Retro Mafia - DP4

His being flipless is not at all associated with his role, I can confirm that. As for why my role removes the flip, I couldn’t say, but that’s what it did. I’ll take it since it means scum don’t know about my role now.

So you’re confident that the flipless isn’t part of his role or that maybe he just hid it from you?

Vader in particular, actually. I don’t mind claiming after he does, but he’s been radio silent in our chat for 2 days and hasn’t confirmed any night actions. I think he should be the priority claim at this point, especially since I’m apparently the only one who knows his character and role. That should be public information up for discussion at this point.

So neither of them have revealed their character and role to you?

So you’re confident that the flipless isn’t part of his role or that maybe he just hid it from you?

I received a PM detailing his role as well as a short video showing Kirby absorbing Mario. If he’s flipless as a result of his role, then Mikal is hiding elements of his role from me, not Luna.

So neither of them have revealed their character and role to you?

They both have. I know everyone’s character and role claims at this stage. Vader has not revealed his night action. That’s what I’m seeking.

Glad you're so aloof in Discord, that I can so easily scroll back... I'm of course finding it interesting what you're leaving out from the chat to paint me as scum, and what you're adding in...

Ragnar, and he had already indicated that he had a PR of some sort in our Mason chat

During the day1 I did not suggest I had any power role. I literally specified not having any ability to kill anyone, and indicated if a certain proud and white member of town survived the night, it would be evidence I was neither scum nor a vigilante.

Later in the same night, I told you that I received a second use of my power, and very shortly thereafter that if I died it meant a 33% chance someone tried to kill you (low on time, had to make a snap decision).

Since you think I'm scum, please explain your theory for how I knew we had a motivator, knew he would target me (I think it's more likely he targeted whiteflame, but all the same), and knew that both you and whiteflame wouldn't be targeted by anything with notifications from other townies that night? Hell, I'd have been lynched DP2 if whiteflame received the second action while I was pretending to lightening rod him.

...

Also worth noting that he suggested that I waive on NP3. 

Yeah, you only have two shots with your power; having it in play tonight when we have good information, would have been better than whatever shot in the dark... But let's explore this a touch more, you think I'm scum, and talked you out of using your power; why would I then waste a valuable RB on you in spite of the assumption that you'd take no action?

I am Legend of Zelda. Apparently I am Zelda as a whole because my two actions are "Lens of Truth" and "Master Sword" and neither of those are in the orginal Zelda. Lens of Truth allows me to Track who someone visited the previous night and Master Sword is a PGO I can invoke and any and all who visit me get wounded and die the next night. NP2, I targeted Rex and saw that he visited Pie NP1. I have yet to use my PGO.

I am Legend of Zelda. Apparently I am Zelda as a whole because my two actions are "Lens of Truth" and "Master Sword" and neither of those are in the orginal Zelda. Lens of Truth allows me to Track who someone visited the previous night and Master Sword is a PGO I can invoke and any and all who visit me get wounded and die the next night. NP2, I targeted Rex and saw that he visited Pie NP1. I have yet to use my PGO.

Hmm, that’s a borderline CC of REF’s claim. The PGO is also interesting. What’s the reason you didn’t use it NP1 or NP3?

Hmm, that’s a borderline CC of REF’s claim.

I flagged that too, though a) he knew that Rex had visited you NP1 and told me so before Rex posted what he did, b) Rex tracked Earth to himself NP2, which is consistent with his stated action. All this would look a lot more convenient if not for the Mason chat.

The PGO is also interesting. What’s the reason you didn’t use it NP1 or NP3?

I’ll leave it to him to explain NP1, but both Mharman and I agreed he should not use it NP3. Too much risk of another resulting death since we didn’t know what Rex would do.

Knowing what you know right now, what’s the order of most scum to least scum for you? Rank each person from 1-7.

I didn't use it NP1 because it just seemed like a terrible idea, and using it still seems bad.

Why did you choose to see what REF did?

