Suikoden Mafia

Scum Team/TP:

Town:

Hidden Hinge Events:

So to 'rebalance' this swingy game in the event that certain events happened roles would change and altar. There were three such events:

Teo McDohl dying - since this would happen if they were triggered with the recruit it would make the surviving scum (Tir) much stronger to compensate, as happened in the game when the Souleater Rune fed on his father's death. It would also act as built-in anticlaim, because if scum could figure out who Teo was they could secure a huge buff by NKing him. This would also cause Sonya to lose her popular and gain a 1x Gladiator (choose a player in the DP - you and your target are now the only possible lynch targets for this DP) to reflect her dark, vengeful turn after Teo's death.

The recruit going off: This would remove Leon's hated role, removing the handicap on the town cop who would now have two targets to find instead of one (Mathiu was ascetic and so immune to cop investigations).

The third was Yuber's kill going off, which would secure him extra usages. Yuber was a counterbalance on town, as he would basically be hunting for town power roles to take out anonymously and untraceably throughout the game as scum likely wouldn't claim Tir. The balances to this were the scum roleblock that persisted through the DP, Kasim's day/night bodyguard, and especially Barbarossa's permanent commuter role.

Barbarossa's card didn't upload completely:

GGs super close game.

Also scum were very confused about who to recruit while I thought it was quite simple because most wikis have a list of the 107 Stars of Destiny, who are all recruitable characters. However, one of the scum team have informed me that they were afraid to use it because they were so invested in Mikal's lore mastery that they bought his bullshit about this being a complicated issue that you couldn't understand unless you played the game. So for so frazzling the scum team I think he and Pie might deserve joint MVPs lol.

Also scum were very confused about who to recruit while I thought it was quite simple because most wikis have a list of the 107 Stars of Destiny, who are all recruitable characters. 

We don't have inside information or know anything about this retarded ass theme, dont act like us knowing who to recruit was obvious when half the players were either unrecruitable, and one could have even killed us upon recruiting him.

People immune to recruits:

Whiteflame

Mikal

Pie is immune to magic

RT (who would have killed us)

Airmax

5/ 13 players were unrecruitable. NP1 we had no way of knowing who was and wasn't recruitable, so it wasn't worth a risk at this point objectively to recruit someone especially considering we would have had to give up our janitor which was the only insurance we had for a claim.

Now given what we do know, heres the rest of the players and the consequences of recruiting them:

Vader- who was CC'ed by me (which was a real town doc at one point) and they were discussing lynching both of us anyway so this was a detrimental recruit

Wylted- Who would have been a mislynch target based

Wryly- Who would have been lynched when she claimed beloved since thats usually SOP

Magic- Well he got vigged so nothing we could do there

So looking at this game I was cooked either way. I would have need 4 mislynches and all the unrecruitables were in the town block. I gave your game more credit than it was actually due.

they were so invested in Mikal's lore mastery that they bought his bullshit about this being a complicated issue

False af. I commented multiple times that mikal was probably wrong in much of his analysis, both in game and the discord and can take screenshots to prove this. Why are you lying? you salty because you made bad modding decisions? Don't lie because of it lol.

So for so frazzling the scum team I think he and Pie might deserver joint MVPs lol.

your a retard.

Anyways got multiple screenshots to prove that I wasn't a bit worried about mikals lore lord, also mentioned it in thread multiple times. Game had bad balance and rev is salty that I didn't want to try to make 4 mislynches happen with the town block that we had. It was impossible. But don't make up lies.

Yes there actually was three town protective roles. You would have probably lynched a couple of us for that at some point and would have been right for the wrong reasons.

Also I did tell thoth multiple times I didn't like the leprechaun claim. I was too lazy to help him find another claim though and he was really confident about it. I didn't know he was going to claim it the way he did, and when he equated his character to liking gold and therefor being a leprechaun, that was probably the worst way to sell it. But he seemed really attached to the claim, so I just let him do him. Should have drew a harder line in the sand on that, I knew that role would be seen as scummy. Most roles in this game were pretty basic, regular roles, maybe absent the brainwash and poisoner, I knew leprechaun would stand out like a sore thumb. Told thoth the same. Oh well.

