BYOR Mafia [Endgame]

ThOtH lIeD fOr No ReAsOn

You are a retard, but it’s okay because you are our retard.

My plan going into MYLO was to find the quickhammer and overturn it immediately. Quickhammer would’ve failed. Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/8/2026 at 11:15 PM (post #2)

ThOtH lIeD fOr No ReAsOn

You should’ve just said the Redirector part my man.

Kind of misleading to call it "mislynch and lose" if town might not have mislynched and lost. If we're going to define it by numbers alone, why not rename it to better reflect that definition?

Confused by the Mikal town MVP.

Originally Posted by ILikePie5 on 7/9/2026 at 12:15 AM (post #4)

My plan going into MYLO was to find the quickhammer and overturn it immediately. Quickhammer would’ve failed. Just food for thought.

Yeah. I had neglected to clarify that that your role disabled in Mylo / Lylo which would make me bastard for disabling it without it being clearly written in your r ole PM. If you were still alive then the problem would be solved with you just redirecting the lynch to luna.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/9/2026 at 12:15 AM (post #3)

You are a retard, but it’s okay because you are our retard.

Aww you're too kind

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/9/2026 at 12:17 AM (post #6)

Kind of misleading to call it "mislynch and lose" if town might not have mislynched and lost. If we're going to define it by numbers alone, why not rename it to better reflect that definition?

This. 100% this.

I hate perma-Godfather when there are only two scum. What good is half a Cop?

I always thought of MYLO as strictly numerical, i.e., 1-3 is MYLO even if there is no way for scum to win overnight after a mislynch, because defining it in terms of possible outcomes could give too much insight into the setup. I think how MYLO and LYLO are defined is worthy of more discussion, and that hosts should specify exactly what they mean by MYLO/LYLO.

Originally Posted by Thoth on 7/9/2026 at 12:22 AM (post #11)

I always thought of MYLO as strictly numerical, i.e., 1-3 is MYLO even if there is no way for scum to win overnight after a mislynch, because defining it in terms of possible outcomes could give too much insight into the setup. I think how MYLO and LYLO are defined is worthy of more discussion, and that hosts should specify exactly what they mean by MYLO/LYLO.

I think it pretty much only says "there are mechanics in play you're not fully aware of." That's not terribly revealing.

As I see it, this is a straightforward question.

MYLO is defined independently of the available night actions that follow it. It's the point where parity is two players off, i.e. there are two more members of town than there are of scum. It theoretically affords town the opportunity to VTNL or NL and still survive to the next DP, independent of whether an NK is successful.

The reason I mention all that is because, technically, that would also make LYLO impossible to reach so long as there's a protective role. Town can always VTNL or NL, so they can always survive to the next DP if a protective role successfully protects the NK target. I recognize that's unlikely to happen (I can't imagine any game where town just decides to VTNL in the hopes that they will be successful preventing the NK), but if the standard is that the loss must be a given post-hammer, then the same issue applies to hammering a VTNL at LYLO. By this logic, as long as there's a protective role in play that can stop the NK completely, MYLO and LYLO functionally don't exist, or they only exist in specific circumstances (e.g. when the NK is unpreventable and/or someone is successfully lynched).

So I don't really care whether we won this game or not, but I am sincerely lost on why this is a debate. MYLO and LYLO should be established by how close to parity town and scum are, period. If there's a role that alters that parity (e.g. a town player counts as two or a Restless Spirit counts towards parity after the player is eliminated), then that can affect when MYLO and LYLO start, but those are very specific circumstances that occur during the DP. If it's something that could happen during the following NP, it doesn't affect the status of the DP itself. It's still MYLO even if Mag1c could Commute all town players in the final NP, it just transitions to LYLO the next DP.

If someone wants to explain how I'm wrong about all this, be my guest.

Tie feels like a cheap way to save face. Should have just made a decision and stuck with it or let us gamble the kill vs magics protection in the night phase.

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 10:17 PM (post #6)

Kind of misleading to call it "mislynch and lose" if town might not have mislynched and lost. If we're going to define it by numbers alone, why not rename it to better reflect that definition?

Confused by the Mikal town MVP.