I can give details on the why a bit later, but my list would be (from most scummy to least)

1. Casey
2. Vader
3. Pie
4. Earth
5. Rex
6. Ragnar
7. Whiteflame

During the day1 I did not suggest I had any power role. I literally specified not having any ability to kill anyone, and indicated if a certain proud and white member of town survived the night, it would be evidence I was neither scum nor a vigilante.

So this is wrong on a couple of counts. For one thing, you did clearly indicate to me that you had a PR. You told me that you had no scum pile and were considering using RNG to figure out who to target. Also you said that if Mharman died on NP1, that would make you look bad because he'd be your target if you were scum or a Vig. But if you're aware that him dying would make you look bad, then of course you'd avoid doing that. That's just a pure WIFOM argument.

Since you think I'm scum, please explain your theory for how I knew we had a motivator, knew he would target me (I think it's more likely he targeted whiteflame, but all the same), and knew that both you and whiteflame wouldn't be targeted by anything with notifications from other townies that night?

You yourself got Motivated as scum. Simple explanation.

Yeah, you only have two shots with your power; having it in play tonight when we have good information, would have been better than whatever shot in the dark... But let's explore this a touch more, you think I'm scum, and talked you out of using your power; why would I then waste a valuable RB on you in spite of the assumption that you'd take no action?

I didn't even tell you that I was going to waive or who I was thinking of targeting. You would have had no way of knowing if I was going to waive or who I was going to target if I didn't.

Hmm, that’s a borderline CC of REF’s claim.

I agree. I'm thinking the team might just be Shining/Ragnar. Still want to see Vader's claim however.

I discussed this with WF, but there were a few candidates, but I settled on Rex because I still didn't get a good feel on him and my other choices were you (not a good pick for fairly obvious reasons) and casey. Its possible WF is fooling me, but I townread him, and Mhar was a gut town read for me.

I discussed this with WF, but there were a few candidates, but I settled on Rex because I still didn't get a good feel on him and my other choices were you (not a good pick for fairly obvious reasons) and casey. Its possible WF is fooling me, but I townread him, and Mhar was a gut town read for me.

Okay, here’s a question for you: why do you townread WF?

I literally specified not having any ability to kill anyone, and indicated if a certain proud and white member of town survived the night, it would be evidence I was neither scum nor a vigilante.

So this is wrong on a couple of counts. ... Also you said that if Mharman died on NP1, that would make you look bad because he'd be your target if you were scum or a Vig.

*slow clap* Oh you got me there, no way could anyone could mistake me saying I'd kill him if I could, for me saying I'd kill him if I could; you caught the lie, I said I'd kill him not that I would kill him... Perfectly logical counter claim in your world... A world in which I sincerely hope no one else lives.

Since you think I'm scum, please explain your theory for how I knew we had a motivator, knew he would target me (I think it's more likely he targeted whiteflame, but all the same), and knew that both you and whiteflame wouldn't be targeted by anything with notifications from other townies that night?

You yourself got Motivated as scum. Simple explanation.

So now your theory is expanding to scum having motivators (I guess out host is lying about Magic?), which instead of using to kill anyone (or any other useful effect), we waste it to get a second use of a lightening rod... All while telling both targets of it who in all was selected, so any cop investigating any of them would in turn investigate me, and you'd all know of the misdirect and lynch me DP2 (the same applies for trackers seeing me carrying out a kill, etc).

Yeah, you only have two shots with your power; having it in play tonight when we have good information, would have been better than whatever shot in the dark... But let's explore this a touch more, you think I'm scum, and talked you out of using your power; why would I then waste a valuable RB on you in spite of the assumption that you'd take no action?

I didn't even tell you that I was going to waive or who I was thinking of targeting. You would have had no way of knowing if I was going to waive or who I was going to target if I didn't.

If I particularly cared and thought you were town, I would have buddies up and gotten the information from you. Whenever you were on, you were seemingly busy in another chat, which made me less inclined to trust you... Also your earlier assumptions relied on me knowing what everyone's roles and actions are ahead of time to know no investigations would go towards you or whiteflame, why is that incredible foresight you're basing your theory on no longer in play when it's no longer convenient?

You're wanting to have your cake and eat it too, and the required assumptions for it are truly moronic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

Alright, so I’ll start from the bottom and work my way up.

