Amber Endgame

Lunatic wrote:

Sorry about your uncle :/

appreciate it

I remember bouncing around a lot and you told me to stop bouncing around votes because it looked scummy

Real talk, angleshooting is unfun for the game and Mikal is the biggest doer of it. Mikal also has a forceful personality which is why sometimes you just have to tell him to shut the fuck up and play the game.

At the same time tho he didn't even angleshoot that much this game except for the "I'm gonna get myself modkilled" bit (which he has done multiple times before).

The anon rule is not just unenforceable, it's also hard to follow in the first place. You saw in my discord notes I had 9/12 players pinned on DP1, and I haven't played with most of these players in a year. I almost posted from my own account multiple times, and would have if the threads weren't locked. I typed out player real names just because it came naturally to me, I'm not even sure if I caught all those instances or maybe I posted some and just didn't notice. I 100% understand that people were calling each other by their real names at the end of the game cause the discussion was getting heated. The difference between this and angleshooting is that saying real names takes no effort, angleshooting does.

It's the same difference between speculating on replacements and using PM times. When Thoth got replaced I can't not think about it. I have to vote him, and when people ask me why I have to answer. Using PM times takes active effort.

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

Helz wrote:

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

As Bullish said, Mikal has a history of doing this as either affiliation. It’s NAI for him, and here he was wrong anyways with Oberon. It’s not like it’s an infallible strategy. But would factoring in people’s posting schedules and knowledge of what they do irl count as angle shooting?

Like we know Luna works the night shift and if someone posted from Gerard during the day when he would be asleep, would that count as angle shooting? I don’t think cause you’re asking everyone to ignore what they know about players

I’ve always been of the opinion that angle shooting if used should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I’ve seen it be wrong as much as I’ve seen it be right. There should always be external reasons to lynch someone though if those reasons are available. Detectives don’t usually put someone away for one thing, unless it’s video evidence of a crime, usually there is loads of evidence to take into account before passing the guilty sentence.

ILikePie5 wrote:

Helz wrote:

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

As Bullish said, Mikal has a history of doing this as either affiliation. It’s NAI for him, and here he was wrong anyways with Oberon. It’s not like it’s an infallible strategy. But would factoring in people’s posting schedules and knowledge of what they do irl count as angle shooting?

Like we know Luna works the night shift and if someone posted from Gerard during the day when he would be asleep, would that count as angle shooting? I don’t think cause you’re asking everyone to ignore what they know about players

You are utterly missing the point here. It does not matter if them doing that was AI or not. Its that its bullshit and should never happen in the first place. This is the type of behavior that is going to make mafia players not want to come to this community and we should not excuse it.

Lunatic wrote:

I’ve always been of the opinion that angle shooting if used should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I’ve seen it be wrong as much as I’ve seen it be right. There should always be external reasons to lynch someone though if those reasons are available. Detectives don’t usually put someone away for one thing, unless it’s video evidence of a crime, usually there is loads of evidence to take into account before passing the guilty sentence.

And I have always been of the opinion that angle shooting is a flat rule break.

That if you are breaking the walls of what a game is including factors like "Well outside of this game this player said X" and "I think the host would give roles in X order with X timeline so lets break the game with that" its just shitting on the game. We will never get real mafia players in this community if this kind of behavior is excused.

Not saying we should punish. But lets please stop acting like its normal. Its really not.

Helz wrote:

Lunatic wrote:

I’ve always been of the opinion that angle shooting if used should be taken with a massive grain of salt. I’ve seen it be wrong as much as I’ve seen it be right. There should always be external reasons to lynch someone though if those reasons are available. Detectives don’t usually put someone away for one thing, unless it’s video evidence of a crime, usually there is loads of evidence to take into account before passing the guilty sentence.

And I have always been of the opinion that angle shooting is a flat rule break

That is fundamentally just a very weird take. But it probobly just stems from where you learned the game so I guess it makes sense.

That if you are breaking the walls of what a game is including factors like "Well outside of this game this player said X" and "I think the host would give roles in X order with X timeline so lets break the game with that" its just shitting on the game. We will never get real mafia players in this community if this kind of behavior is excused

I disagree. I think it should always be taken with a grain of salt and not be the sole reason to lynch someone, obviously, but to use the example with rex from last game again, you were wondering why I town read him so much, I knew you were hesitant to town read him. While I kind of town read his behavior in the mason thread (he wasn't crazy active in there) most of the reason I kept writing him off as town confirmed was because mikal had added him in after the initial player pool was already added. Most of the time scums get their scum pms figured out first so they can start strategizing and planning 24 hours in advance. I didn't think mikal would shake up the entire balance of the game to add in one person. I was right in the end about Rex. While it could have just been luck or happenstance, I don't think it was. But if I had noticed significantly scummy behavior from him to reduce that, I would probably dis-regard it, but otherwise its hard not to.

