K-Pop Demon Hunters Mafia Endgame

Started by Mag1cman

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#1 •••

TOWN WINS!

MVP: Whiteflame


TEAMS


Mafia:


RexFavilla - Jinu, Doomed Roleblocker


You are Jinu, a human who became a demon after he died in shame 400 years ago. For most of the film, you are the main foil to the protagonists, stealing fans (and the Honmoon) away from Huntr/x with your band, the Saja Boys.


You are a Doomed Roleblocker. Once per night, you may choose a player and nullify their night action. However, this will be one night; you are doomed to die at the start of DP2. You win with the Mafia.


Pie - Gwi-Ma, Silencer


You are Gwi-Ma, king of the demons. In your glory days, you feasted on human souls daily. Now, those pesky musicians keep you sealed. There is one power you have over them (specifically, Rumi): Shame. The more Rumi’s shame in her half-demon heritage controls her, the weaker her voice gets.


You are a Silencer. Once per night, you may choose a player. They will be unable to talk in the following day phase; however, they will be allowed to submit a single vote to the mod. The silencing will be announced to the town. You win with the Mafia.


Fake Claim: Bobby, Vanilla


You are Bobby. Huntr/x’s manager, unaware that your trio of clients are demon hunters.


You are a Vanilla. You have no abilities. You win with the Town.


Town:


Kohai - Healer Han, Doctor


You are Healer Han, an eccentric doctor who attempts to heal Rumi’s voice with what can generously be called a placebo. You were unsuccessful, but apparently, you have a good reputation with Zoey.

You are a Doctor. Once per night, you may select a player and make them immune to lethal night actions for that night. You win with the Town.


Whiteflame - Rumi, Cop


You are Rumi, the main character and demon hunter. You have a secret: you’re half demon. However, your secret allows you to establish regular contact with Jinu, and you learn his past as well. Through him, you uncover the truth about the demons, their nature, and their plans- and learn to understand yourself better as well.


You are a Cop. Once per night, you may select a player and learn whether they are town or mafia. You win with the Town.


Thoth - Mira, Vanilla


You are Mira. Huntr/x member, demon hunter, and short-fused friend of Rumi.


You are a Vanilla. You have no abilities. You win with the Town.


Vader - Zoey, Vanilla


You are Zoey. Huntr/x member, demon hunter, and bubbly friend of Rumi.


You are a Vanilla. You have no abilities. You win with the Town.


Lunatic - Celine, Vanilla


You are Celine. Rumi’s adoptive mother, and retired demon hunter from the disbanded Sunlight Sisters.


You are a Vanilla. You have no abilities. You win with the town.


BEHIND THE SETUP


Creation:


I knew it was going to be a 7-player game, and that's tricky. I like to design my setups so that Town can survive as many mislynches as there are mafiosos, and 7 is an odd point in my sequence (5 players, 1 mafioso; 9, 2; 13, 3; 17, 4;...). Normally, when I'm halfway between numbers in a sequence, I include a third party. But here, I didn't like how that leaves only a single mafioso- not as fun, plus the game could end way too quickly. So I looked for other ways to make my setup work.


I had an idea ready, but it was a little complex for my liking. So I turned to a new concept: 5v2, Doomed Mafioso. With this concept, the mafioso had a teammate, and Town could survive as many mislynches as there are mafiosos. Now it wasn't perfect- the game could still be over on day one. But there's a variety of plays Mafia could use to ensure the non-doomed mafioso could survive DP1.


One particular play would be to force a claim out of someone, then have the Doomed Mafioso sac CC. This would result in a 3v1 MYLO the next day, essentially forcing a VTNL for a 2v1 LYLO. To throw Town a bone if this ever happened, I gave them a doctor. It wasn't a whole lot, though.


So I decided I wanted an investigative ability to help Town and to give the doctor something more to protect. I ended up going with a Cop to keep it simple. However, Cops are strong. So I needed something to give Mafia to counter. I felt Godfather wasn't the right choice- for a game balanced on the idea that one mafioso can go the distance; Godfather is a bit much if the cop targets it. In addition, the Godfather has little play in a situation where a townie is targeted by the Cop, and that can be pretty bad in a LYLO/MYLO situation. So I went with a silencer, figuring that it would be good to silence results. Lastly, I slapped a Roleblocker on the Doomed Mafioso to further counter the Cop/Doctor bloc.


