Resolved: This house would legalize prostitution in the United States

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After 3 votes (1 tie) — 2 points ahead

Resolved: This house would legalize prostitution in the United States

 

Debate structure
Round 1. Con waives and pro presents opening statements    
Round 2-4: Rebuttals
Round 5: Con's closing statement pro waives this round. 

 

Round 1

1 of 5
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Kohai Administrator
Con #1

Per the rules I waive. 

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
Pro #2

In consideration of the Resolution: Resolved: This house would legalize prostitution in the United States


Note: I am arguing a position in this debate with which I personally disagree, so I either have no skin in the game, or I am entirely condomned. This is a personal challenge.


Thank you, RationalTheist, for this debate.


I Argument: There are a few reasons why legalization of prostitution would be beneficial to the U.S. 


I.a They are: 

I.a.1 Heightened economic growth.

I.a.2 More cultures, more sources of efactulating innovation.

I.a.3 In a society of waning devotion to religious principles, and an expanding attitude toward sexual experimentation, and resulting happy-ending satisfaction, we in the U.S. are aphrodisiacally stimulated to get it on.


I.b Forget your cares! "Join the holy orgy Kama Sutra everyone!"[1]


II Argument: Our economy could still use a leg-up in economic recovery, and it might as well start with the first private industry, ever.


II.a Spread the word: The U,S, is back, but we can now coin a now-common phrase to the purpose: a franchise arousal tariff for all visiting foreigners. Just the one stationary figure in an arousing web-video of people in the Rose Garden dancing and gyrating suggestively demonstrated he, the stationary one, was not up to the task.[2] This needed new presidential wood. The stationary was just not up to going down on all fours to be entered in a staged dog-pony soldier show competition. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ZqNOyLz2E



II.b We are reminded of the urgency of release imposed by W.B. Yeats, in his modified verse, "The Second Cumming:"


"And what rough beast, it's hour cum round at last,

Couches toward the House of Red to be boned."[3]


II.c All ribbing aside [and some ribs are in greater shape than others], let's face it: America, the Beautiful:


"Oh, beautiful for spacious eyes,

For Amber's waves of skin,

For supple mountains' majesty,

Above our fruited whim!

Oh, Erica! My Monica!

On thee we do our deed.

And crown thy good with hardened wood,

From seed to shining seed."[4]


III Argument: As a diverse nation of mixed cultures, and being a premier nation of innovation, sex-work is an area certainly due re-erection in its techniques in the U.S. 

More cultures, more sources of efactulating innovation.


III.a The U.S. is called a melting pot, and that is direct reference to the multiple cultures that have been, over centuries, drawn to America to make a home here, making the best of sharing our living rooms, dining rooms, and bedrooms with one another, which is nothing if not neighborhood fundraising. 


III.b We are truly a nation of immigrants, and we are, as the plaque on the base if the Statue of Liberty declares, "Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"[5] The lamp fixture, and the door, themselves, may, indeed, be golden, but the light is prostitating red.


III.c It behooves us, modern Americans, to recognize the wealth of knowledge had by representatives of our varied cultures, to bring the vital knowledge of expanded heights of consciousness achieved by our varied skills of bringing pleasure to the bone of the masses.


IV Argument: In a society-expanding attitude toward sexual experimentation, and resulting happy-ending satisfaction, we in the U.S. are aphrodisiacally stimulated to get it on.


IV.a No one doubts the decline of the second estate in America. It began in the 60s, at a time when the youth of America began to doubt government authority in the thick of the Vietnam war. People who once embraced the idea of a benevolent God who would not allow such suffering began to breakdown under the observable dismissal of the end of suffering. Result: people started a generations-long progress toward dismissal of religion as an essential element of U.S. life.[6]


IV.b In its place, we in the U.S. have bare-back ridden a wave of revolution that is centuries in the making with the specific aim to enhance both the female and male form to their best alluring, sexual advantage, emphasizing the upper body torso by use of the lace corset.[7] The effect, of course, leads directly to the ecstasy of la petite mort, as the French call it, "the little death," which is the culminating physical/mental orgasmic throw of abandon unto near loss of consciousness, so overwhelming is the experience. 


IV.cThis is actually a healthy, medically substantiated experience for both sexes which should not diminish even with advancing age.[8]


IV.d What better method have we than sexual professionals to guide the general public in this pursuit of better health? Do we not seek professionals of other disciplines? Why not, then, prostitution? What better way to stimulate our economic, innovative, and health-enhancing society? Therefore, THB the obvious answer to these dilemmas in the U.S. is the legalization of prostitution.


I pass R2 to Con.