I think this game would have been much better if there was no recruit mechanic. Having to guess who I can and cant recruit and that decision and how it could have backfired really impacted how short this game was. Just give us three mafia to start, and we probably could have won this pretty easily. Town was pretty bad. Mikal gave us so much information to work with by trying to flex how smart he was about the theme. We had guessed a lot of stuff including RT was Teo. IF we found teo we got extra uses of our role. So mikal pushing him for more information and RT being willing to give it was a really bad town move in general. I had also guessed that wryly was some sort of loved role, though my guess was beloved princess. Mikal had said his character had neg util so I did mention he could have a jailkeeper or redirect. Pie was figured out from POE. We had so much information that was completely unnececary for us to have because mikal kept trying to bully people into claiming. Mikal was definitely not MVP this game lol

they were so invested in Mikal's lore mastery that they bought his bullshit about this being a complicated issue

False af. I commented multiple times that mikal was probably wrong in much of his analysis, both in game and the discord and can take screenshots to prove this. Why are you lying? you salty because you made bad modding decisions? Don't lie because of it lol.

This is what Thoth told me in a separate PM. Hence 'one of the scum team'. Take it up with him, but he expressed reticence about which characters he could have recruited, and I mentioned the list of Stars of Destiny he could have used. He then said that he didn't think that would have been reliable because of what Mikal said, and I did recall you suggesting that you weren't sure who was recruitable either.

This is what Thoth told me in a separate PM. Hence 'one of the scum team'. Take it up with him, but he expressed reticence about which characters he could have recruited, and I mentioned the list of Stars of Destiny he could have used. He then said that he didn't think that would have been reliable because of what Mikal said, and I did recall you suggesting that you weren't sure who was recruitable either.

I dont ever remember you giving us a list and telling us that we couldn't recruit people from a list. Maybe you should have made that more obvious. Or if your gonna do that why even make it so certain people can and cant be recruited anyway? Just a weird

mechanic that over complicated things for no reason.

I hope y'all will enjoy the story behind my Lepant claim.

For fake-claim help, Rex initially allowed us true answers to three questions about whether or not a character we named was in the game. A couple hours after DP1 started, Rex offered to let us trade our questions for a solid fake-claim, which, about eight hours after that, Luna and I agreed to do, and Rex gave us Lepant. I was miffed because I also expected a role guaranteed not to be in the game along with justification, but batteries not included is better than nothing.

In the early morning of 27 September, the wee hours being when I tend to have my smartest and dumbest ideas, I thought of claiming a role that could move the night-kill, and I figured that the best way to "prove" it was by killing Shining and claiming that I moved the kill from Mikal to Shining, but I was not sure of the details or how to justify it for Lepant. Why not just recruit someone? Because Mikal said that we couldn't know who was recruitable unless we played the game, and I bought it hook, like, and sinker. I don't think it crossed my mind that Mikal could be lying. If it did, then it never crossed my mind again.

On 28 September, I went to a party (did I not seem like the party type to you?) where I played, among other games, Werewolf (I suppose it's more believable if it's a party where people play Werewolf), which is different from forum Mafia but in the same family. At least one of the Werewolf games had a role called Leprechaun which sees who the wolves chose to kill and can move it to the left or right. Yes, as overpowered as people were calling my role, I was claiming a weakened variant, although I've only seen Leprechaun in open-role games where wolves can somewhat play around it since they know it exists, and which are balanced with the Leprechaun in mind. I don't recall whether or not the Leprechaun could move the kill off of themselves, but I think they could. When I noticed that Lepant and Leprechaun had the same first syllable, I chuckled. Hey, that could be a justification, right?

My first draft of the NK-redirection claim was that I could see the night-kill target and move it anywhere, but that sounded too powerful and too much like an excuse for never being NKed. "Could Leprechaun work?", I asked myself. Maybe, but only if a plausible NK target and a strong scumread were number neighbors. My favorite pair was Mikal and Shining, but Mikal and Pie was a somewhat close second. When I checked the DP1 player list, I found that, all according to keikaku, Mikal was between Pie and Shining. Fortuna had seen my unfathomable claim, and she had smiled upon me with a rainbow and a pot of gold. Unrestricted Leprechaun still seemed overpowered for a setup not designed to accommodate it, especially since it semi-CC'd even the 1x Doctor we scrubbed, let alone full Doctor, so I sprinkled on that I could only move the kill between three adjacent players of my choice. The final touch was Ascetic, lest someone have evidence that I was Ascetic and accuse me of leaving it out with no explanation. Rex was right that it would have been better to omit Ascetic and let town speculate about why their abilities failed, except that I didn't realize that someone whose ability failed due to Ascetic would get a result that would lead them to think their ability failed for some other reason. My inconsistencies about how Ascetic worked were the result of real confusion.

Ascetic Triple-Crown Leprechaun. I knew, like Luna said, that it would stick out like a sore thumb, so, in hopes that it would loop back around to being believable, I gave Leprechaun a justification so outrageous that people would be reluctant to claim it even if it were real. I hope Rex didn't feel insulted that anyone believed for one second that he made someone a Leprechaun because their name started with Lep. I mean, that's the kind of bullshit I would do. For Ascetic, one of the first things I found when researching Lepant is that he wanted to stay out of the war, which fit well enough to balance out the absurdity of the Leprechaun justification. I was afraid that I misunderstood why Lepant isolated himself or that Mikal would notice this fact is very easy to find on wikis, but not once was I afraid that Ascetic would get counter-claimed.