Results:

The Cop is incredibly strong in LYLO/MYLO. While there was plenty of counterplay against it NP1, the only way to stop it NP2, would be to kill it at some point, while dealing with the Doctor. When it's just Silencer vs Cop, there's not much the Silencer can do. This ultimately decided the game.


The Silencer itself is strange. While it can stop the reveal of any Cop results, it effectively town confirms the silenced player. Which is a problem the Cop already posed.


Pie argued the setup was townsided, saying that the setup demanded him to be perfect, which was "an insane ask." I apologized to him for the setup; I do think he's right. I think Cop vs Silencer and Roleblocker was the wrong dynamic.


SUMMARY


DP1, the inactivity was an immediate theme. Unlike other games, the inactivity hurt the mafia team. With little chance to secure a mislynch, the mafia team got no value out of that DP; they couldn't even have Rex sac CC someone, or secure any mislynch.


Whiteflame had all the theme knowledge, and Lunatic had some great setup analysis. I do think for someone with as much theme knowledge as Whiteflame, choosing male/female split for a soft wasn't the best choice, as it basically outed Kohai when he inevitably had to explain that he didn't wanna go with male/female. That being said, Kohai didn't help his case, and outed a few more details. To be fair to Kohai, it was a tough situation. Whiteflame's behavioral reads were solid here, as was Thoth's. Thoth did TMI a bit, essentially exposing that he and Lunatic had roles that connected in some way. Lunatic's soft was a good bait, but Thoth kinda hurt him here, as it makes both roles easier for Mafia to decipher. Whiteflame's reads were good; Thoth's were decent.


NP1, Pie saw right through Lunatic's bait and knew he was Vanilla (Thoth's TMI had no impact there). He figured out what Kohai was, and selected Rex to kill him. He also sent Rex to roleblock Whiteflame, and chose to silence Vader. This was the perfect play. If roleblock Kohai + try to kill cop w/ silencer as backup, then he'd have to call the Cop correctly (bc he'd have nothing to stop cop+doc NP2), which was not obvious at the time. Kohai did well to protect Whiteflame, but scum had the answer.


DP2, I have no idea how Pie got away with getting Vader mislynched. He was essentially town confirmed. If someone had just asked if a Silencer could self-target, they would've known that. Inactivity still played a role, and it would've hurt Mafia again if it weren't for the egregious lynch of Vader. Thoth made a bad play, fakeclaiming soldier (especially when he had TMI'd his Vanilla earlier); I think if the game were more active, he would've been mislynched for it. Or if Pie had spotted the DP1 TMI at any point.


Whiteflame was wise to hide that he was roleblocked NP1. He had decent reads; this time Thoth had the better reads.


NP2, Pie took Thoth's bait, allowing him to get away with his play. It was the one mistake of Pie's this game. He should've considered Thoth's DP1 TMI, plus Soldier is even more OP than Cop in this setup. If he had called this correctly, he would've won the game. He was almost perfect. Yes, the setup was townsided, but every mistake is worth noting for the future.


All Whiteflame had to do was Cop either player; it didn't really matter. I would've minmaxed and targeted Pie to give him less wiggle room, but he felt he was minmaxing by targeting Lunatic. Neither option was bad, so it's debatable which was better.


DP3, Pie was pretty much screwed by the Cop result, but he did okay trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat. He could've tried to fight a little harder, but eh. Whiteflame did good shooting down Pie's arguments. Lunatic made the right call, although I'm surprised he thought it was close between the two. He was wise to take the time to think, though.

Edit comment

I still don’t know what to type!

#2 •••
--> @ILikePie5, @Kohai, @Lunatic, @RexFavilla, @Thoth, @Vader, @whiteflame

endgame

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I still don’t know what to type!

#3 •••

Good game all. At least I did something right and protected the cop

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"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

#4 •••
--> @ILikePie5, @Kohai, @Lunatic, @Mag1cman

It was a good call, though I definitely would have avoided saying anything about your character name giving your role away. That made it a bit too obvious and I wasn't even seeking that information. Really would have believed you could be Bobby or one of the animal characters in this setup.


I do think Pie has a point that this was pretty town-sided, though the game was bound to be slanted one way or the other, kind of hard to avoid there being some imbalance. I thought he did a pretty good job regardless, didn't have him pegged until the moment NP2 started.


Was a little frustrated coming off of the back-and-forth with Luna, though honestly, by the end of it, he had me pretty convinced he was town. I just needed confirmation thereof, figured since Pie was almost certainly scum that I'd be best off ensuring that Luna was town rather than having a heads-up over my sudden decision to target Pie and get a scum result at the exact right time.