========================================


R1 Sources:


[1] "Sodomy," from "Hair," Steve Curry, RCA Victor, NYC, 1968

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ZqNOyLz2E

[3] Modified by Pro from https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming

[4] original lyrics to the music of https://www.goodandbeautiful.com/blogs/education/america-the-beautiful-lyrics?srsltid=AfmBOopzPhzd-CEX8AC3NGrZ9A1H3Ydln-Of3R7wS6mHvXfx0ms3_7N0

[5] https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm

[6] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201708/overcoming-religious-sexual-shame

[7] https://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1122&context=sprinkle

[8] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20832160/


Round 2

2 of 5
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Kohai Administrator
Con #3

Thank you for accepting this debate! I must say I laughed out loud while I was reading those arguments. I hope this is a fun and enjoyable debate. 


Let’s get down to business and to the bottom of the resolution. I negate the resolution: Prostitution should be legalized in the United States. 


Value premise: Harm reduction

Criterion: Reducing exploitation and violence


The value premise I wish to present in this debate is the value of harm reduction. Harm reduction is not merely the reduction in crimes like trafficking and sexual violence but also improvement of human dignity and bringing forth a society where all people have inherent self worth.


C1: Legalization of Prostitution increases trafficking 


When prostitution is legalized there is an increase in demand. However, there are not enough people who are able to supply the demand. When you can’t meet the demand sellers turn to trafficking to keep up with the new load of demand. 


Evidence A: Poland 


Prostitution is legalized in Poland and is one of the top destinations for traffickers. A 2024 UN Report found the following:


Poland remains a country of origin, transit and destination of victims of trafficking, with women and children13 subjected to forced labour for sexual exploitation. Support and protection for victims of trafficking is provided by the National Intervention and Consultation Centre for Victims of Human Trafficking (Krajowe Centrum Interwencyjno-Konsultacyjne dla Ofiar Handlu Ludźmi). Led by non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and financed by the Ministry of the Interior and Administration, it is subject to an annual open tender in accordance with article 13 of the act of 24 April 2003 on public benefit activities and voluntary work for NGOs. The police have been responsible for implementing the national action plan against trafficking in human beings since the first action plan in 2003. 26. Despite numerous requests, the Special Rapporteur was unable to obtain detail 


Evidence B: Netherlands


In 2000 the Netherlands legalized brothels hoping to reduce trafficking and make sex work safer. However, A 2014 paper found the following [2]:


The main conclusion is that the screening of brothel owners and the monitoring of the compliance of licensing conditions do not create levels of transparency that enable sex trafficking to be exposed. The prostitution business retains many characteristics of an illegitimate market and the legalization and regulation of the prostitution sector has not driven out organized crime. On the contrary, fighting sex trafficking using the criminal justice system may even be harder in the legalized prostitution sector.


Evidence C: Nevada


On average over 5,000 people are sold in Nevada for sex each month [3]. This is about 166-200 people per day. In addition most of the Lyon County Sheriff’s office concluded in 2018 [4]:


“the discovery of U.S. immigration law violations in our legal brothel system is extremely alarming. The ability to coerce, exploit, and traffic non-U.S. citizens into Lyon County by foreign criminal enterprises is difficult to detect and deter.” Immigrants trafficked to Nevada and in Nevada brothels are victimized without any way to escape.” 


C2: Legalizing Prostitution Increases Violence against Women


Statistically those who are prostitutes enter prostitution because of poverty, homelessness, trafficking, and drug addiction [5]. When a person is bought for sex they are oftentimes unable to back out or withdraw consent. Awaken Justice notes: 


48.1 percent of the women living in Nevada have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner. Studies show that 71 percent of prostituted women are physically assaulted on the job; 68 percent experience post-traumatic stress at the same levels as combat veterans and victims of torture; and 89 percent wish to escape prostitution. In 2017, the Violence Policy Center ranked Nevada second across the nation in the rate of women murdered by men.


Survivors often note that they were pressured by the brothel owners and pimps they worked. Brook Axtel, a survivor who was sexually trafficked starting at the age of 7 wrote [7]:


The horror can’t be put into words, neither can the brothels I was taken to or the men and women I was forced to service. Not only did I see someone very close to me murdered, but police officers were some of my buyers and multiple times I was handcuffed, raped, and told that if I told anyone I would be put in jail... the message that was branded on my heart was the idea that I had no worth, I was shameful, and all I was good for was sex.


In April 2023 survivor Desiree D. Demos testified in front of the Maine legislation [8] 


Throughout my many years in the sex trade, I have been raped, repeatedly beaten, kidnapped, held hostage, and propelled into a dark hole of substance use and mental health disorders. This is the daily reality of the majority of those trapped in the sex trade. We need to systematically remove stigmatizing language used towards survivors so that their exploitation does not continue to define their lives. ‘Prostitute’ implies a choice, whereas ‘Exploitation’ is an act of violence that happened to the survivor.