Maybe he meant LVP? I would understand that a bit more

Originally Posted by Wryly on 7/8/2026 at 10:17 PM (post #6)

Kind of misleading to call it "mislynch and lose" if town might not have mislynched and lost. If we're going to define it by numbers alone, why not rename it to better reflect that definition?

You would lose in this situation though unless magic targets perfectly.

Anyway, brief thinking about the setup and resolution.

On the setup, just kind of weird to give scum an extra NK and make that role almost identical to a town role. Kohai already mentioned this up top, but that's a lot of killing roles and that's also a trap for scum to potentially fall into. If we hadn't decided to kill Mikal up front, I think we just would have lost by NP2 after Luna's strategy to straight claim his role would have just gotten him CC'd and lynched.

Some interesting other roles, maybe a little too much in the way of role confirmation. Theoretically, Rex, Banana, Wryly, Pie and Mikal could have all confirmed their roles and aside from Banana's which was pretty likely town and Wryly's being a big maybe, the other three would have been close to lock town after they got confirmed (Rex would have to communicate info from a dead player, but he could do it). We only got lucky that POE wasn't a massive issue by the end.

As for the outcome... yeah, it's not the easiest thing to accept. Town left themselves open to that final mislynch and I think it mechanically should go through. It's especially weird given that, yeah, Mharman was lying about the whole "Redirects and RBs don't work on me" thing. He would have been Redirected, a different target would have been NK'd, it would have been game over. It was a guaranteed loss for town.

Even if you disagree with my entire argument above and you believe protective roles should be considered in whether you've reached MYLO, I don't think it should stop at that. If the existence of a protective role during the NP is sufficient to demonstrate that it's not actually MYLO, then all roles should be considered. If there's a route, no matter how small or remote, by which that protective role could plausibly stop the NK, then I can at least see a case for saying it's not MYLO. However, if said protective role is absolutely capped with no room to argue that some other fuckery might occur, then said protective role is effectively a non-issue. I believe this falls into the latter category.

I don't care about the points, I don't care how this is entered, but if we're going to select a means to evaluate whether we've reached MYLO/LYLO, we can't be arbitrary about it. We can't only consider some potential night actions and not others.

Magic: - Town popular 

You are FDR, the 32nd president of the United States. As the longest serving President in US history, you won 4 electins in landslide victories. In your first 100 days as President, you spearheaded unprecedented legislations such as the new deal. In addition, you lead theUnited States through the great depression and WW2. Your fireside chats gave hope to a depressed nation. This makes you the town doctor | non-consecutive. 

Abilities:

Each night you may target a player and make them immune to killing actions. You may not target the same person twice in a row. 

Win condition: 

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated.

Where does it say you cannot be blocked or redirected?

This revelation makes the arugment that this should have been a scum win even more clear cut.

Your argument was that even if the definition of MYLO/LYLO included roles, you had the guaranteed play to win to win the game.

That argument hinges on town being honest about their roles. Town can play mind games. The point of my bluff was to introduce uncertainty.

You see while there was a winning play, said uncertainty means there’s no guarantee mafia makes said winning play. Considering the fact that you believed me in the last DP, there’s a possibility you would not have even tried to rb or redirect me. Just the possibility is enough, from a host perspective.

This means the game still came down to the night phase, if Wryly were quicklynched.

Therefore, *if* the definition of MYLO/LYLO includes roles, then that DP was not MYLO/LYLO.

If it is purely based on numbers, my argument isn’t relevant. But the reason for the bluff was to demonstrate the argument, to prevent you from having a pinch and winning under both definitions.

1. This is why we need to stop claiming early. We lost our only town-directed counter to the extra scum kill because we did so.
2. Thoth and Mikal both lying and refusing to elaborate DP1 got Thoth mislynched.
3. If we had lynched between me & WF DP2 instead of no lynching we had a 50/50 chance of winning the game.
4. Putting two killing roles in this game was retarded.

If we had lynched between me & WF DP2 instead of no lynching we had a 50/50 chance of winning the game.

Putting two killing roles in this game was retarded

Your fourth point is exactly why I felt the VTNL was safe. I figured the reason for the 10th player was to accommodate for the vigilante, and nothing more. 9/10 times VTNLing is the correct play in a 6v2 like that. We ran into the 1.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/9/2026 at 8:26 AM (post #20)

Your argument was that even if the definition of MYLO/LYLO included roles, you had the guaranteed play to win to win the game.

