Retro Mafia - Endgame

I had RT(Vader) + Casey, with Pie as 3p when I died.

You know I’m going to disagree with you on this game being scum sided. This was townsided because of the chat mechanic. Scum thrive on town not being able to coordinate their night actions without scum knowing.

I think the rule is that I can only win as mafia when I'm on a team with Pie, lol.

Good game! A little bit of a shame that the town lost since there was some genuinely good town play in it, particularly from WF and Mharman. Unfortunately, some baffling play from Icon also really hurt the town, as did the sudden hammer from RT. That quick and easy DP1 definitely helped us out a lot.

Thanks to Mikal for hosting this game! It was fun. Sorry for going AWOL towards the end, life has been crazy. But hey, we still won!

Damn, Pie had me completely bamboozled. Well-played. I assumed if he was scum he would carry out the NK NP1 after confirming a passive role. I'm starting to think that the mason chats might have been somewhat of a liability to town for all the benefit they offered when it came to coordinating night actions. There was so much going on between Whiteflame, Ragnar, Earth, and Mharman that I wasn't privy to that to me it just looked like they were all constantly lying and I had a hard time trusting any of them. I especially mistrusted the fact that Ragnar didn't level with his role at the beginning of the last DP and that probably would have lead me to continue to scum read him even if Pie hadn't manipulated me into visiting Casey.

But overall, Pie played a really fantastic scum game.

It was interesting to see how impacted the game was with the mason chat. I feel like it adds a layer of trust that isn’t present in most games. Would like to explore it more as it reduces the post count and encourages ways to solve the game. There is more balancing to work out with it though

As for NP2 + NP3, I commanded night actions for multiple players... here's what I decided and why:

Mag1cman:

NP2: Doctor Rangar (I had felt the NK was gonna be between Whiteflame and I, so I found a way to self-protect)

NP3: Cure Rex (no info on results was coming up the chain, so I figured Casey was hiding stuff from town... no one else said to Whiteflame they were injured, so I assumed Rex was)

Whiteflame:

NP2: Use bulletproof (He was a very likely NK target; in particular, I felt scum had a strong incentive to cut town's communication)

NP3: Waive (I wanted him to be visible to investigative roles if one targeted him- the alternative was to use Lunatic's aesthetic)

Ragnar:

NP2: Deflect (This was my way of self-protecting; he wanted to roleblock Vader and I vetoed it cause I didn't like how it instantly lost to anyone but Vader committing. I did think of the fact that the NK could be blocked if the same scum tried to roleblock Ragnar as well, but that was a side reason for the deflect.)

NP3: Roleblock Casey (Earlier I had sent a message to Casey saying we'll be watching her- I was hoping to disincentivise her from comitting the NK in case Ragnar couldn't switch his night action to the deflect... since the kill didn't work with what I thought was someone else committing the NK, I felt there was an incentive to try having Casey carry out the NK here.)

Shining:

NP2: Use tracker, any target (I wanted to read him based on what target he chose and what result he gave)

NP3: Waive (Didn't want any townie to be redirected into his PGO)

Vader:

NP2: Waive (If he was town I wanted him to save his absorber for later)

NP3: None (I had him as lock scum at this point)

obv Vader didn't listen to me, but he was scum

Scum had many ways to get multiple NKs... in a 3v8.

And as for the chats, all it takes is for one mafioso to gain someone's trust.

This was scumsided.

I’ll say this much: I was never quite sure of Pie, but he played a really good game as scum. If I hadn’t been in a chat with Earth, it would probably have been a dead heat between them for the third scum.

Also, huge props to both Mharman and Ragnar on this one. Wasn’t easy getting to the point that I would accept there were so many JOATs, but being in a chat with both of you made that plausible enough that I was willing to go for it on some ballsy team play, which worked out even though we lost in the end. Will team with you guys any day.

Really felt for you throughout this game, man. The Beloved Princess claim was always going to be sussed, just wish I’d trusted my gut on that one (basically was saying “hey, that’s a lot of JOATs and not a lot of claimed negative utility, so this would make sense…”) but went with my head and executed the lynch for bad reasons. Also, can entirely sympathize with how things went after you subbed back in. Just a bad way to be placed in, man.

btw you could've redirected someone into Casey's PGO for an extra NK. Some mods make Redirectors immune to the roles they redirect others to... Mikal is one such mod.

To expound on it a bit more, I kept thinking at multiple times during this game that I felt like I was playing as scum because of the mason chat. Putting out false reads to gauge reactions, lying about who I scum read to try and manipulate night actions. I feel like it almost eliminated a lot of the behavioral reads that I've come to rely upon because they're predicated on an information asymmetry between town and scum, but that information asymmetry became much more universal. It really does completely change the game and how you 'feel out' other people for having town motivation.

In a normal game, your analysis has to be public and opened to scrutiny, you don't have an option for private analysis. Removing a large amount of the town game from public review really does change everything about how the game feels and how you approach it.

Feels nice that I had two out of three scum dead to rights; even if clueless about the third.

whiteflame was susing Pie, and I could entertain that notion, but I think had the game continued Pie would have won in the end after killing whiteflame.

What was your verbatim reaction to rolling Lone Wolf for your first game on DC?