Conclusion


The duty of government is to protect the vulnerable. Legalizing prostitution does the exact opposite. It sends a message that women are nothing but sex objects and significantly increases violence against women. 


Sources


Please see the comment section for my round 1 sources as I do not have enough space for all of the sources

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
Pro #4

In consideration of the Resolve: Resolved: This house would legalize prostitution in the United States


V Rebuttal: Pro R2: "C.1 legalization of prostitution increases trafficking"


V.a Pro cites 3 countries as examples of the increased trafficking claim. Of them, only the U.S. is included in the Resolve. Therefore, I declare the others, Poland and the Netherlands, as Resolve creep, and failure to disprove the Resolve. Further, I dismiss all arguments made for these 2 countries, and will address only arguments made for the U.S.


V.a.1 Pro's [R2 [3]] source does a shallow job of defining a clear distinction between sex work [prostitution] and sex trafficking, and the two are not synonymous. Prostitution is consensual sexual contact as a commodity for trade which, in 7 counties of Nevada of less than 700,000 population, is legal.[9] Sex trafficking is sex by involuntary coercion, and typically involves minors with whom sexual contact is a nationwide crime, and should be, plus, typically, transport, and usual enslavement of the minors in such practice.[9,10] I do not discount that adults are also trafficked.


V.b Only 10% of prostitution in Nevada is legal, in 7 of the 17 counties of NV, in which there are approx. 200 prostitutes working in 21 legal brothels as of 2021[11]. These women have regular medical check-ups, are registered with the local sheriff's office, pay income tax, report earnings to the IRS, and condoms are required for intercourse [oral, or otherwise].[11]. About 10% are men.[11] 


V.b.1 90% of prostitution in NV is illegal, virtually all in Las Vegas [Clark County] which is not one of the 7 legal counties.


V.c Since legal prostitution and sex trafficking are two separate activities altogether, to suggest that both cause increase in crime is disingenuous. "Of the studies that indicated that legalization or decriminalization of sex work does not necessarily lead to an increase in crime, most found decreases in rape offenses, while other impacts included improvements in the safety of sex workers and a decrease in drug-related crime."[11]


VI Rebuttal: Pro R2: "C2: Legalizing Prostitution Increases Violence against Women"


VI.a Pro's C.2 argument begins with a story by a Jessica Dillow Crisp, a tragic story to be sure, but Jessica's story begins at 7 years of age, sexually abused by family members who then sold her into sex trafficking/slavery. This is a repeat of the matter rebutted in §V.a.1, above, an entirely separate matter than typical prostitution, as demonstrated further in V.a.1 through V.c, and should not be confused with professional adult women conducting legal prostitution today in 7 counties in NV. Pro's own source, [R2, [5]] demonstrates a graph indicating the various causes of sex work, indicating that sex trafficking such as the Crisp example is only 3% of the total. I do not argue that 3% is not an issue, but it is a minuscule attempt to exemplify negating the Resolve. I should think sex trafficking, illegal in every State, and an affirmed atrocity, ought to rise to a higher percentage of criminal activity to prove against the superiority of an entirely different matter: legal prostitution. 


VI.b Pro's R2 [5] source demonstrates a win for Con: the sourced article's graph indicates that 5+ of 10 "causes of prostitution," 1 poverty, 4 financial debt / hardship /widowed, divorced , 7 limited education. [therefore lower wages], 9 thirst for money, and 10 unemployment, amounting to 79% of the Pro-alleged negative "causes of prostitution" in Pro's R2 [5] source. Pro's R2 demonstrates that his R2, C.2 argument fails.


VII Rebuttal: Pro R2: My conclusion: Pro, failure to negate Resolve


VII.a Within Pro's own R2 argument of blending sex trafficking with legal prostitution as proof of his BoP are the seeds of failure of the argument. I've demonstrated how 79% of his issues are resolved by legalizing prostitution in the U.S.


VIII Argument: MAFA


VIII.a MAFA: If you don't know the acronym [it's coined], y'all haven't been paying attention; the "coin" being a four-letter word with English etymology from the 16th century.[12]


VIII.a.1 Without making it a morality/religious argument, which is entirely subjective, after all, not logical,"Why is it immoral to be paid for an act that is perfectly legal if done for free"[13] even out of wedlock?


VIII.b "Suppress prostitution, and capricious lusts will overthrow society."[14] Are you surprised that is a direct quote from as revered a religious figure as Saint Augustine?


