Periodic Table of Elements Mafia - Endgame

I'm still at a loss as to how Helz saw through my bluff.

Thoth wrote:

I'm still at a loss as to how Helz saw through my bluff.

🤦

Thoth wrote:

I'm still at a loss as to how Helz saw through my bluff.

I only halfway did. It was a cold logic cost benefit analysis. Massive risk with little gain for me and my team. I did recognize it could be a gambit which was a factor increasing risk for the massive loss but I have just played a stupid amount of mafia to where I make such calculations very quickly if that makes sense.

It was a good play. Your conclusion was wrong and I did a lot to manipulate you past that. Like when you offered to sheep my vote and I pushed you to not sheep me at all. Gotta apply layers of WIFOM but that looks like something no wolf would ever do. What wolf in their right mind would reject taking a vote from the town and getting an extra one for their team?

Duno how much sense I am making there but hopefully that explains a bit of my mindset.

Gee gee. Hopefully next game I won’t die day 1 lol.

ILikePie5 wrote:

Lunatic wrote:

The mod kill was retarded in every way. I paraphased. That was an L decision but if you want to wait months just to ruin your own game thats on you. GGs to everyone else. Mafia were cooked if the mod did cater to them by giving them a free mislynch.

90% of the words were verbatim. That’s not paraphrasing. Paraphrasing is restating something in your own words. How hard was it for you to at a high level state what your PM said without using word for word the same thing in your PM.

I changed all the verbiage to I, not talking about you like the role pm does, reformatted the whole thing, it was basocally info dumping which is the equivalent of me just googling shit if I was scum. Its a stretch to say that wasn't paraphrased. You mod killed be because your pussy was sore. Doesn't matter, you want to ruin your own game after waiting on the list for months thats on you lol. Scum needed a win anyway, theyve been on a losing streak.. A little bastard modding was over due.

To be honest this kind of issue is why I hate flavor being AI.

It did nothing to add to the game imo and just caused problems. It dragged claims and non mafia knowledge into the mafia game and at the end of the day it was just utterly harmful to players experiences while creating an unfair dynamic that favored people who had specific understanding outside of the game.

The moment I read our teams flavor and roles I was able to recognize exactly the pool we were in. But if some poor soul did not study chemistry at some point they could be the greatest mafia player on the planet and just get destroyed due to something they can not control unless they literally want to go study chemistry to play a video game. Thats not great imo.

I woulda been hurting my first game here if I was scum having to watch 2 seasons of an anime to even understand what should or should not be claimed. My personal take is that Mafia is already time intensive enough to do well. Getting extra homework with flavor just makes it a chore.

We can argue about "how close it was" all day but thats kind of not the point at the end of the day. Mod killing has a horrible negative effect on the team that it happens to. So for you to do something like that, it has to be a pretty serious infraction. Me info dumping about my role doesn't confirm me. I never even read my role pm because this is a gay ass theme, so I skipped straight to the role. People kept pestering me about the justification so I gave more. None of that town confirms me. At this point I was still on a dreamer result, and if I am scum I am 100% capable of googling any of that shit about my role pm. It never confirmed me or came anywhere close to confirming me. And I did change a reasonable amount of it. I have had people post more of their role pm's in my games and haven't mod killed them.

Whats worse, basically giving the mafia team a free mislynch or letting it play out? You actively chose an action that supported one team over an another at the end of the day because your ego and pride. If thats how to want your games to run after waiting on the sign up list, that's on you. Just telling you that it kind of invalidates the win a little bit for the scum team. If I was scum I would be pissed, knowing that my win was given to me from a bastard mod decision. Just saying.

Lunatic wrote:

We can argue about "how close it was" all day but thats kind of not the point at the end of the day. Mod killing has a horrible negative effect on the team that it happens to. So for you to do something like that, it has to be a pretty serious infraction. Me info dumping about my role doesn't confirm me. I never even read my role pm because this is a gay ass theme, so I skipped straight to the role. People kept pestering me about the justification so I gave more. None of that town confirms me. At this point I was still on a dreamer result, and if I am scum I am 100% capable of googling any of that shit about my role pm. It never confirmed me or came anywhere close to confirming me. And I did change a reasonable amount of it. I have had people post more of their role pm's in my games and haven't mod killed them.

