OGI & Angleshooting: A treaties on game integrity

Started by Kohai

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#1 •••

Over the past several games, there have been issues with OGI / Angleshooting and other types of behavior. We have gotten several new players and we want to keep this momentum going. That said, if we want to keep expanding, then I do believe some of our norms need to change epecially with OGI / Angleshooting as this has been a big point of criticism from newer players as well as myself. 

As most of you all know my modding philosophy, especially with mafia, tends to be more on the stringent side. When it comes to modding a mafia game, there is nothing I care about more than game integrity. In order to grow our mafia community I believe our site meta needs to change slightly. 

OGI / Out of Game Information

TLDR: no one should ever post anything that isn't about the game that a second player could reasonably make an alignment read based on. Period. 

OGI is extremely disruptive to a mafia game because it gives another player an unfair advantage and ultimately will harm the reputation of our site as our site grows and more outside people look into our games and consider joining. 

Sometimes OGI reads are bound to happen. This is inevitable. What is preventable is presenting those OGI reads to the thread. Instead of stating “I think player x is town because of an OGI issues” it is better to try and fabricate or find an in-game reason to support that read. 

Examples of what I think are acceptable: 

  1. Player x is posting a lot in mason / neighbor chat but can’t be bothered to post in the thread and wasn’t around to lynch in EOD. This gives me scummy vibes 
  2. Meta (obviously): Player x tends to do y as scum and he’s doing y in this game; ergo, he is probably scum. 

Examples of what I think is not acceptable

  1. I have an OGI read that player x is {alignment}
  2. Mentioning things happening in unrelated discord, debates, or forums (ie “Kohai is acting drunk in this game but just wrote a coherent debate argument”, “Player x is talking a lot in our discord but is avoiding posting in this game.”) 

Angleshooting 

Angleshooting is something I find to be even worse than OGI. Angleshooting is defined as doing things, or applying rules, in ways that they were not intended in order to gain an advantage. OGI is one example of angelshooting, but I’ve seen far worse things than that such as players directly quoting their win condition or editing and deleting their posts. In my opinion, this is never acceptable. 

Conclusion

Compared to other mafia spaces, our site has a unique meta. In many ways I think our meta is better, but in many ways it is worse. If we want to grow our community then eliminating, or at least significantly reducing, OGI and angleshooting is paramount to improving the health of our community. 

That said, every game mod has the power to create and enforce their own rule set as they see fit. On our site, mafia has always been its own self-contained section with unique rulesets.

Note: As long as I’ve been around the moderator team has never made an action based on something that happened in a mafia game. Unless there is some form of extreme rule violation that happens in a game I intend on keeping it that way. 


Edit comment

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

#2 •••
--> @Kohai
What is preventable is presenting those OGI reads to the thread. Instead of stating “I think player x is town because of an OGI issues” it is better to try and fabricate or find an in-game reason to support that read.

If I have ever been okay with OGI, it was only because this was the alternative and I never even considered that people would be okay with building a facade around OGI. Is this the standard suggestion on the big mafia sites?

Edit post

Forum signatures are bullshit. Nobody wants to waste their time and bandwidth reading something they have read 29,998,559,671,349 times before.

#3 •••
--> @Thoth


Thoth wrote:
What is preventable is presenting those OGI reads to the thread. Instead of stating “I think player x is town because of an OGI issues” it is better to try and fabricate or find an in-game reason to support that read.
If I have ever been okay with OGI, it was only because this was the alternative and I never even considered that people would be okay with building a facade around OGI. Is this the standard suggestion on the big mafia sites?

Yes.

Edit post

"Kohai, your entrance to the thread was legendary, you had a solve and a winning PoE right when you showed up, super impressive stuff, even more so considering it wasn't even your objective!!" - Zrein

#4 •••

Agree OGI is an issue and should be avoided if possible. Theres gonna be a rare few instances that are hard to ignore but player behavior analysis should always be a reason to lynch someone or town confirm them at the end of the day.

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Wylted is gay

#5 •••

Also I agree with Thoth I am not going to blatantly ignore it or fabricate a read but I will take it with a grain of salt alongside behavioral evidence. There is just as much evidence where OGI has led to mislynches so it should naturally be taken lightly

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Wylted is gay

#6 •••

Mikal 100% lied about his OGI stuff with me and Lunatic. It shouldn’t factor into anyone’s reads and shouldn’t be used. If people want to lie about then force them to point to truly behavioral tells. When Mikal told me about his OGI on Kohai/Thoth, it was irrelevant to me

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#7 •••

I would like to preface this saying I am not going after a specific issue that happened on this site or in a game. I would just like to push the point being made.


I would question if there is a difference between OGI and lying about OGI in some respects.


So lets say I hard claim that X player is talking to me in DM's while being inactive in game. True or not- We now have out of game information to deal with right?


Or lets say I claim the host told me X when they told me Y. I have now made the host an involved participant in a conflict and forced them to consider what they say which will impact the game one way or the other because of information outside of what a player was given (OGI)


Did it matter if it was a lie or not? The impact is the same with players being forced to consider information they did not have either way. They are being given information from outside of the game which is the entire point.

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#8 •••
So lets say I hard claim that X player is talking to me in DM's while being inactive in game. True or not- We now have out of game information to deal with right?

This is something you can handle in game. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for someone to lie about this because the person can come back and say they were actually inactive, and that the person who made that claim is lying, therefor forcing a 1 v 1 scenario. Mafia generally try to avoid these unless they are in LYLO situations. If the person just doesn't make an appearance in the thread, its something that can be easily tested. You can message the inactive person (non game related of course) and if they don't respond, that could lead you to believe the person who made that claim was probably lying. Just not really a good OGI to use for strategic purposes.


Or lets say I claim the host told me X when they told me Y. I have now made the host an involved participant in a conflict and forced them to consider what they say which will impact the game one way or the other because of information outside of what a player was given (OGI)

This is annoying for a host, and I dealt with this particularly a lot in the last game. Ultimately I think the onus is on the host to not answer questions that could lead to conclusions people can draw from about others however. There should never really be any answers to questions unless it relates to your own specific role, or if it relates to how a flipped role could interact with your own role. I made the mistake of answering questions about game mechanics to players asking me about my list in the OP of the last game, and it bit me in the butt and ended up with Kohai hallucinating a different answer from me than others got from me. Ultimately the slip was on kohai, but that situation just wouldn't have even happened if I took a hard line stance against answering frivelous questions like that to begin with. If I had never answered any ones questions about that, it would have saved town a mislynch. I don't think me answering that question even really helped anyone with anything. Nobody needed to know whether scum was given a list of things they could put in, or if they made it up themselves. Kind of kicking myself for even answering that one lol.

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Wylted is gay

#9 •••
--> @Helz

For the record not really disagreeing with you entirely, I think OGI kind of sucks. I just am kind of against heavy rule enforcement. Not just in mafia, with everything. At the end of the day were all here to have fun and play a game. I wish people wouldn't rely on it so heavily, but I also don't want to see people get modkilled for stuff players can handle. Also I don't expect all mods to use a heavy hand with this.


It would be nice if people just didn't rely heavily on OGI (looking at you mikal), but we can choose to ignore it as well. Maybe we call people out for being stupid for using it enough we can bully them out of using it lol. jk jk

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Wylted is gay