VIII.c Pre-legalized prostitution come-on: "If you want to put your poker in my smoker, fork it over, John." That's just crass. W.B. Yeats once phrased it: "...the frog-spawn of a ditch."[15]


VIII.d Legalized prostitution oral come-on: "If you want me to polish your tool, tickle my fancy."[16] Now, that's not just acceptable language, but refined metaphor.


I pass R3 to Pro, which in R3 return to me, I will, by rule, waive. Thank you, RationalTheist, for a stimulating debate. To readers/voters: Please vote Con.


R2 Sources:


[9] https://amarkfoundation.org/reports/when-prostitution-sex-work-is-legalized-what-happens-to-crime-rates/#:~:text=In Nevada, prostitution is permitted,the means to exit prostitution.

[10] https://www.ed.gov/teaching-and-administration/supporting-students/resources-combatting-human-trafficking-americas-schools

[11] https://amarkfoundation.org/reports/when-prostitution-sex-work-is-legalized-what-happens-to-crime-rates/#:~:text=In Nevada, prostitution is permitted, the means to exit prostitution.

[12] https://qz.com/501468/a-historian-thinks-hes-pinpointed-the-oldest-known-use-of-the-f-word

[13] Gloria Alred, https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1170048

[14] Saint Augustine, https://scholars.carroll.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/48a7352f-6a84-45d5-b51a-962922408932/content

[15] W.B. Yeats, "A Dialogue of Self and Soul", https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43294/a-dialogue-of-self-and-soul

[16] fauxlaw origin for this debate 


Round 3

3 of 5
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Kohai Administrator
Con #5

Thank you, fauxlaw, for this engaging debate. In this round I will only address my opponent's main opening arguments. I will save my defense for the next round.


I. For a better economy keep your legs closed!


My opponent argues that legalizing prostitution will result in more tax revenue and will help improve the economy.


First, even if I concede the point that there is economic benefits on legalization and it can increase tax revenue it doesn't follow that prostitution should be legalized, especially if it can be shown that prostitution has significant net harms such as an increase in trafficking. Simply put: Money should not be a fact in policy decisions about what to criminalize or legalize.


Second, economic benefits depend on how legalization is done. Legalization alone does not guarantee an increase in tax revenue and a better economy. When prostitution is legalized you need to take into account the amount of money it will cost to regulate and enforce as well as the increase in administrative cost. In addition, when prostitution is legalized there illegal prostitution still far outweighs the legal prostitution. In Nevada legal brothels generate about 75 million in revenue while illegal prostitution brings in about 5 billion [1]. It gets even worse on the county level. In Lyon County, for example, legalization only brings in 400,000-500,000 [2]


2. Immigration


I'm not sure what my opponent is talking about here, but immigrants in prostitution are significantly more likely than not to be trafficking victims compared to non-immigrant prostitutes [3, 4, 5]


3. Society


I'm not quite sure what my opponent is arguing here. I agree that sex is healthy, but it does not follow that all sex is good. None of my opponent's sources were relevant to the topic.


Conclusion


My arguments top my opponents. As my opponent says:

Please vote Con.


Sources

1. https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/if-nevadans-are-serious-about-ending-sex-trafficking-they-must-abolish-legal-prostitution?utm_source=chatgpt.com

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

3. https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking/what-is-human-trafficking

4. https://achievece.com/blog/how-does-human-trafficking-relate-to-immigrants-and-refugees

5. https://www.congress.gov/crs_external_products/R/PDF/R47211/R47211.4.pdf

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
Pro #6

Note: both my R1 and R2 contained reference to my opponent as Pro and me as Con. Both references are erroneous and confusing as my Comment #15 described. I blame my pain medication in use before and after my recent knee surgery as it has a seriously confusing side effect. Note: I AM PRO. I do not endorse Con but by error, and, in all other respects, acknowledge his valued friendship.


In consideration of the Resolution: Resolved: This house would legalize prostitution in the United States


IX Rebuttal Con R3: "For a better economy keep your legs closed"


IX.a Con's allegation is that legal prostitution hinders rather than helps the economy, and points to "When prostitution is legalized you need to take into account the amount of money it will cost to regulate and enforce as well as the increase in administrative cost." How, exactly, is it necessary to "regulate and enforce" a legal business activity? Answer: it isn't necessary.


IX.a.1 No, this is the wrong approach. The correct approach is police-business partnership[17], such as happens in the 7 counties of Nevada wherein prostitution is statutorily legal. See my R2, §V.b & source [11]. 


IX.a.2 Note that Con's argument goes directly to illegal prostitution in Nevada, which population, as of 2022, amounts to 5,000 known illegal prostitutes. Legal prostitutes in 7 counties number only 200. See my R2, §V.b & source [11], or, 4% the number of illegal prostitutes, who do require Con's stated regulation and enforcement costs to taxpayers of NV. They, the illegal prostitutes are the drain on NV's economic resources.