That argument hinges on town being honest about their roles. Town can play mind games. The point of my bluff was to introduce uncertainty.

You see while there was a guaranteed play, mind games from town can mean there’s no guarantee mafia makes said winning play. Considering the fact that you believed me in the last DP, there’s a possibility you would not have even tried to rb or redirect me. Just the possibility is enough.

This means the game still came down to the night phase, if Wryly were quicklynched.

Therefore, *if* the definition of MYLO/LYLO includes roles, then that DP was not MYLO/LYLO.

If it is purely based on numbers, it isn’t relevant. But the bluff was to demonstrate the argument, to prevent you from having a pinch and winning under both definitions.

...except that wouldn't have changed our night actions at all. FYI, I didn't believe you, but even if we did, we still would have at least tried to Redirect you. Even if it would have failed, there was no point in just not using it and there was literally nothing else stopping us from performing a successful NK. Maybe Banana could have tried to claim that she had a hidden protective role that we also had to stop, but neither of us would have bought it and the outcome would have been the same.

I don't think that's your point, though. It's not about this specific game or how it would have played out, it's about the ability to bluff and introduce uncertainty that the mafia team has to juggle during the NP. You create a possibility that something unknown or unmanageable is in play and that could change scum behaviors which could also change the outcome of the game. I don't think that applies here, but fair point that it is something that could apply in future games.

That being said, that's not the focus of the discussion surrounding MYLO and LYLO unless mods are going to start considering bluffed roles in how they process lynches, which would just make things more complicated and require mods to effectively take anything anyone says about their roles as gospel, since they'll never know for sure that the scum team isn't buying it. The focus here is on whether an actual role would change the calculus of whether we've reached MYLO/LYLO, in which case, as Thoth pointed out, it would require the mod to effectively confirm the existence of a protective role left in the game and have that role's mere existence, regardless of other roles present, change the degree to which parity is applied in the DP before it is used. I've already given my position on that.

...except that wouldn't have changed our night actions at all. FYI, I didn't believe you, but even if we did, we still would have at least tried to Redirect you. Even if it would have failed, there was no point in just not using it and there was literally nothing else stopping us from performing a successful NK. Maybe Banana could have tried to claim that she had a hidden protective role that we also had to stop, but neither of us would have bought it and the outcome would have been the same.

Sure, but the host can’t be sure of that. Again, just the possibility of one of you two getting lazy because of the bluff, is enough for it to come down to the night phase. So from the host perspective, it can’t be MYLO under that more complex definition.

I don't think that's your point, though. It's not about this specific game or how it would have played out, it's about the ability to bluff and introduce uncertainty that the mafia team has to juggle during the NP. You create a possibility that something unknown or unmanageable is in play and that could change scum behaviors which could also change the outcome of the game. I don't think that applies here, but fair point that it is something that could apply in future games.

Kohai needed to make a ruling based on a policy, based on a definition of MYLO. The fact that my point stands in general, means that policy of not factoring in win-securing plays would be affirmed under the more complex definition, even in this game.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/9/2026 at 8:46 AM (post #24)

...except that wouldn't have changed our night actions at all. FYI, I didn't believe you, but even if we did, we still would have at least tried to Redirect you. Even if it would have failed, there was no point in just not using it and there was literally nothing else stopping us from performing a successful NK. Maybe Banana could have tried to claim that she had a hidden protective role that we also had to stop, but neither of us would have bought it and the outcome would have been the same.

Sure, but the host can’t be sure of that. Again, just the possibility of one of you two getting lazy because of the bluff, is enough for it to come down to the night phase. So from the host perspective, it can’t be MYLO under that more complex definition.

Having it come down to the night phase is fine, I don't care about that. If you want to argue that the NP should have been processed before a winner was declared, I'm cool with that. My issue is with changing the terms under which Wryly's role ceased to function by considering your role as a plausible way to extend the game. Especially if we're considering bluffs, I'll just start claiming a hidden protective role when we're at MYLO in any game where there's a role that ceases to function at MYLO. That way, I can ensure it never becomes MYLO because there will always be some doubt.