Whats worse, basically giving the mafia team a free mislynch or letting it play out? You actively chose an action that supported one team over an another at the end of the day because your ego and pride. If thats how to want your games to run after waiting on the sign up list, that's on you. Just telling you that it kind of invalidates the win a little bit for the scum team. If I was scum I would be pissed, knowing that my win was given to me from a bastard mod decision. Just saying.

So just to be up front I did have conversations with Pie behind the scenes where I unpacked my thoughts on the subject. The part I was critical of was the locking the day cycle because of the kill. I did not unpack how reserving the flip could have preserved game integrity.

But I am curious, 1 scum 1 town was mod killed. I do feel you both broke rules although I do feel there is valid reason to question the 'must I' part on my scale of action. Do you not feel a scum mod kill with arguably less justification offsets the town modkill?

Lunatic wrote:

I changed all the verbiage to I, not talking about you like the role pm does, reformatted the whole thing, it was basocally info dumping which is the equivalent of me just googling shit if I was scum. Its a stretch to say that wasn't paraphrased. You mod killed be because your pussy was sore. Doesn't matter, you want to ruin your own game after waiting on the list for months thats on you lol. Scum needed a win anyway, theyve been on a losing streak.. A little bastard modding was over due.

You changed all the words to first person

Instead of third person like in your role card

Changed to the entire format

It was essentially dumping information, which is the same as me searching something online if I were mafia

It's a reach to say it was not in your own words

You modkilled me due to vaginal itch

It's not that important since you wanted to mess up your own game after spending months on the waiting list. It's your own fault

It's good that town lost since town has been on a winning streak

I wish we had seen some terrible modding like that more recently

The part I was critical of was the locking the day cycle because of the kill.

Modkills have to end the day instantly. Let's say it's 1v3 with two confirmed townies. If the day continues after a modkill, the unconfirmed townie can modkill themselves and leave the scum to be lynched.

Imo thats not the case. And if I may make the appeal to my experience I have quite a lot in managing mafia communities.

You can mod kill the player but not their slot and have a forced replacement while keeping their slot alive

You can mod kill the player but withhold their flip from being revealed until EoD to prevent shifting the game state

You can mod kill the player and end the day or let the day continue but either is an option.

These are all valid moderator options with different situations applying to when and how they should be applied. Its not just "Every modkill must end the day" its about game integrity and what kind of break happened. My personal view was that the mod kills were justified, I do lean twords the "Should I" bit and I do not think the "Must I" was met. Then I was critical of closing the thread.

Mikals offense was lesser but it was after a huge pattern of OOG communication and angleshooting I would not have tolerated. Honestly while there is growing pains I do feel this community needs to get right with following rules. There was portions of the game I was questioning if there was OOG communication breaking total game integrity just because of how loosely followed rules are. If you guys get access to the Mafia chat you will see it but I duno if thats common here.

Like, there is many ways to remove a player from a game who has caused harm while preserving game integrity. There is certainly a balance there that exists between punishing rule violations and preserving game integrity. But there is not an absolute on it.

But I am curious, 1 scum 1 town was mod killed. I do feel you both broke rules although I do feel there is valid reason to question the 'must I' part on my scale of action. Do you not feel a scum mod kill with arguably less justification offsets the town modkill?

Modkilling in general is just bad for mafia. If it must be done, it should be used pretty rarely. Pie just kind of did it, didn't give warnings, didn't really give two shits how it effected the outcome of the game, etc. I have seen people do other things to offset unfair stuff, like maybe award scum team an extra roleblock or something. Not to say even that was needed here. Either way modkilling is pretty dumb, Pie took that stance against mago being a strict mod, but he was single handedly and objectively a 10x wrose mod than he was accusing mago of being. Just saying.

Mikals offense was lesser 

Now that is a wild take. How did me paraphrasing my role pm negatively effect the game more than OGI? Aren't you the one who has had consistent issues with OGI? Somehow its a lesser offense when its on your side? Thats crazy bro

Anyways bring it on bitches. I'll fight all of you on it. Zerg me harder. I 'll die on this hill. You are wrong, and I will argue this with you day and night

Lunatic wrote:

Mikals offense was lesser 

Now that is a wild take. How did me paraphrasing my role pm negatively effect the game more than OGI? Aren't you the one who has had consistent issues with OGI? Somehow its a lesser offense when its on your side? Thats crazy bro

The difference being the host hard declared that flavor was AI and voiced its a rule break to quote your role. Prior to you even making the post you had like 2 or 3 people flatly voicing "Do not do it, its a rule break" reflecting knowledgeable intent of a rule break prior to doing it. Thats the main difference imo.