IX.a.2.1 Then Con argues, again, the defeated sex trafficking issue brought up in his R1 & R2, but continues to ignore that he blends legal prostitution with sex trafficking, using as his only graphic example in R2, Jessica Dillow Crisp, who was a 7-year-old girl, which is not a legitimate example of legal prostitution, allowed only to 18 years of age, minimum, and the reference to a minor is, therefore, off-topic. I do not argue that sex trafficking occurs, and is a heinous crime, but legal-aged women are at risk to be subjected to sex trafficking whether or not they are legal prostitutes, noted in my R2, §VI.a rebuttal.


IX.a.3 Then, Con admits, by his R3 source #1, "In Nevada legal brothels generate about 75 million in revenue," which is about $375,000 per legal prostitute. How is that a bad thing? How many other legal employment opportunities in NV generate as much, per capita? Answer: The Nevada per capita revenue production as of 2022 is $6,200 [rounded up].[18]


X Rebuttal Con R3: "Immigration"


X.a Con's confusion about my mention of "immigration" is partly because I never said "immigration." I said in my R1, §III, and all subs, the U.S. was a melting pot, "...direct reference to the multiple cultures that have been, over centuries, drawn to America..." I made the point that any industry, including legal sex work, is helped by infusion of multicultural professional experience.


XI Rebuttal Con R3: "Society"


XI.a Con's confusion about my mention of "society" may be because I cited a source so far historically removed from what the source said to believe he said it. The citation [my R2, §VIII.b, source [14]] "Suppress prostitution, and capricious lusts will overthrow society" by St. Augustine, a highly respected and quoted Christian icon of the 4th century.


XII Argument: Heightened physical and mental health by active sexual activity


XII.a "'All women deserve to enjoy a healthy sexual life,' says Nicole Cirino, M.D., associate professor of psychiatry at OHSU's Center for Women's Health. "Studies have shown that sex is extremely beneficial to our health. Sex activates a variety of neurotransmitters that impact not only [the brain] but several other organs in our bodies."[19, both quotes]


XII.a.1 Here is a partial list of direct health benefits of sexual activity to women:[19]

lower blood pressure increased libido

better immune system natural pain relief

lower risk of heart disease better sleep

improved self-esteem stress reduction

decreased depression, anxiety


XII.a.1.A One negative to the above benefits: Masturbation, alone, misses the excretion of valuable oxytocin and other healthful hormones.[19]


XII.a.2 Both men and women as customers of legal prostitution would benefit to all the above excepting §XII.a.1.A while helping to reduce exposure to STD's, contribution to sex trafficking, and other criminal activity associated with illegal prostitution. In addition, men share an added benefit of lowering risk of prostate cancer.[20]


XIII. Argument: How to properly greet a legal prostitute


XIII.a Using the example of a car we choose to drive, we rationally conclude that a Chevy will likely successfully transport us where we need to go, A-to-B, but we may still prize the allure of luxury and engineering prowess of an Aston Martin Vantage S. This may be an extreme example, but the point is made in comparison to our approach, and greeting to a legal prostitute. Arrive from A-to-B, refreshed, envigorated, thrilled, and satisfied. To an illegal, one might say, "Hey, bitch..." and she may even appreciate the crass greeting but may not give any hint of personality. But, with a legal, brief companion, according to them[21], "Hello" is appreciated and acceptable. Respectable. 


I pass R4 to Con, and my thanks to potential voters.

R3 Sources:


[17] https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/tool-guides-partnering-businesses-address-public-safety-problems-page-4

[18] https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-local-tax-collections-per-capita/#:~:text=Nevada imposes substantial excise taxes, on which they're imposed.


[19] https://www.ohsu.edu/womens-health/benefits-healthy-sex-life

[20] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/316954#reducing-prostate-cancer-risk

[21] https://www.thevelvetrooms.com/en/blog/how-should-you-address-her#:~:text=Whereas%20if%20you%20say%20to%20your%20court%20to%20begin%20with.


Round 4

4 of 5
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Kohai Administrator
Con #7

Thank you, Fauxlaw, for this debate. In this round I'll be defending my opening statements only

Introduction

Value Premise / Criterion My value premise and criterion has gone unchallenged. Therefore, as this is an LD style debate, I urge the voters to weigh this debate using the VP of harm reduction and the criterion for reducing crime and improving human dignity.

C1: Increase Trafficking

My opponent dismisses the evidence provided from the international examples I gave due to this being outside the United States. I strongly disagree that this evidence should be dismissed. When the government is considering a change to a policy the government should look to international examples to see the impact that that policy had. In this case, if the government thinks it should legalize prostitution, then we should look to see what effect. prostitution legalization had on other countries.