Ragnar: He was made pretty thoroughly aware of plans that Mharman and I put together to manage the two back-to-back NPs, placing him or his partner in a uniquely advantaged position to execute an NK with little effort. Considering that could have put us at MYLO, I don’t think he’d pass that up. Aside from that, the Lightning Rod is a very odd choice for scum, since it’s easily disprovable based on literally anything hitting his target and not him.

Rex - those results track well with what I know of both Mharman’s night actions and Earth’s. There’s an outside chance that he has scum roles that he could use for Tracking, but this amount and this accurately stated doesn’t make much sense from a scum perspective.

Earth - similar reasons to Rex, though a one-time use just isn’t as foolproof. Rex confirmed what he did as well. The pseudo-CC bothers me, but not enough to shift my read substantially.

Pie - role confirmed, largely townread behaviorally, and Rex getting a result on him consistent with his. Pie’s been at an interesting crossroads with him being the sole contact at night with Rex, and I have little reason to disbelieve him, but it’s the least confirmation of anyone I’ve already listed.

Vader - if we’re being honest, I don’t think Vader or Casey is more scummy. They equally stand out. I’ll just claim for him since Vader’s taking so long: he claimed Space Invaders and 1X Absorber. So many issues:

1. it’s a pseudo-CC of my role
2. he didn’t seem to understand how the role worked when I questioned him, saying he could be given a Vig shot, which did not make sense. The role absorbs non-killing roles used on it.
3. Vader getting Space Invaders? Really?
4. the justification is entirely unclear. He mentioned something about a Fragment Shield generator and, despite my best efforts, I haven’t found any information on what that is let alone how it works. Asked two days ago, haven’t heard anything since.

Casey - Casey’s main problem is just how many pseudo-CCs there are, and here’s where I’ll out a bit of information: when I absorbed Luna, he had already used an RB role, one that would solely have worked on scum (yes, I’m aware that Ragnar is also a pseudo-CC on that). That plus the existence of a Doctor (Mharman’s role) and a protective role from Luna (I’ll provide specifics later) means that Casey’s Alien role is pseudo-CC’d twice, both as an RB and as a protective role.

I also haven’t liked either of their behaviors. I have reason to back Ragnar’s view of events between him and Casey, and Vader just vanished after some pretty weak attention to the DP and some defense of Casey, which stood out to me.

Ragnar: He was made pretty thoroughly aware of plans that Mharman and I put together to manage the two back-to-back NPs, placing him or his partner in a uniquely advantaged position to execute an NK with little effort. Considering that could have put us at MYLO, I don’t think he’d pass that up. Aside from that, the Lightning Rod is a very odd choice for scum, since it’s easily disprovable based on literally anything hitting his target and not him.

So you told Ragnar the entire plan? Who knew the plan in it’s entirety?

Rex - those results track well with what I know of both Mharman’s night actions and Earth’s. There’s an outside chance that he has scum roles that he could use for Tracking, but this amount and this accurately stated doesn’t make much sense from a scum perspective.

REF is my top townie. Been that way for a while now. Plus he’s the only investigative role basically. His role is basically a CC of Earth’s, so right now my top scumread is Earth. I’ll expand more on that below.

Earth - similar reasons to Rex, though a one-time use just isn’t as foolproof. Rex confirmed what he did as well. The pseudo-CC bothers me, but not enough to shift my read substantially.

Here’s the issue I have with Earth. He soft claimed 1980s for his character. The Legend of Zelda 1986 is the only one that fits that. In that game though, there is no Lens of Truth or Master Sword. The link between Lens of Truth and Tracker doesn’t make sense nor does Master Sword and PGO. I’ve played OoT, MM, and WW. The claim doesn’t add up at all.

Pie - role confirmed, largely townread behaviorally, and Rex getting a result on him consistent with his. Pie’s been at an interesting crossroads with him being the sole contact at night with Rex, and I have little reason to disbelieve him, but it’s the least confirmation of anyone I’ve already listed.

Can confirm that I’m town.

