Bastard games

Given that I'm much less experienced than most players here, let alone on MafiaScum or MafiaUniverse, my opinions might not be worth much, but I'll give them anyway.

I disagree that alignment-changing roles are necessarily bastard. They're definitely not bastard if the possibility of alignment change is publicly announced by the start of the game. I'm used to playing with cults and recruiters because those are common in my Discord playgroup, and I'm not familiar with the gameplay cultures of MS/MU, but I'm guessing that they consider these bastard because their metagames evolve over geologic time and cults were seen as against the spirit of Mafia in decades past.

Scum editing role flips, i.e., Tailor, is borderline bastard. The problem with requiring games with this to be declared bastard is that announcing its existence makes it much weaker.

Directly lying in role PMs is definitely bastard. Hidden mechanics, which my upcoming Culture game will have, are not always bastard. I wouldn't call it bastard if someone had a hidden Bulletproof, but a hidden Paranoid Gun Owner is 100% bastard. I do think it would be bastard for role flips to not reveal all hidden mechanics.

My tentative proposal is that we compile two lists of bastard mechanics: ones that are totally bastard, like outright lies in role PMs; and ones that are kinda-bastard, like cults and Tailor. These lists might never be comprehensive, nor should they aim to be. Moderators can use the lists to decide whether their game is not bastard, kinda-bastard, or totally bastard, with games being classified by their most bastardy element. Mods can declare their game as any level of bastard or say nothing. Whether players should refuse to play in games where the mods do not reveal the bastardization quotient is something I think we can figure out over time.

Fake flips are 1000% bastard, except for Tailor, which is borderline. I thought I mentioned this, but forgot.

I don't see how anyone can consider recruiters or cults on par with being told your role is X when it's actually Y.

What’s stopping mods from just putting general disclaimer in all games that affiliation changing roles could exist and just never putting them in

Sounds like a bastard thing to do.

I don’t think it’s bastard. It’s harder to balance and town should obviously be compensated for a role like Yakuza. If town is not then it’s just the mods fault. Scum have the power of being informed. Town doesn’t need to be informed

I mean common sense just says mods should warn their players. You don’t need any enforcement of this from any site mods, however. If someone keep making bad games, people here are gonna stop playing their games.

I don’t think alignment changing roles like Yakuzas are OP and tailors can be swingy sure but if that’s their only role it removes some power. A tailor can’t roleblock or lawyer or whatever which makes its only utility manipulation. Problem is that players try to scum hunt without using behavior and rely on town confirming players with town roles so much, which is why these roles are considered bastard because players are lazy.

I mean common sense just says mods should warn their players. You don’t need any enforcement of this from any site mods, however. If someone keep making bad games, people here are gonna stop playing their games.

What if the mod at the top of the mod queue has such a bad reputation that nobody wants to play their game? Does the next mod post signups while leaving the current one high and dry?

Yeah pretty much.

Usually when someone gets skipped over, it’s due to them being inactive… but if no one’s signing up, then yeah.

Cant remember the last time the community did this

if no one’s signing up, then yeah.

Cant remember the last time the community did this

Well, it's happening now. But just because people are burned out on mafia.

Well that doesn’t mean Thoth will be skipped over

Oh I thought you meant the last time people weren't signing up.

Should bastard mechanics be disclosed? I would say yes.

In favor of this sites thing for having nonstop closed setups I think it would be best disclosed in categories.

Break it down something like-

Bastard 1- Mod results may be false because mechanics change them. Things like Tailors or Janitors may exist but were decided pre-game

Bastard 2- OoO may not exist and may be made up on the fly as the host does the game. While there is not an intent to manipulate the game as it goes on the potential exists. Insane modifiers or mechanics may exist on roles that reverse their result

Bastard 3- Your win condition may be changed with functions like a cult or blackmailer placing obligations upon your slot that were decided pre-game

Bastard 4- Core facts of the game such as win conditions or mechanics may flatly be a lie but are decided pre-game

Bastard 5- The host will directly impact and influence the game as they desire after the game has started

Something like this could be healthy to be disclosed. Could probably refine such a list quite a bit as well.

I personally think Bastard factors should always be revealed and games must have an OoO prior to starting. I do feel that the majority of games here people make up their own OoO as they go which is kinda bullshit.

Kinda want to bump this thread and restart the discussion after previous game using a blackmailer mechanic.

Alignment changing roles are not in themselves bastard, just difficult to balance.

I think that having the expectation that alignments never change is not warranted, and depends heavily on site meta. It has never been our site meta to have locked-in alignments.

I think the same goes for roles which alter or otherwise manipulate communication from the mods, especially public communication. I think we all accept that role results are subject to manipulation, while it's generally the opinion that things like flips and mod player confirmations should be sacrosanct. I think its more sensible for a mod to specifically say that their games may include such roles, otherwise it gives established players an advantage because they would know host metas - i.e. that Luna includes them but I never do. A new player should not be required to research mod metas to be competitive. That doesn’t mean that they should have to specify that it exists in this particular game, just that its a possibilty that players should be aware of. While this can weaken the usefulness of such a role if it does exist, it also allows the scum team to introduce doubt in mod communications when they know there is no reason for such doubt to exist.

One idea I did have once is for a TP that could modify flips and sow general chaos, it's the only time I was tempted to use this mechanic lol.

Mods should straight up not lie in PMs ever. The possibility of flavored roles (paranoid, insane) should always be disclosed as well. Bastard to me is also about balance and can be a spectrum. I think much more games are accidentally bastard than intentionally.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 05/10/2025 at 7:02 (post #1)

Over the past few games several mechanics would have been deemed bastard on sites like MS and MU. The question I want to propose is whether or not a game mod should warn players in advanced if bastard mechanics exist. Mechanics include:

1. Alignment changing roles like cults or recruiters
2. Games where the moderator lies to people in their role PMs
3. Games where moderators give fake flips
4. Games where scum team can edit a flip PM to throw off town

Many of these elements can be fun to play with, but not all players want to play in games with bastard mechanics.

On DebateCraft how should moderators inform players of bastard mechanics?

People should be required to disclose if a setup is bastard IMO

on that note my definition of bastard is quite different, if multiples of a power role exist in a game I would not consider that bastard. Similarly i dont think having hidden mechanics about your role that you are not privy to is bastard.

Cults are most certainly not bastard, just annoying as hell.

Originally Posted by Kohai on 18/10/2026 at 4:26 (post #16)

Kinda want to bump this thread and restart the discussion after previous game using a blackmailer mechanic.

Silencer isnt bastard, pure Blackmailer that can make demands of players is 100% bastard (if not announced before hand).