I agree that sex work and sex trafficking are not synonymous. That was not my argument. My argument is that when prostitution is legalized real world data shows that trafficking is increased. Real world evidence shows that 40% of prostitutes were commercial sex trade, suffered sexual violence, and are 60 to 100 times more likely to be murdered [1]. Prostitution is not just another job. A 2006 paper put this grim data into perspective [2]:

  1. 2.7 $% of female murder victims from 1982-2000 were prostitutes.
  2. Most prostitutes who were murdered were murdered by their clients.
  3. Serial killers accounted for 35% of these murders

Even within legal brothels, police often fail to distinguish between consensual prostitution and trafficking. A 2018 review showed 34% of women in legal brothels in Nevada showed evidence of trafficking. [3]

C2: Violence Against Women

My opponent dismisses the story of Jessica Dillow Crisp because this involves a minor; however, this completely ignored the link that prostitution is not a victimless crime. About 25-40% of prostitutes entered the sex trade before the age of 18 [4]. The link between prostitution and trafficked minors are intertwined. You cannot ignore the evidence connecting trafficking of minors and prostitution.

Argument: MAFA

This argument inspired me to generate this:

Shamelessly created through ChatGPT.

  1. The state has a moral obligation to protect its citizens from harm and to prevent violence against women. Prostitution is not just a money exchange for a service.
  2. I'll counter Augustin with the words of Jesus: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell (Matthew 5:29).

Conclusion

If you want to MAFA, we should do it in a dignifying way. If you have to pay for sex, then obviously it's because you're a fairly poor negotiator. I recommend reading The Art of the Deal to get better at negotia....oh wait.


Sources.

1 https://prostitutionresearch.com/quick-facts/

2. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6777136_Extent_Trends_and_Perpetrators_of_Prostitution-Related_Homicide_in_the_United_States

3. https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/sex-crimes/audit-finds-signs-of-human-trafficking-at-brothels-in-nevada-county/

4. See source 1

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
Pro #8

Note: I acknowledge this 4th round is my last for rebuttal [no new argument], and that I will waive R5. Thank you, RationalTheist, for a great debate.


IX Rebuttal: Con R4, C1: Increased trafficking v. harm prevention


IX.a Con argued that, "When the government is considering a change to a policy the government should look to international examples to see the impact that that policy had" which I rebutted in in my R2, §V.a as being outside the Resolve parameters since the Resolve identified only the U.S. as the feature country of debate. However, this statement in Con's R4 quoted above, even if it were inclusive to the Resolve, should assume we compare suitable international examples for a U.S. policy change, such as U.S.-wide legalization of prostitution.


IX.a.1 Tell me what other country having a presidential system/presidential republic without a prime minister[22], - and to what other government system should we be compared; a monarchy? - has our population of 340M[23]? A large population = difficult presidential system management. The answer to the posed question: no other country in the world has our system of federal government with our large population, or even close to it, according to sources [22] & [23]. Therefore, Con's use other countries to support his values system proposal fails by weight and topic.


IX.b Another failure of Con's values argument is that in previous rounds, Con used an under-age, 7 year-old girl as the exemplary for his values argument of harm, i.e. "sex trafficking" in countries with legalized prostitution, whereas my rebuttal clarified that while sex trafficking is a horrible crime, legalized prostitution would be in the U.S. only as of age 18, which in 47 states plus D.C., is the age of majority[24], eliminating all who are under age, so this rebuttal still holds for the 3 other states with younger ages of majority. Further, I argued that legalized prostitution nationwide should follow the regulated pattern developed by the 7 counties in NV where prostitution is legalized now, which includes law enforcement partnership and protection of legal prostitutes and that the majority of cases of violence against prostitutes affects illegal prostitutes in non-legal counties, especially Clark County [Las Vegas]. Also see my R2, §V.c, w/source [11].


IX.c Con argues, "Prostitution is not just another job." 2.7 % of female murder victims were prostitutes means >97% were not. 100% were murdered by other people. Serial killers did not murder 65% of murders. Where's the beef? Not in Con's small numbers.


X Rebuttal, Con R4, C2: Violence against women


X.a Again, Con attempts an argument that is cross-purposed. Con identifies "women" [age of majority], then uses the example of the 7 year-old girl. See my rebuttal, above, for clarification of who's who in this debate. Again, refer to the Resolve, which does not mention age as a criterion of legalization of prostitution, but, I made the argument in my R1 that the legalized line at age of majority is age 18. There are 47 states plus D.C. having the age of majority at 18. For legalized prostitution it would be the legal age in all states.