Not saying we should punish. But lets please stop acting like its normal. Its really not.

Normal I guess relative to the sites you hail from. Also its not like its overtly used here either. Mikal uses it more than most players, he always has, but most of the time people don't really regard those takes from him very highly. I will consider some OGI if its compelling enough, but usually it isn't in most cases. But I always get annoyed when people throw a fit about someone using it. Thats what I did with mikals angleshooting read on Oberon lol.

Helz wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

Helz wrote:

My personal opinion (and I have no problem being the asshole here)

We should get off Mag and Mika’s. Who did what is just unhealthy.

We should acknowledge the pattern-

Very clear rules were set and a substantial amount of the player base did ignore them regarding anon.

The host did muddy the water saying they would allow some amount of the rule break

The rules were at some point reenforced and again ignored. Twice this problem happened this game alone

There is a substantial pattern of angle shooting in this community prior to and including this game. Let’s not bullshit like this is an isolated issue or split hairs about how it happened

After it happening we have people excusing and justifying problems. Whatever as far as not punishing people and such but fuck man. The level of angleshooting Oog bullshit in this community seriously sucks. Let’s grow the balls to own that and move on

As Bullish said, Mikal has a history of doing this as either affiliation. It’s NAI for him, and here he was wrong anyways with Oberon. It’s not like it’s an infallible strategy. But would factoring in people’s posting schedules and knowledge of what they do irl count as angle shooting?

Like we know Luna works the night shift and if someone posted from Gerard during the day when he would be asleep, would that count as angle shooting? I don’t think cause you’re asking everyone to ignore what they know about players

You are utterly missing the point here. It does not matter if them doing that was AI or not. Its that its bullshit and should never happen in the first place. This is the type of behavior that is going to make mafia players not want to come to this community and we should not excuse it.

Why is it “bullshit” if it’s NAI in general. We use mod psyche all the time here about whether a mod would do this vs that. Is that angle shooting?

Also, weren’t you the one who likes a “challenge.” We got a perfect one for you: deal with angle shooting.

As for whether people come here to play or not? I couldn’t care less.

You are utterly missing the point here. It does not matter if them doing that was AI or not. Its that its bullshit and should never happen in the first place. This is the type of behavior that is going to make mafia players not want to come to this community and we should not excuse it.

The whole "people will never come here" thing isn't a thing I think we largely care about. Don;t get me wrong it's cool to have more people come over here. We have never taken ourselves that serious as a mafia community, at least in terms of more competitive places like MU. We are a group of debate nerds who play with a small community of our nerd friends, we never really advertise our mafia elsewhere. It's cool to get new people like you, magoroth, and cerulean from other sites, but we have also been content to play with a small community.

I am 2 for 2 in games where angleshooting has given me borderline town confirmed positions.

Maybe. Just fucking maybe I would like to play a legit game of mafia and hate the advantage I was given. Lets be real. This second one was in a super tight PoE and I had a hardline position in part because of their angle shooting. That sucks.

If you can not understand why it sucks and why it will make people not want to play here I am not sure how to explain it to you.

Helz wrote:

I am 2 for 2 in games where angleshooting has given me borderline town confirmed positions.

Maybe. Just fucking maybe I would like to play a legit game of mafia and hate the advantage I was given. Lets be real. This second one was in a super tight PoE and I had a hardline position in part because of their angle shooting. That sucks.

If you can not understand why it sucks and why it will make people not want to play here I am not sure how to explain it to you.

Lol I’m saying if you’re scum, make it harder for you, plus you don’t know Mikal like we do, so for me it was NAI the entire time. And again, Idrc if people don’t want to play here. We’re not sweats. We have lives and jobs and family to worry about.

I have some thoughts about angle shooting and such but I can’t comment on the endgame since I did not follow once I died

ILikePie5 wrote:

Lol I’m saying if you’re scum, make it harder for you, plus you don’t know Mikal like we do, so for me it was NAI the entire time. And again, Idrc if people don’t want to play here. We’re not sweats. We have lives and jobs and family to worry about.

Im kinda confused.

I am talking about wanting clean games people can enjoy and you are talking about being try hard. Even with the limitations I placed upon myself I was strongly town read, narrowed the PoE, pushed effective mech and had a decent concluding solve. Thats whatever.

But yes, I think its a healthy thing to discuss how to have a healthy positive community experience. Saying "I do not care if people are unhappy" is just excusing the problem imo. And really justifying using rule violations for advantage speaks against your point that its not a sweaty community. If people were chill and cared more about fun than winning why break games to win?