If you want to argue that the MYLO/LYLO definition should be purely based on numbers, and never include roles, because of the complexities of the definition that includes the game’s roles, then you have a point worth considering. But in my opinion (which is biased, yes), that should be resolved for future games.

I support the draw.

Originally Posted by whiteflame on 7/9/2026 at 8:51 AM (post #25)

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/9/2026 at 8:46 AM (post #24)

...except that wouldn't have changed our night actions at all. FYI, I didn't believe you, but even if we did, we still would have at least tried to Redirect you. Even if it would have failed, there was no point in just not using it and there was literally nothing else stopping us from performing a successful NK. Maybe Banana could have tried to claim that she had a hidden protective role that we also had to stop, but neither of us would have bought it and the outcome would have been the same.

Sure, but the host can’t be sure of that. Again, just the possibility of one of you two getting lazy because of the bluff, is enough for it to come down to the night phase. So from the host perspective, it can’t be MYLO under that more complex definition.

Having it come down to the night phase is fine, I don't care about that. If you want to argue that the NP should have been processed before a winner was declared, I'm cool with that. My issue is with changing the terms under which Wryly's role ceased to function by considering your role as a plausible way to extend the game. Especially if we're considering bluffs, I'll just start claiming a hidden protective role when we're at MYLO in any game where there's a role that ceases to function at MYLO. That way, I can ensure it never becomes MYLO because there will always be some doubt.

fyi I edited that comment above, realizing I had more to say

I don’t think there was a changing of the terms. It wasn’t clear to begin with because MYLO/LYLO wasn’t definitively defined.

fyi I edited that comment above, realizing I had more to say

Kohai needed to make a ruling based on a policy, based on a definition of MYLO. The fact that my point stands in general, means that policy of not factoring in win-securing plays would be affirmed under the more complex definition, even in this game.

Yep, I see the addition. While I think this is a point worth considering, this seems to be retroactively throwing in more concerns than Kohai was considering when he was making this decision. We can and should talk about it, but I don't think this applies to the outcome of this specific game. At least in our conversation about it, the issue was the existence of a protective role (your Doc) and how that could have factored into the outcome of the game.

If you want to argue that the MYLO/LYLO definition should be purely based on numbers, and never include roles, because of the complexities of the definition that includes the game’s roles, then you have a point worth considering. But in my opinion (which is biased, yes), that should be resolved for future games.

I support the draw.

I mean, I have argued that. I do think we should have a standardized definition of MYLO and LYLO, otherwise this is almost certainly going to come up again or, at minimum, there's going to be substantial confusion between games modded by different people who have distinct conceptions of the terms.

I take issue with the draw, not because it isn't purely based on numbers, but because it arbitrarily only considers whether a protective role is still in the game, not whether any other roles could (and would) have prevented said protective role from being effective. If we want to involve roles in the assessment of whether we've reached MYLO, then I think effectively dismissing any existing manipulative roles from scum is putting a finger on the scale. I understand the draw solely from the perspective of "things got complicated at the end and Kohai doesn't want to punish anyone for not understanding what happened."

I don’t think there was a changing of the terms. It wasn’t clear to begin with because MYLO/LYLO wasn’t definitively defined.

Alright, I'll rephrase: a lack of clarity over the terms, and subsequent attempt to provide said clarity too late. To the extent that I agree with the draw, I recognize that having this argument in the middle of the game was never going to work. I get just wanting to set the game aside so that we could proceed to discuss it without considering how it affects the outcome of this specific game.

Originally Posted by Mag1cman on 7/9/2026 at 6:54 AM (post #26)

If you want to argue that the MYLO/LYLO definition should be purely based on numbers, and never include roles, because of the complexities of the definition that includes the game’s roles, then you have a point worth considering. But in my opinion (which is biased, yes), that should be resolved for future games.

I support the draw.

Town had 0 way to win after the mislynch. That’s the definition of MYLO. I gabe you the benefit of the doubt when you said nothing could stop your protect but turns out that was false. Nothing could have happened that night to stop our win. There’s no world where that wasn’t mylo and no world where town deserved a draw.

I definitely sympathize with Lunatic and whiteflame here, but I don't get the sense we've made real progress reaching an agreed-upon definition of MYLO. Is this something we're going to leave it for individual moderators to define?