Again, I consider Mikal the MVP because I only tried my Leprechaun gambit in hopes that it would buy me a day to learn more about who I could recruit. I made my other mistakes because I believed Mikal when he said that I couldn't find recruitment targets with Google. That said, I certainly was not faced with a dichotomy of either recruit or release the Leprechaun. Going all-in on a bizarre fake-claim might have been reckless, but I was laughing too hard at the coincidences behind it to stop myself, and I can't say that I've learned my lesson enough to never again do something similar. Might I quote from Rudyard Kipling's "If":

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breathe a word about your loss;

[I skipped the lines from here until the last]

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,

And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

I admire the irony of Pie pushing me as scum because my role supposedly made me unkillable.

I totally get why Kohai thought Tir was Town based on his PM.

Damn GGs

For a second I thought we had lost

Also scum were very confused about who to recruit while I thought it was quite simple because most wikis have a list of the 107 Stars of Destiny, who are all recruitable characters. However, one of the scum team have informed me that they were afraid to use it because they were so invested in Mikal's lore mastery that they bought his bullshit about this being a complicated issue that you couldn't understand unless you played the game. So for so frazzling the scum team I think he and Pie might deserve joint MVPs lol.

I did extensive reading and saw this as well. But I agree that it was a tough pick NP1 because we all kept our mouth shut DP1. I think the only outted person was Max with the Miller and he wasn’t recruitable.

We don't have inside information or know anything about this retarded ass theme, dont act like us knowing who to recruit was obvious when half the players were either unrecruitable, and one could have even killed us upon recruiting him. 

People immune to recruits: 

Whiteflame

Mikal

Pie is immune to magic

RT (who would have killed us)

Airmax

Here’s the thing though, by the end of DP1, it was confirmed Max was immune and Kohai/Mikal had heavily softer they were immune as well. I picked up on it pretty fast. That’s 3/4 townies (WF was dead by then)

5/ 13 players were unrecruitable. NP1 we had no way of knowing who was and wasn't recruitable, so it wasn't worth a risk at this point objectively to recruit someone especially considering we would have had to give up our janitor which was the only insurance we had for a claim.

Now given what we do know, heres the rest of the players and the consequences of recruiting them:

Vader- who was CC'ed by me (which was a real town doc at one point) and they were discussing lynching both of us anyway so this was a detrimental recruit

Wylted- Who would have been a mislynch target based

Wryly- Who would have been lynched when she claimed beloved since thats usually SOP

Magic- Well he got vigged so nothing we could do there

Ya your draw was pretty low. But killing Shining was a mistake imo

So looking at this game I was cooked either way. I would have need 4 mislynches and all the unrecruitables were in the town block. I gave your game more credit than it was actually due.

Just the way the game turned out. If WF hadn’t vigged Mharman, you guys probably would’ve been fine. Blessing in disguise by town. You also got unlucky by the role assignments and behaviors of specific players, which the mod can’t do much about tbh (re Wryly/Wylted)

Here’s the thing though, by the end of DP1, it was confirmed Max was immune and Kohai/Mikal had heavily softer they were immune as well. I picked up on it pretty fast. That’s 3/4 townies (WF was dead by then)

The plan was to use the recruit np2 when we had more info on who to use it, but thoth was the recruiter and you saw what happened with that. We simply did not have enough information to risk it np1.

Ya your draw was pretty low. But killing Shining was a mistake imo

Had to use it on someone who hadn't hinted anything of their role so it couldn't be used against us later or lock anyone is. Ultra was also an option, but I think shining being one of the generals was really good because it was guaranteed they would be in the game. The problem was there was actually three fvcking protective roles, how the hell could I have predicted that? No matter what that would have been a problem down the line I think.

Just the way the game turned out. If WF hadn’t vigged Mharman, you guys probably would’ve been fine. Blessing in disguise by town. You also got unlucky by the role assignments and behaviors of specific players, which the mod can’t do much about tbh (re Wryly/Wylted)

I wasn't going to blame the mod for shit, I knew this was a swingy game from the get go, it just swung in the direction of town this time around. I am only getting pissed at rex because he is acting like mikal did something amazing here, when in actuality most of what he did was pretty negative for town, and I had not only called it out multiple times that mikal didn't actually know what he was doing most of the time, rex said he was giving mikal mvp for trolling us lol. Simply not the case. I can post multiple screenshots. I never thought mikal was a threat, and I was calling him out for every fuck up that helped us. Like when he started pressuring you lmao I was like this is classic mikal

Not going to defend my decision to Strengthen Luna (got subbed in and just made a gut decision on it), but that also ended up being a blessing in disguise. It absolutely confirmed Mikal to me and gave some reason for town to believe what I did during the night. Most importantly, and this is definitely something I couldn’t predict, it told me scum hadn’t recruited during the night. If Mikal had survived and there was no NK, I absolutely would have believed someone had been recruited.