Bit of a rocky return to mafia, but I still appreciate the setup and bold decision with the Doomed RB Mharman, so thanks for designing the game and for the extensive discussion of it. Honestly wouldn't have thought to ask if a Silencer could self-target but I should.

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#5 •••

Oh, and for the fake claim: I decided the theme after the setup was complete, and gave a fake claim since the movie doesn't have many characters.


An older draft had Mira as the fake claim and Bobby as vanilla town. I decided to swap the two to play mind games with town, figuring they'd be used to Mafia not having such "weak" fake claims. Pie made the exact argument I figured Mafia would make, and from Town's perspective, it would've been 50/50 once they considered the point.

Edit post

I still don’t know what to type!

#6 •••

So I was right to townread whiteflame early on. Around the end of DP2, I started questioning my townread on him a little, and by DP3 I was almost ready to swap my townread to Pie because I didn't believe that scum would have blocked anyone other than Kohai to guarantee a kill. I don't think I would have figured out on day 1 that whiteflame was Cop.


After I died, I read around and figured that Gwi-Ma was a reasonable fit for Silencer, what with his hypnosis. I'm surprised that nobody brought that up, but I had plenty of time to find that out while alive and did not.


I figured that scum would suspect the Soldier claim of being a transparent attempt to bait the night kill, and I also figured that they would probably kill me anyway, just in case. My fear was that I would live to day 3 and not be around to warn the remaining townie not to vote themselves and demand that scum quickhammer, although I suppose that the last scum would not quickhammer if they did not believe my claim and probably would have killed me beforehand if they did. That role creates all sorts of dynamics at final three that I really did not want to deal with.


Thoth made a bad play, fakeclaiming soldier (especially when he had TMI'd his Vanilla earlier); I think if the game were more active, he would've been mislynched for it. Or if Pie had spotted the DP1 TMI at any point.

I knew that I could be pressured for TMI'ing Vanilla, and I was going to respond that I thought Lunatic might be Vanilla because (1) I have seen people say that Vanilla is their favorite role and (2) I have only ever seen Soldier in small setups. My concern would have been that whiteflame would find out that Soldier is a Werewolf role called Parity Hunter and realize where I got the idea.

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Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.

#7 •••

I definitely was swayed by some of pies thematic arguments as well as the supa silencing point. It almost convinced me. At the end of the day day I bought into wifom of Whiteflame as scum not wanting to risk leaving me alive in a lylo situation. I was pressuring him hard dp2, leaving me alive was a huge risk, not sure it’s one he would take. He could have left Thoth alive who was hard sussing pie dp2. Like I said it could have been a big brain manipulation tactic but I think of Whiteflame as a conservative safe player, I just didn’t see him risking it.

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In loving Memory of Lannan and Ajab, fallen debaters.

#8 •••

That mislynch on Vader was dirty af

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"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

#9 •••
--> @Kohai
That mislynch on Vader was dirty af

Especially since I was sussing whiteflame for it more than I was sussing Pie.

Edit post

Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.

#10 •••

This endgame is getting surprisingly few posts, especially given that the game was reasonably active.

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Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.

#11 •••
--> @Thoth
Especially since I was sussing whiteflame for it more than I was sussing Pie.


I kinda get that. It looked like we were on the verge of either NLing or getting Vader, who was a bit of a black box to me at the time. I was buying at least a little into Pie's narrative that it could be either you or Vader, which was obviously a mistake.

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#12 •••

This was bad for me cause the only DP I got was the one I hate the most and a bunch of real life shit happened, but it was fun to watch. Good on Luna for figuring it out.

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#13 •••

I 100% thought Whiteflame was scum the way that mislynch happened. I was so convinced that it was Jinu Rumi as a scum team especially after Thoth’s flip. Guess I was wrong but that mislynch was so fucking stupid

Edit post

Kick logic to the curb and do the impossible!

#14 •••
--> @Vader

Yeah, I don't blame you for either sussing me for it (wasn't for the lynch, but kinda got dragged along with it). That being said, while the Jinu-Rumi pairing would have made sense, you'd have to believe that Rumi is a Silencer, and I can't see it. Gwi-Ma made a lot more sense with that role.

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#15 •••
--> @whiteflame

I had a feeling about it based on the events in the movie and it being a weird justification and based on my character being a vanilla. But yeah Gwi-Ma made sense as well and I also just didn’t think theme was that obvious + the blatant bad mislynch

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Kick logic to the curb and do the impossible!