond to other stuff later

Alright, take your time and post more thoroughly in response to my questions if possible.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 1:35 PM (post #164)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:33 PM (post #163)

I'm going to let you guys cook with responses for a while. I know Luna will be longer, but I'll plan to pick this back up towards the end of the workday and see if Kohai has posted any more details. More is better in this case, these short responses aren't really telling me much.

Fair points.

If you were forced to vote right this second who would you vote for and why?

I'm not going to engage with that, sorry. I get the sentiment, but I feel I need to get a more in-depth conversation going between the two of us before I can make a clear call. I have a stronger basis for how I'm seeing Luna right now than I do for you, so that means the decision would be colored by that lack of clarity.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:39 PM (post #166)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 1:35 PM (post #164)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:33 PM (post #163)

I'm going to let you guys cook with responses for a while. I know Luna will be longer, but I'll plan to pick this back up towards the end of the workday and see if Kohai has posted any more details. More is better in this case, these short responses aren't really telling me much.

Fair points.

If you were forced to vote right this second who would you vote for and why?

I'm not going to engage with that, sorry. I get the sentiment, but I feel I need to get a more in-depth conversation going between the two of us before I can make a clear call. I have a stronger basis for how I'm seeing Luna right now than I do for you, so that means the decision would be colored by that lack of clarity.

Fair. I get off work at 330 then have Hebrew school till 5. I’ll be on aound 515 and we can hash things out

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 1:41 PM (post #167)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:39 PM (post #166)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 1:35 PM (post #164)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 1:33 PM (post #163)

I'm going to let you guys cook with responses for a while. I know Luna will be longer, but I'll plan to pick this back up towards the end of the workday and see if Kohai has posted any more details. More is better in this case, these short responses aren't really telling me much.

Fair points.

If you were forced to vote right this second who would you vote for and why?

I'm not going to engage with that, sorry. I get the sentiment, but I feel I need to get a more in-depth conversation going between the two of us before I can make a clear call. I have a stronger basis for how I'm seeing Luna right now than I do for you, so that means the decision would be colored by that lack of clarity.

Fair. I get off work at 330 then have Hebrew school till 5. I’ll be on aound 515 and we can hash things out

Alright, then I'll make it a slightly longer break. Better to take my mind off of this for a while.

I'll be back in about an hr or so but one more thing I want you to really consider behavior wise: We now know the blackmailer was one shot. Thoth hard claimed being blackmailed and shut up for the rest of the day phase. Why would I, if I was Thoth's partner, have him make this play? It was a clear setup for a very hard bus from the beginning.

At this point I feel like I"m just repeating myself ad nauseum and just screaming into a void with no one even bothering to listen to me

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #170)

At this point I feel like I"m just repeating myself ad nauseum and just screaming into a void with no one even bothering to listen to me

I mean, I'm reading everything you've got, and I'm sure you'll get responses from Luna as well. It's not just going into the void.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #169)

I'll be back in about an hr or so but one more thing I want you to really consider behavior wise: We now know the blackmailer was one shot. Thoth hard claimed being blackmailed and shut up for the rest of the day phase. Why would I, if I was Thoth's partner, have him make this play? It was a clear setup for a very hard bus from the beginning.

Pretty clear that, regardless of which of you is scum, it was a bussing tactic.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 4:10 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #169)

I'll be back in about an hr or so but one more thing I want you to really consider

behavior wise: We now know the blackmailer was one shot. Thoth hard claimed being blackmailed and shut up for the rest of the day phase. Why would I, if I was Thoth's partner, have him make this play? It was a clear setup for a very hard bus from the beginning.

Pretty clear that, regardless of which of you is scum, it was a bussing tactic.

Exactly. That was Luna’s plan. Hard claim guilty on partner, make him shut up and make him claim he was blackmailed

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:25 PM (post #173)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 4:10 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #169)

I'll be back in about an hr or so but one more thing I want you to really consider

behavior wise: We now know the blackmailer was one shot. Thoth hard claimed being blackmailed and shut up for the rest of the day phase. Why would I, if I was Thoth's partner, have him make this play? It was a clear setup for a very hard bus from the beginning.

Pretty clear that, regardless of which of you is scum, it was a bussing tactic.

Exactly. That was Luna’s plan. Hard claim guilty on partner, make him shut up and make him claim he was blackmailed

The question for me is, would he be likely to do that when he already had the comparatively simpler option of just getting me lynched?

I’d actually like your thoughts on that as well when you get around to answering the questions I posed earlier. I know from your perspective, that would have to be the only option. But put yourself in my shoes. Can you explain why Luna would favor pocketing Helz last DP over just getting a fake red check on me and pushing for my lynch?

I have less time this evening than I thought since my wife has a performance she wants us to attend. I’ll still be available tonight, though there might be a couple of hours in there where I’m not. Just a heads up.

I'm here. I've really feel like I said all I could at this point. Just ask yourself the following questions:

1) Does Luna's D2 behavior match that of a cop with a n1 inno on Helz?

2) Does his behavior match up with his day 1 bandwagoning the hypos?

3) Does the mech and flavor add up?

Luna's claim does not match either the flavor, mechanics, nor his behavior.

Barely over 12 hours left

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 6:07 PM (post #176)

I'm here. I've really feel like I said all I could at this point. Just ask yourself the following questions:

1) Does Luna's D2 behavior match that of a cop with a n1 inno on Helz?

2) Does his behavior match up with his day 1 bandwagoning the hypos?

3) Does the mech and flavor add up?

Luna's claim does not match either the flavor, mechanics, nor his behavior.

Well, I’d appreciate responses to #160 and #174 before you leave off. I’ve seen a lot of reasons why I should sus Luna from you, but just short defenses of yourself and no real response to the question of why Luna chose to bus Thoth rather than push for a lynch on me or you last DP.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 5:47 PM (post #174)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:25 PM (post #173)

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 10/13/2026 at 4:10 PM (post #172)

Originally Posted by Kohai on 10/13/2026 at 4:04 PM (post #169)

I'll be back in about an hr or so but one more thing I want you to really consider

behavior wise: We now know the blackmailer was one shot. Thoth hard claimed being blackmailed and shut up for the rest of the day phase. Why would I, if I was Thoth's partner, have him make this play? It was a clear setup for a very hard bus from the beginning.

Pretty clear that, regardless of which of you is scum, it was a bussing tactic.

Exactly. That was Luna’s plan. Hard claim guilty on partner, make him shut up and make him claim he was blackmailed

The question for me is, would he be likely to do that when he already had the comparatively simpler option of just getting me lynched?

Yes. It's clear that scum was planning to bus Thoth. What motive do I have to tell Thoth to fake that he was blackmailed?

I’d actually like your thoughts on that as well when you get around to answering the questions I posed earlier. I know from your perspective, that would have to be the only option. But put yourself in my shoes. Can you explain why Luna would favor pocketing Helz last DP over just getting a fake red check on me and pushing for my lynch?

Faking red checks on town is a very risky move for scum. For one, there is still the unknown of whether or not yourself or another town member could clear you. Second, if you are going ot fake claim cop you're gonna have go give us something. It's very easy for scum to fake cop results.

"Could you point me to the posts where you saw him trying to solve?"

Yes

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/8f/epsteins-island-mafia-dp1?comment_number=393

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/8f/epsteins-island-mafia-dp1?comment_number=267

https://www.debatecraft.com/mafia/c/active-games/posts/8f/epsteins-island-mafia-dp1?comment_number=290

"Could you give me examples of similar behavior from previous games, particularly DP1 and early DP2?"

His ISO felt simiilar to his iso in from mafia