Mikal broke a lot of rules imo and quite bluntly I do not know why OOG communication is tolerated at all here much less why mentioning it is not an instant smite every single game. But for whatever reason this site has a culture of acting like thats normal. But there were 2 hard listed rules voiced that were broken. Rule 1 Mikal broke. Do not edit or delete posts.

Granted what they deleted would have not changed anything but I will again mention their pattern of flagrantly skirting the line of acceptable behavior.

The other one was you basically word for word quoting your role PM in a game where flavor was flatly declared to have a split and be totally AI. This would give a huge unfair advantage at the end of the day.

Both were rule breaks. Imo Mikal deleting an image that would have changed nothing is a lesser issue than you hard quoting your role but we can look at the pattern of Mikals behavior if we want to assign greater or lesser blame.

I was apathetic enough about this game I shrugged off the course I felt that would be most likely to make my team win so please do not mistake me for really caring about the win. I do feel both mod actions qualify for the first 2 categories in my metric even if I would have personally handled it a bit differently.

GG, congrats to scum on their win! Sorry I've been so inactive lately, I'm going to try to be better in the future.

My two cents on modkills ending the day: they should if the modkilled player is town but should not if they are scum. That way it will always hurt the team of the player who got modkilled, thus maximally disincentivizing rule breaking.

If you really want to call stuff out also the site literally got modified because you after death broke a rule clearly stated not to like posts after death. That is 100% literally why that feature was removed from this section.

I get disagreeing with the mod kill. I have specific reservations but while I hold you in probably the highest regard out of players on this site I do think you made some mistakes here that are not unreasonable for the mods action.

I do say this and you know more than most how critical of Pie I have been in some respects in the past. Total Autsitic Honesty

Pretty clear. As clear as why Mikal was killed really (and I personally feel they shoulda been modkilled the moment they mentioned Thoth was posting in the server but not in the game) but thats just me.

I cannot believe you all fell for Mikal's southern belle bimbo act and lynched Casey. Was legit fuming when I woke up and saw that lol.

The difference being the host hard declared that flavor was AI and voiced its a rule break to quote your role. Prior to you even making the post you had like 2 or 3 people flatly voicing "Do not do it, its a rule break" reflecting knowledgeable intent of a rule break prior to doing it. Thats the main difference imo.

They said dont use chatGPT. I didnt use chat GPT. I wrote it out, didnt even copy and paste anything lol.

The other one was you basically word for word quoting your role PM in a game where flavor was flatly declared to have a split and be totally AI. This would give a huge unfair advantage at the end of the day.

It wasn't wprd for word and it was basically info dumping lol. If I was scum and googling that mineral or whatever I was I could have done the exact same thing. Acting as if that town confirms me is wild. If anything it should have made me more suspicious. Actively favoring the scum team by giving them a free mislynch over something that didn't town confirm me in any way is 100% bastard. If he wants to do that its fine, its his own game hes ruining, but it definitely takes away from your victory, which is also unfair to you guys.

Both were rule breaks. Imo Mikal deleting an image that would have changed nothing is a lesser issue than you hard quoting your role but we can look at the pattern of Mikals behavior if we want to assign greater or lesser blame.

Paraphrasing my role pm after being asked by several players to do so is hardly a rule break.

I was apathetic enough about this game I shrugged off the course I felt that would be most likely to make my team win so please do not mistake me for really caring about the win. I do feel both mod actions qualify for the first 2 categories in my metric even if I would have personally handled it a bit differently.

Mod kills need to be reserved with a lot more discretion than what was used here. This is a game we play in our free time, it isn't that serious lol. Your gonna ruin the game as a mod because someone miffed you? Like go ahead I guess lol seems kind of stupid to me.

If you really want to call stuff out also the site literally got modified because you after death broke a rule clearly stated not to like posts after death. That is 100% literally why that feature was removed from this section.