Entirely fair, honestly. A lot of this rode on our private chats, which also were the only reason I bought the existence of four town JOATs and so many pseudo-CCs. This setup would absolutely not work in any context where these Mason chats did not exist, there’s just too much basis for sussing claims otherwise. At the same time, it meant behavioral reads changed dramatically, and I was placed in a nexus point where I had to decide whether scum were just manipulating me every which way or they were telling the truth. You have no idea how much I second guessed my behavioral reads, just so much.

Scum had many ways to get multiple NKs... in a 3v8.

We had a Lone Wolf who we didn’t even know till DP4 when Supa claimed my character. If we had killed him any of the previous NPs, with POE it would’ve been an autoloss

And as for the chats, all it takes is for one mafioso to gain someone's trust.

This was scumsided.

If you 3 weren’t connected, scum would’ve won that game easily hands down. After RT/Vader we only had one path to victory and that was convincing REF to run into Casey’s bomb. Literally one. Everything else had us losing the game as I told Mikal

Scum had many ways to get multiple NKs... in a 3v8.

We had a Lone Wolf who we didn’t even know till DP4 when Supa claimed my character. If we had killed him any of the previous NPs, with POE it would’ve been an autoloss

And as for the chats, all it takes is for one mafioso to gain someone's trust.

This was scumsided.

If you 3 weren’t connected, scum would’ve won that game easily hands down. After RT/Vader we only had one path to victory and that was convincing REF to run into Casey’s bomb. Literally one. Everything else had us losing the game as I told Mikal

btw you could've redirected someone into Casey's PGO for an extra NK. Some mods make Redirectors immune to the roles they redirect others to... Mikal is one such mod.

Yes, we could’ve. We didn’t see that though at the time cause both Casey and I were legitimately busy af with work.

Also, Ragnar is insane for getting to 95K on that game. It took me 3.5 hours of nonstop playing to get to 110K. And I only submitted at the last second to ensure I’d win

I knew it was a mistake to submit it before it was due. But I also thought I kinda suck at that game, so someone like Magic would top it with ease.

What was the item anyways?

bruh. I can't get the image embed to work and I can't delete posts

Must have been that redirect he used NP2.

You guys didn't see most of Pie's scum play. He had me convinced from NP2 that Casey was sus so when he came up with a plan to track her to POE the NK I kind of shrugged and did it because my town read on WF was solidified at that point anyway, which improved my reads of Earth and to a lesser extend Ragnar, and Casey was one of my top other scum reads.

Giving Earth 2 abilities based on OoT items and making him the OG Zelda was also kind of a dick move Mikal.

I knew it was a mistake to submit it before it was due. But I also thought I kinda suck at that game, so someone like Magic would top it with ease.

I was not predicting 95K tho. How long did that take you?

What was the item anyways?

For scum it was a redirector and for town a watcher

Great game guys. This was an interesting setup.

I admit my play was quite sub-par. My town role was really bad and was almost a policy lynch. The second wolf role I was really hampered by the fake claim supa left behind and the fact I didn't know who my buddies were. I really don't know what an absorber role does and I don't think anyone would believe supa wouldn't have used it.

I had a bit of a wolf read on WF and so I decided to try and go all in, but that ended up back firing.

Giving Earth 2 abilities based on OoT items and making him the OG Zelda was also kind of a dick move Mikal.

I get this, but as I pointed out, a lot of moves came from later games. Mine came from a later game than the one I was in, and Ragnar’s Rapid Spin move came from Gen 2. It wasn’t that much later, but still, not the same game.

Giving Earth 2 abilities based on OoT items and making him the OG Zelda was also kind of a dick move Mikal.

100% agree lol. I was baffled when I saw that even knowing that he was town

Also, when did flips stop being done at the end of the DP? I remember always getting either a 'they were guilty!' or 'they were innocent!' after the hammer. If that de rigeur now, or just a Mikal thing?

I think it’s just a Mikal thing

We had a Lone Wolf who we didn’t even know till DP4 when Supa claimed my character. If we had killed him any of the previous NPs, with POE it would’ve been an autoloss

That depends on fake claims, plus the tracker + tracker was always angle you could fight the PoE on...

This ofc assumes you don't just win early by chaining NKs before town can do much.

If you 3 weren’t connected, scum would’ve won that game easily hands down. After RT/Vader we only had one path to victory and that was convincing REF to run into Casey’s bomb. Literally one. Everything else had us losing the game as I told Mikal

But that's my point with the masons. It only takes one scum to get himself trusted to weaponize them for scum.

Even then, there was still play left- you were still widely townread and convincing Rex to stay with his scumread on Earth wouldn't have been too hard. He had a sus on Ragnar as well.

Even then, there was still play left- you were still widely townread and convincing Rex to stay with his scumread on Earth wouldn't have been too hard. He had a sus on Ragnar as well.

Nah Pie is right. My entire scum read on Earth was predicated on him and WF maybe being a team. Once we saw the Supa flip in the next DP it would have town confirmed WF to me and my Earth read would have evaporated. We probably would have ended up lynching Casey that DP and if Pie went hard defending her it would have chipped away at his town cred. It would have been very tough for him to pull it off.