Vader - if we’re being honest, I don’t think Vader or Casey is more scummy. They equally stand out. I’ll just claim for him since Vader’s taking so long: he claimed Space Invaders and 1X Absorber. So many issues:

That’s definitely an odd claim.

it’s a pseudo-CC of my role

When did you find out his role?

he didn’t seem to understand how the role worked when I questioned him, saying he could be given a Vig shot, which did not make sense. The role absorbs non-killing roles used on it.

Vader getting Space Invaders? Really?

the justification is entirely unclear. He mentioned something about a Fragment Shield generator and, despite my best efforts, I haven’t found any information on what that is let alone how it works. Asked two days ago, haven’t heard anything since.

Ya not much we can do until he comes back

Casey - Casey’s main problem is just how many pseudo-CCs there are, and here’s where I’ll out a bit of information: when I absorbed Luna, he had already used an RB role, one that would solely have worked on scum

Wait you absorbed Luna and he has a Roleblocker that exclusively worked on Mafia? That’s really really unusual. How did you townread Lunatic off of that?

(yes, I’m aware that Ragnar is also a pseudo-CC on that). That plus the existence of a Doctor (Mharman’s role) and a protective role from Luna (I’ll provide specifics later) means that Casey’s Alien role is pseudo-CC’d twice, both as an RB and as a protective role.

So Luna also had a protective role in addition to a roleblocker that only worked on scum? And you absorbed these roles. And you don’t know why Luna’s role is flipless? I’m having a heard time believing that. It all sounds like awfully convenient evidence against Casey. The only thing I can believe is that Mharman had a 1x Doctor. Which is yes a pseudo-CC of Casey’s role, but Earth also has that with REF.

I also haven’t liked either of their behaviors. I have reason to back Ragnar’s view of events between him and Casey, and Vader just vanished after some pretty weak attention to the DP and some defense of Casey, which stood out to me.

What reason do you have to back Ragnar’s view of events?

I will have a lot more time to go over the other DPs on Monday, just got caught up on this DP. Off the cuff reads are:

Whiteflame: Town

Pie: Town

Ragnar: Null

Casey: Lean Scum

Supa: Lean Scum

Earth: Scum

I think Pie's arguments for Shining/Earth make a lot of sense. The Lens of Truth makes sense as a rolecop or a cop, less sense as tracker or watcher or something along those lines. It also seems bizarre to have a tracker and a 1x delayed tracker in the same game. Also seems bizarre to have a PGO and a Beloved Princess - seems absurdly swingy. I'm also less convinced by his results on me. I said something in DP2 iirc that I now trust pie and that he's my top townread so I disclosed my role to him. Earth could have easily surmised from that post that I had an investigative role and had used it on Pie DP1 - plus I think that investigating your mason partner if you have an investigative role is kind of a no-brainer. If Earth did rolecop me DP2 it would be even less of a huge stretch once he knew that I was a tracker to claim that he saw me visit Pie DP1.

I will have a lot more time to go over the other DPs on Monday, just got caught up on this DP. Off the cuff reads are:

Whiteflame: Town

Pie: Town

Ragnar: Null

Casey: Lean Scum

Supa: Lean Scum

Earth: Scum

I think Pie's arguments for Shining/Earth make a lot of sense. The Lens of Truth makes sense as a rolecop or a cop, less sense as tracker or watcher or something along those lines. It also seems bizarre to have a tracker and a 1x delayed tracker in the same game. Also seems bizarre to have a PGO and a Beloved Princess - seems absurdly swingy. I'm also less convinced by his results on me. I said something in DP2 iirc that I now trust pie and that he's my top townread so I disclosed my role to him. Earth could have easily surmised from that post that I had an investigative role and had used it on Pie DP1 - plus I think that investigating your mason partner if you have an investigative role is kind of a no-brainer. If Earth did rolecop me DP2 it would be even less of a huge stretch once he knew that I was a tracker to claim that he saw me visit Pie DP1.

I'll admit my claim is sketchy, but chew Mikal out for bastard modding. I have no idea why he didn't just make me OoT. Mikal said I am "Zelda as a whole", but it seems like I am the only person who is like that. My PM even has the release year in it, so what the fuck Mikal.