This is so wild. Mikal also accused me of this and I told him I didn't do it. I LITERALLY DIDNT LIKE A POST. The fucked up thing is I cant even screenshot proof to you because the feature isn't there anymore. Hopefully someone else grows some balls and owns up to this shit. Or maybe have a mod check, if they have that ability.

Helz wrote:

Pretty clear. As clear as why Mikal was killed really (and I personally feel they shoulda been modkilled the moment they mentioned Thoth was posting in the server but not in the game) but thats just me.

I am fine with you disagreeing with me on the role pm shit, but blatantly falsely accusing me of something I didn't do is actually fucked up man.

i will admit i did like some of bullishs posts in dp2. sorry i guess i didnt read the rules didnt know that was a no no

Bullish wrote:

Thoth: are you scum

Helz: no

Thoth: TOWNLOCK

Tbh I was townreading Thoth when I died solely off of vibes. This was bad. The fact that his claim sounded like a textbook overcomplicated Thoth fake claim was bad. I was side-eyeing him for much of the game over these two things. Overall the chats definitely fucked with us more than they helped

Mikal should’ve 100% been lynched DP2 for a couple of reasons

Hmm… I felt like that was about happen. Maybe something happened to prevent that from happening? I don’t remember.

Y’all can be the jury on this, but I think it actually helped the game move forward for town cause Luna was a prime mislynch target anyways after leading the Mago lynch

If I was a prime mislynch target then how does info dumping about my mineral save me from that? Do you think as scum I couldn’t use basic google to create a fake Justification?



Alright, so some thoughts on how things played out. I'm not going to comment on the ongoing discussion of the modkills, only how they impacted things.

Losing Luna DP2 was a pretty big problem. As I said to him and Pie, if I understood his justification better (the initial reasoning he gave did not make sense to me), I would have at least townread him through the end of that DP, largely a combination of seeing some behavioral towntells I've seen from him and his apparent frustration with the theme.

That being said, I'll fully admit I wasn't onboard with a Mikal lynch at the time and I should have been. That was largely because I couldn't see a world in which he sees my Lightning Rod claim and claims another redirection role almost immediately afterward. That's WIFOM thinking and it should have been outweighed by other elements of his claim.

Then we get to DP3 and even I was starting to be convinced that Mikal was a reasonable lynch... only for a sizeable amount of the DP to turn on Casey and hammer them overnight. The lynch DP3 should at least have been between Bullish and Mikal, and I still don't get this decision. Uncertainty over the Dream was not a good enough reason to ignore what was pretty behaviorally consistent play from Casey, an admittedly weak early softclaim and a huge risk in having been visited overnight.

By DP4 it was obvious Mikal was scum. If he hadn't gotten himself modkilled, he would have been lynched.

DP5 was almost all about Helz, and frankly dude, your efforts to manipulate me almost backfired. I considered the Shining lynch early and that consideration only got stronger as the DP went on. Your sus of Bullish and Shining and your team's subsequent kill on the former had me almost dismissing all of my reads on Thoth and just defaulting to Shining the moment I entered DP6. It's the reason I told Pie that I was planning to go with my gutread against him and lynch Shining.

And then DP6 happened and the spiral was real. I could see a lot of what Thoth was doing was at least behaviorally uncertain, especially given his chat with Helz, so a lot of what happened there - inconsistencies in what he told me the previous DP and gaps in his logic - weren't moving the needle much for me. The decision to backtrack on the DP4 reveal of his claim, however, tilted me, as did the whole "I'm the heaviest, so I'm the Soldier" justification, which was just straight up not what his PM said. Shining's "Uranium is Bomb" stood out to me too, but at least it was somewhat in line with other flips in the game in terms of showing a clear use case and effect or something specific to the chemical makeup. So the only thing I was hanging onto as a possibility that Shining was scum was that Helz had strongly scumread him before exiting the game, and that wasn't enough.

Anyway, good game to scum. Pie's right that this partially came down to errors Thoth and I made in those external chats, and I'll own mine. Shining, you're on notice. Expect to have to claim early upcoming games. Expect to have to participate. I know you've complained about how often you're mislynched before, but scum play like this is going to draw attention to your absence.

For the record Whiteflame did play very well. And I don’t blame him for the lylo mislynch at all. I was perplexed when Thoth claimed soldier also. I was actually so impressed with his initial claim and his goal of hiding soldier. Figured that role was the only way we were coming back from this.