Bastard games

Given that I'm much less experienced than most players here, let alone on MafiaScum or MafiaUniverse, my opinions might not be worth much, but I'll give them anyway.

I disagree that alignment-changing roles are necessarily bastard. They're definitely not bastard if the possibility of alignment change is publicly announced by the start of the game. I'm used to playing with cults and recruiters because those are common in my Discord playgroup, and I'm not familiar with the gameplay cultures of MS/MU, but I'm guessing that they consider these bastard because their metagames evolve over geologic time and cults were seen as against the spirit of Mafia in decades past.

Scum editing role flips, i.e., Tailor, is borderline bastard. The problem with requiring games with this to be declared bastard is that announcing its existence makes it much weaker.

Directly lying in role PMs is definitely bastard. Hidden mechanics, which my upcoming Culture game will have, are not always bastard. I wouldn't call it bastard if someone had a hidden Bulletproof, but a hidden Paranoid Gun Owner is 100% bastard. I do think it would be bastard for role flips to not reveal all hidden mechanics.

My tentative proposal is that we compile two lists of bastard mechanics: ones that are totally bastard, like outright lies in role PMs; and ones that are kinda-bastard, like cults and Tailor. These lists might never be comprehensive, nor should they aim to be. Moderators can use the lists to decide whether their game is not bastard, kinda-bastard, or totally bastard, with games being classified by their most bastardy element. Mods can declare their game as any level of bastard or say nothing. Whether players should refuse to play in games where the mods do not reveal the bastardization quotient is something I think we can figure out over time.

Fake flips are 1000% bastard, except for Tailor, which is borderline. I thought I mentioned this, but forgot.

I don't see how anyone can consider recruiters or cults on par with being told your role is X when it's actually Y.

What’s stopping mods from just putting general disclaimer in all games that affiliation changing roles could exist and just never putting them in

Sounds like a bastard thing to do.

I don’t think it’s bastard. It’s harder to balance and town should obviously be compensated for a role like Yakuza. If town is not then it’s just the mods fault. Scum have the power of being informed. Town doesn’t need to be informed

I mean common sense just says mods should warn their players. You don’t need any enforcement of this from any site mods, however. If someone keep making bad games, people here are gonna stop playing their games.

I don’t think alignment changing roles like Yakuzas are OP and tailors can be swingy sure but if that’s their only role it removes some power. A tailor can’t roleblock or lawyer or whatever which makes its only utility manipulation. Problem is that players try to scum hunt without using behavior and rely on town confirming players with town roles so much, which is why these roles are considered bastard because players are lazy.

I mean common sense just says mods should warn their players. You don’t need any enforcement of this from any site mods, however. If someone keep making bad games, people here are gonna stop playing their games.

What if the mod at the top of the mod queue has such a bad reputation that nobody wants to play their game? Does the next mod post signups while leaving the current one high and dry?

Yeah pretty much.

Usually when someone gets skipped over, it’s due to them being inactive… but if no one’s signing up, then yeah.

Cant remember the last time the community did this

if no one’s signing up, then yeah.

Cant remember the last time the community did this

Well, it's happening now. But just because people are burned out on mafia.

Well that doesn’t mean Thoth will be skipped over

Oh I thought you meant the last time people weren't signing up.

Should bastard mechanics be disclosed? I would say yes.

In favor of this sites thing for having nonstop closed setups I think it would be best disclosed in categories.

Break it down something like-

Bastard 1- Mod results may be false because mechanics change them. Things like Tailors or Janitors may exist but were decided pre-game

Bastard 2- OoO may not exist and may be made up on the fly as the host does the game. While there is not an intent to manipulate the game as it goes on the potential exists. Insane modifiers or mechanics may exist on roles that reverse their result

Bastard 3- Your win condition may be changed with functions like a cult or blackmailer placing obligations upon your slot that were decided pre-game

Bastard 4- Core facts of the game such as win conditions or mechanics may flatly be a lie but are decided pre-game

Bastard 5- The host will directly impact and influence the game as they desire after the game has started

Something like this could be healthy to be disclosed. Could probably refine such a list quite a bit as well.

I personally think Bastard factors should always be revealed and games must have an OoO prior to starting. I do feel that the majority of games here people make up their own OoO as they go which is kinda bullshit.