So you told Ragnar the entire plan? Who knew the plan in it’s entirety?

Mharman, Ragnar and me.

Here’s the issue I have with Earth. He soft claimed 1980s for his character. The Legend of Zelda 1986 is the only one that fits that. In that game though, there is no Lens of Truth or Master Sword. The link between Lens of Truth and Tracker doesn’t make sense nor does Master Sword and PGO. I’ve played OoT, MM, and WW. The claim doesn’t add up at all.

Doesn’t explain how he knew Rex’s NP1 night action and visited him the following night, by Rex’s own confirmation. I understand that the claim itself isn’t accurate to this specific game, and I was sussing him myself for his claim, but he’s also hardly alone in having a pseudo-CC on the table.

When did you find out his role?

Shortly after NP2 started.

Wait you absorbed Luna and he has a Roleblocker that exclusively worked on Mafia? That’s really really unusual. How did you townread Lunatic off of that?

I had enough basis for townreading him onto that point. The Mario claim and behavior were the biggest parts of that - played with him several times as scum and I saw no indication of anything after he recruited me. The claim of the RB was the only thing that made me second-guess what was still one of my stronger townreads at the time.

So Luna also had a protective role in addition to a roleblocker that only worked on scum? And you absorbed these roles. And you don’t know why Luna’s role is flipless? I’m having a heard time believing that. It all sounds like awfully convenient evidence against Casey. The only thing I can believe is that Mharman had a 1x Doctor. Which is yes a pseudo-CC of Casey’s role, but Earth also has that with REF

I absorbed his roles, yes. I had access to only those roles he had not used, so the RB was off the table by the time I got it.

I do know why he’s flipless: my role. I said I was surprised by it because the flipless aspect wasn’t described in my PM. I asked Mikal after the fact and it was confirmed that my role was responsible.

I don’t know why you’re talking about believing Mharman’s role. We have his flip. He had a 1X Doc, plus a 1X Healer, though we still don’t know what that applies to. And, again, that’s pseudo-CC on two different fronts: protective and role blocking. Unless you believe both Ragnar and I are faking our roles, both apply to Casey’s claim.

What reason do you have to back Ragnar’s view of events?

I’ve already stated why in large part in my reasons for townreading Ragnar, which are all reasons for me to back his view. Aspects of Casey’s story don’t line up with what I’m hearing from Ragnar either, though I’ll have to come back to that later. I would like to understand why you’re townreading Casey.

Earth also kind of hopped on my retard wagon DP2 wordlessly, just sheeping me, which after the flip always struck me as a bit sus. The main thing that makes me scumread Supa less (even though his severe inactivity reaaaaally has me side-eying him) is that Supa actually argued against the RT lynch and tried to derail it. If I was scum and I knew that Rex was town and that RT was telling the truth about his role I would sheep if I needed to, to make the lynch go through while avoiding as much blame as possible.

Since I’ve acknowledged the issues with his character and role claims, I’ll just address the rest of this.

It also seems bizarre to have a tracker and a 1x delayed tracker in the same game.

Ragnar and I have claimed two different versions of RBs and you have us both as town. I agree, there’s a lot of pseudo-CCs this game, but some of them have to be real.

Also seems bizarre to have a PGO and a Beloved Princess - seems absurdly swingy.

Doesnt seem like a strong case against him, seen plenty of swingy games with worse than that.

I'm also less convinced by his results on me. I said something in DP2 iirc that I now trust pie and that he's my top townread so I disclosed my role to him. Earth could have easily surmised from that post that I had an investigative role and had used it on Pie DP1 - plus I think that investigating your mason partner if you have an investigative role is kind of a no-brainer.

If Earth did rolecop me DP2 it would be even less of a huge stretch once he knew that I was a tracker to claim that he saw me visit Pie DP1.

At least from my interactions with him, I don’t buy that he big brained this and just figured you out. He seemed very set on Pie at first and changed his mind while we discussed it. I also think it was a massive risk to give me his result before even learning what your role was. I think you’re assuming a lot. I also think it’s doubly odd that, finding out that you were a Tracker NP2, he would then proceed or his scum partner to kill Mharman rather than kill the obvious investigative role.