Anyway, yeah, kinda put scum in a difficult position with so much anti-recruitment on the table. Made town paranoid about what they’d do, but the NK was much more sure-fire, so I understand why they went that way NP1. Leprechaun was crazy, but it’s nice to see the manifesto of how it happened.

Who would have been lynched when she claimed beloved since thats usually SOP

It is? Oops lol. I thought that was only Miller Gravedigger and PGO.

I thought Mikal was pushing too hard for information from people from the getgo and even scumread him for it for all of DP1, so I wasn't gonna reveal more than I thought I had to.

It is? Oops lol. I thought that was only Miller Gravedigger and PGO.

It's not, you were Loved (Popular) not Beloved.

I think Luna is mostly pissed about my tongue-in-cheek comment about giving Mikal MVP but I do want to respond to some of the balance criticisms.

To defend the antirecruit: it was mostly nullified in DP1. The scum team originally wanted to recruit Mikal but picked up on him softing that he was unrecruitable. The game was structured in such a way that one of the unrecruitable players would have to out themselves by broaching the topic of recruitment - in this game, that was Mikal. Then Airmax flat-out outed themselves as unrecruitable. Then Kohai laid down enough info over the DP that scum were able to correctly guess his character, which they would never recruit because him dying helped them immensely. Whiteflame 1.0 also outed himself DP1. The only remaining wildcard at this point was Pie, so even if scum randomly recruited among the remaining pool of players NP1 (Pie, Wryly, Wylted, Shining, Whiteflame 2.0, Vader) they had an 83% chance of hitting a recruitable player. By the end of DP2, with Pie claiming, that chance rose to 100%. This is what I meant when I said in the last game's endgame that anticlaim would be built into the structure of the game. I actually do not fault them for foregoing the recruit NP1, I probably would have done the same. But making that decision necessitated that they play DP2 as cautiously as possible and to above all else avoid Thoth getting lynched. They did the exact opposite of that.

For the three protective roles, the 1x Doc by itself should have forewarned you of that. Scum knew that Wylted wasn't lying about his Poisoner role because they knew that he was town. They had WF's TP vig flip. They knew that they had 1x, potentially 2x strongman shots. Shining's card makes no mention of protecting against poison or dayvig shots, something that both Whiteflame and Wylted had mentioned already at that point. The game would be laughably unbalanced with just a 1x Doc. To counterclaim Supa was a ballsy but shortsighted move, because it meant as soon as he died you would be on the chopping block.

i was bullshtting a lot to what I was saying to try and confuse people.

I did know barbosa was aesetic off the stat of the game from how his rune worker and I thought Luna was mafia dp1 which is why I redirected him to me. Figured If he tried to recruit, it would have failed on me. Thought he was barbosa when the action failed

it’s def unfortunate they got the doc claim. Because they both would have died off a cc either way.

on god i was hoping scum was just lazy and didn’t bother seeing who was in the stars of destiny. It’s pretty easy to find but was hoping by saying its hard it threw them a bit.

i think me being able to narrow down the non recruits def did help. Cus it’s easy to sell they aren’t but it was really obvious to me that barbosa windy Sanchez and teo were non recruitable.

I had Sonya and beloved or popular

had 0 idea what teo was.

but the town block would have ultimately let us get the win

just by Poe of who could be recruited.

mad pros to super. His reaction and how pissed he was made me flip from him to Luna.

i also thought if Thoth just claimed leprechaun instead of aesthetic it would have made it sell more. Leprechaun made perfect sense for lepant.

Man, you were so adamant on that theme split. I still don't know what the actual split was, but I can't tell you how frustrating it was to inherit a town character who didn't fit what you thought it was.

I think it was that split. He just interpreted Joshua as empire. I mentioned he was. It was just an odd claim from the rest.

Tbf I like the counter balance of the recruit being you could only recruit from the stars lf

destiny. Made sense lore wise and set up a pool of who you can pick from. Any of the non recruitable people could have janitored or og scum asa fake claim. Game def could be swingy but like the choice to balance the recruit by not allowing it to hit everyone and just reset all reads.

appreicate the attention he put into the pictures and characters too. Had a blast with it.