X.b Oh, careful, let me not pass by a brief argument in Con's R2 of a woman, Desiree Damos, a sex worker who was violently attacked. But she was in Maine, where prostitution is illegal, and therefore under no law enforcement protection nor cooperation.


X.c Con argues, "You cannot ignore the evidence connecting trafficking of minors and prostitution." No, you cannot, but only in states and counties that prohibit prostitution because there is no law enforcement protection nor cooperation even in 10 counties of NV, but my argument/rebuttal has not been for prohibition of legalized prostitution.


XI Rebuttal, Con R4, C3: MAFA


XI.a Con argues, "The state has a moral obligation to protect its citizens from harm and to prevent violence against women." And my rebuttal has been consistent: legalize prostitution nationwide as it is done in 7 counties in NV, with law enforcement protection and cooperation, and that goal is achieved. No, it will not, on its own, disrupt child sex trafficking. That burden is on law enforcement, as well, but when it comes to children, what happened to the responsibility of teaching proper child behavior and protection, providing that background where it belongs, with parents in the home to have children avoid talking to and associating with strangers, to not be alone on the streets after dark, etc.


XI.b. The hat: looks like an adult-size cap, and being a favored color red for the topic, is appropriately MAFA.


XI.c Con: "I'll counter Augustin[e] with the words of Jesus: 'If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell (Matthew 5:29).'"


XI.c.1 A curious citation when one is trying reduce violence. Further, this advice is clearly not to be taken literally, but is metaphoric, implying that there are greater concerns of an eternal nature than bodily injury should we trifle with sin. But this debate's Resolve of Con's creation does not concern itself with sin or forgiveness, but is a legal matter.


XI.c.2 Human dignity is as discussed in my R3, §XIII.a; "... with a legal, brief companion, according to them[21], 'Hello' is appreciated and acceptable. Respectable." Dignified. Further respect is given by payment for services rendered, just like buying a well-prepared meal at a restaurant, offering a good, generous tax-free tip to a caring and efficient, legal professional server, just as one should treat a caring, efficient, legal professional, legally protected prostitute.


Thank you.

 

R4 sources:

[22] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_system_of_government 

[23] https://populationmatters.org/news/2023/07/population-policies-that-work/

[24] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/age-of-majority-by-stat


Round 5

5 of 5
avatar
Kohai Administrator
Con #9

I was on vacation today and did not realize how little time I had left in this debate! I would like to thank fauxlaw for engaging in this debate and for the humorous innuendos. In this round I will simply write a concluding statement and will not present any new rebuttals nor any new arguments.

In this debate I opened up with the value premise of harm reduction and the criterion of reducing exploitation and violence. Given that my opponent never put forth a value premise and criteria of his own, which is vital in LD debates, I ask that voters use this premise and criteria to weigh this debate and use that to determine who won this debate.

We are asked in this debate whether or not the US should legalize prostitution. In this debate I presented two major arguments:

  1. Legalization would increase trafficking.
  2. Legalization would increase violence against women

I believe I have shown that this is the case and that prostitution legalization would do far more harm than good.

I thank fauxlaw for this funny and enjoyable debate. I hope he had as much fun as I did. I believe I can safely say that my arguments top my opponent's arguments (although I concede his humor and innuendos were far more clever than mine). With that, may this debate have a happy ending. Please vote con!


avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
Pro #10

Note: According to debate rules from the Debate Challenge/Description, I waive R5. 


Thank you, RationalTheist, for a great debate. Absolutely, I hope, as well, for a happy ending for all.


Readers, please vote Pro.


I tip my MAFA hat to the ladies...


New comment

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#32
--> @Kohai

thank you for a very enjoyable debate!

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#31
--> @Fruit_Inspector, @Leaning, @whiteflame

Thank you all for voting

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#30
--> @Fruit_Inspector

Please do!

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#29
--> @whiteflame

Thank you for the vote

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•••
#28

I should be able to get a vote on this as well before the time is up

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#27

Done reading it. Going to sit with this for a bit and write up my RFD later.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#26
--> @Kohai

Thanks. Working on it.

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#25
--> @whiteflame

reminder. 2 days left.

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whiteflame Global Moderator
•••
#24

I’ll work on this. Someone remind me in the last couple of days.

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#23
--> @Kohai

Yep, already have it noted. Thanks

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#22
--> @fauxlaw

Remember this is your final round. You must waive the next round

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Savant Administrator
•••
#21
--> @MikeLifts

test2 test3

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Savant Administrator
•••
#20

test test1

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Savant Administrator
•••
#19

test comment editing edit1 edit2

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#18
--> @fauxlaw

I knew you’d like it! I knew ChatGPT would have some utility in debates!