This is going to likely just be a point of disagreement between us, but I think scumreading Earth on the basis that he could have faked his result doesn’t make as much sense as you appear to believe.

Just noticed you said Ragnar was null, that was my error. My point that there is likely at least one pseudo-CC in the game still stands, though. There are lots of claims with overlapping roles.

At least from my interactions with him, I don’t buy that he big brained this and just figured you out. He seemed very set on Pie at first and changed his mind while we discussed it. I also think it was a massive risk to give me his result before even learning what your role was. I think you’re assuming a lot. I also think it’s doubly odd that, finding out that you were a Tracker NP2, he would then proceed or his scum partner to kill Mharman rather than kill the obvious investigative role.

Was info about Mharman's role known NP3? It seems like there was some kind of plan that multiple people knew about - if one person in that circle was scum then they might know that he had some manner of protective role. If they knew that and also knew that Mharman didn't know that they knew, then that would be the ideal time to NK him. I don't really know Earth/Shining's level of acumen, having never played with him before, but if he is scum then he's on a team with other people who could have told him what to tell you regarding my night action and helped him to craft a fake claim. Maybe he's not up to the task of figuring it out himself as you seem to be implying (I personally don't know the guy), but if he had a competent scum team/partner he wouldn't need to.

Was info about Mharman's role known NP3? It seems like there was some kind of plan that multiple people knew about - if one person in that circle was scum then they might know that he had some manner of protective role. If they knew that and also knew that Mharman didn't know that they knew, then that would be the ideal time to NK him.

Assuming that’s true, you would also have to believe that the scum among us either chose not to use that information NP2 or was unable to use it. As far as I can tell, the latter requires you to believe Ragnar is scum and Casey is telling the truth (fair enough if you do, I guess), and the former requires you to believe that scum would actively choose not to put us in MYLO this DP despite the obvious opportunity to do so.

I don't really know Earth/Shining's level of acumen, having never played with him before, but if he is scum then he's on a team with other people who could have told him what to tell you regarding my night action and helped him to craft a fake claim. Maybe he's not up to the task of figuring it out himself as you seem to be implying (I personally don't know the guy), but if he had a competent scum team/partner he wouldn't need to.

Part of what I’m telling you is that, based on my direct experience with him in this game, I don’t think he’s pulling something like this off. I’ve been scum with him in several games before and I just don’t buy it here. I’ve seen people argue these kinds of big brain tactics were being used by scum only for their FoS to land on the wrong target too many times.

Assuming that’s true, you would also have to believe that the scum among us either chose not to use that information NP2 or was unable to use it. As far as I can tell, the latter requires you to believe Ragnar is scum and Casey is telling the truth (fair enough if you do, I guess), and the former requires you to believe that scum would actively choose not to put us in MYLO this DP despite the obvious opportunity to do so.

Thinking about Casey from a 'Casey is scum perspective', why would she claim to be roleblocked if she was scum? Her claim seems crafted, if it is a fake claim, to explain away rolebocking visits as also having an additional fake 'protection' utility that would always appear to be real because scum would just NK someone else. Why claim she was roleblocked, which just raises additional suspicions? Why not just claim to be vanilla or something if you were going to do that?

Thinking about Casey from a 'Casey is scum perspective', why would she claim to be roleblocked if she was scum? Her claim seems crafted, if it is a fake claim, to explain away rolebocking visits as also having an additional fake 'protection' utility that would always appear to be real because scum would just NK someone else. Why claim she was roleblocked, which just raises additional suspicions? Why not just claim to be vanilla or something if you were going to do that?

Casey claiming they’ve been RB’d suggests the existence of a scum RB, which draws attention away from their own RB claim. If anything, it places suspicions elsewhere, not on Casey. A Vanilla claim would necessarily stand out here, and innocuous fake claims in general aren’t likely to fly, especially at this stage. Scum had to take chances. The risks are there whether you’re talking about Earth or Casey, but at least Earth has some corroboration of what he did and to whom.

Even if you think my tracker role is a soft CC, my PGO isn't and Mharman's role directly confirms mine.