Helz wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

Lol I’m saying if you’re scum, make it harder for you, plus you don’t know Mikal like we do, so for me it was NAI the entire time. And again, Idrc if people don’t want to play here. We’re not sweats. We have lives and jobs and family to worry about.

Im kinda confused.

I am talking about wanting clean games people can enjoy and you are talking about being try hard. Even with the limitations I placed upon myself I was strongly town read, narrowed the PoE, pushed effective mech and had a decent concluding solve. Thats whatever.

But yes, I think its a healthy thing to discuss how to have a healthy positive community experience. Saying "I do not care if people are unhappy" is just excusing the problem imo. And really justifying using rule violations for advantage speaks against your point that its not a sweaty community. If people were chill and cared more about fun than winning why break games to win?

Again, you’re using 20/20 hindsight to justify your claims. Mikal has done this as scum and town. It’s NAI in the context of the game. But if you magically believe that it ALWAYS gives an advantage, it’s not true. At worst it’s just WIFOM

ILikePie5 wrote:

Again, you’re using 20/20 hindsight to justify your claims. Mikal has done this as scum and town. It’s NAI in the context of the game. But if you magically believe that it ALWAYS gives an advantage, it’s not true. At worst it’s just WIFOM

You keep narrowing my point into an isolated incident while I am pointing out a pattern of behavior. Its not about Mikal. Its about consistently seeing the community bend rules to the point of breaking in an effort to gain an advantage in ways I have never seen tolerated by another community.

You can not have it both ways of "We are not a sweaty try hard community" and "Us bending and breaking rules for any possible advantage is just what we do." You gotta pick a lane there.

In just 2 games I have seen OOG communication, Dead players talking in games, People angling on exact host PM timings, Players looking at getting themselves modkilled to force a mech solve, and players leveraging OOG communication as a key issue in resolving alignments. Its not a single person or an isolated incident. Imo its a culture of disregard for the spirit of the game.

I have no interest in pointing fingers. I do have interest in pointing to this pattern and saying "We can do better" so we can have a more healthy community.

I can say its just my two cents. But I am certain if I started dragging people here they would never want to come back seeing a small amount of these behaviors. Much less truckloads of it from a large portion of the community.

Helz wrote:

ILikePie5 wrote:

Again, you’re using 20/20 hindsight to justify your claims. Mikal has done this as scum and town. It’s NAI in the context of the game. But if you magically believe that it ALWAYS gives an advantage, it’s not true. At worst it’s just WIFOM

You keep narrowing my point into an isolated incident while I am pointing out a pattern of behavior. Its not about Mikal. Its about consistently seeing the community bend rules to the point of breaking in an effort to gain an advantage in ways I have never seen tolerated by another community.

You can not have it both ways of "We are not a sweaty try hard community" and "Us bending and breaking rules for any possible advantage is just what we do." You gotta pick a lane there.

In just 2 games I have seen OOG communication, Dead players talking in games, People angling on exact host PM timings, Players looking at getting themselves modkilled to force a mech solve, and players leveraging OOG communication as a key issue in resolving alignments. Its not a single person or an isolated incident. Imo its a culture of disregard for the spirit of the game.

I have no interest in pointing fingers. I do have interest in pointing to this pattern and saying "We can do better" so we can have a more healthy community.

I can say its just my two cents. But I am certain if I started dragging people here they would never want to come back seeing a small amount of these behaviors. Much less truckloads of it from a large portion of the community.

Again, no one here cares whether people want to play here or not. People play here for fun. You're entitled to your opinion of whether its fun or not, but appealing to monkey thought of everyone else would think it’s bad doesn’t really matter to 90% of people here. Like no one cares that Thoth posted a troll message that had zero bearing on the game after he died. Sure he shouldn’t have done it but acting like it affected the integrity of the game is stupid.

ILikePie5 wrote:

Again, no one here cares whether people want to play here or not. People play here for fun. You're entitled to your opinion of whether its fun or not, but appealing to monkey thought of everyone else would think it’s bad doesn’t really matter to 90% of people here. Like no one cares that Thoth posted a troll message that had zero bearing on the game after he died. Sure he shouldn’t have done it but acting like it affected the integrity of the game is stupid.

I disagree that nobody cares. I want to see this community grow and I have had rather extensive conversations about some of these issues with others who want the same.

I agree that nobody cares about Thoth posting a troll message. It again cuts back to you talking about an isolated incident though so let me quote myself.

You keep narrowing my point into an isolated incident while I am pointing out a pattern of behavior.

Not much else I can say to be more clear than that. You can invalidate the specific points I make but I doubt a person on this website will say I am flatly wrong.