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#17
--> @Kohai

love the hat!!! MAFA!

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•••
#16

Prostitution should be legal. Freedom.

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#15

...and all readers and voters
I just realized, now clear-headed, that my posting of my R2 yesterday has a more critical error than my comment #14 related yesterday, and I blame myself, under the influence of oxycodone due to the extreme pain I occasionally suffer as a result of my recent surgery. Oxy is a great pain reliever, but has side effects that affect people differently. I fear its use due to its extreme tendency for people to become addicted to it, so I purposefully spread the dosage-rate I am allowed just to avoid the potential of addiction. That its a successful tactic for me, but the resulting side effect, for me, is stupidity. My entire R2, under the influence of oxy, made me revert to the belief in this debate that I am Con, since usually, initiators take the Pro position in a debate, but you, RationalTheist, have taken the Con position, and I know we discussed it prior to the beginning of the debate, but, my R2, composed under the influence of oxy, made me forget. Therefore, every reference to Pro in my R2 should be to Con. Good God, the is confusing! My apologies!

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#14
--> @Kohai

please ignore my trailing commentary regarding my waive oof R3. I was erroneously thinking this was a 3-round debate. I will, of course, present an R3 and R4 rebuttals, and waive R5. Sorry.

avatar
Kohai Administrator
•••
#13

Round 1 sources
Sources
1. https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issues/definitions-what-is-human-dignity/ 
2. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260493897_The_challenges_of_fighting_sex_trafficking_in_the_legalized_prostitution_market_of_the_Netherlands
3 https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/if-nevadans-are-serious-about-ending-sex-trafficking-they-must-abolish-legal-prostitution?utm_source=chatgpt.com 
4. https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/if-nevadans-are-serious-about-ending-sex-trafficking-they-must-abolish-legal-prostitution?utm_source=chatgpt.com 
5. https://iusw.org/10-causes-of-prostitution/ 
6. https://www.awakenjustice.org/is-prostitution-a-choice 
7. https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/jessa-dillow-crisp-i-remember-the-smells-the-sight/ 
8. https://legislature.maine.gov/testimony/resources/JUD20230411Demos133256328644114591.pdf 

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•••
#12
--> @fauxlaw, @Kohai

Hello!

As a corporation, I have no opinion on this matter.

-McDonaldsReal

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#11
--> @fauxlaw

Oh baby

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#10
--> @Kohai

I*'m orgasmic over being able to post in the argument field! Ho, ho, ho. Either early Christmas, or just pocket-happy.

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#9
--> @fauxlaw

OMG I am dying at your arguments. Leg up on the economy. OMG I am literally laughing out loud.

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#8
--> @fauxlaw

ROFL!!

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fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#7
--> @Kohai

Amen.
No, I guess, for now, that should be, "Ah...ah...ah.... eeeeeeeeeee!

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#6
--> @fauxlaw

That's the spirit! To be honest I really enjoy playing devil's advocate. Part of the fun of LD debates is getting assigned a random side and forced to argue that side even if you disagree with it.

avatar
fauxlaw Global Moderator
•••
#5
--> @Kohai

Yeah. After preparing an R1 argument from the Con position [i.e., against legalization in the US] I realize I made an error. I am always confused by an initiator in a debate taking the Con position. Damn! Oh, well, I have taken the opposing side of my personal opinion before, and I've now wasted two days of my allotted time, but, I will not concede. I'll take the Po side and pretend I never have and never would engage a prostitute, so I'm going to be flying blind. I will not post until first of next week. Still, thanks for the debate. Here goes nothing..

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Kohai Administrator
•••
#4
--> @fauxlaw

Also you are arguing for the resolution (that prostitution should be legalized). I am negating. I waive the first round and the first round is your opening statements.

avatar
Kohai Administrator
•••
#3
--> @fauxlaw

I'm looking forward to this debate! I'm actually surprised you'd be Pro on this subject. Warning: There is no way to preview arguments. As soon as you hit submit they will be submitted. This is something we are working on.

Leaning
Leaning Global Moderator
#3
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
Summery, due to Ah! 5 minutes left!
I'm conflicted on the issue, I lean towards Pro arguing better, but I've not finished rereading and reading sources.
I think Con could have done a better job with harm theory, not that it was a 'bad job, but Pro 'did have arguments for it, even if some maybe were indirect.
Pro also mitigated some of Cons arguments by arguing they were not too applicable such as the AH 1 minute!
Sorry, voting tie, though maybe would have voted Pro

Con Round 1 Kohai
Waived.

Pro Round 1 fauxlaw
Economy is the only argument I find 'personally convincing.

More culture, more sex,
Bah, I like current culture well enough,
Bah Hedonism appeal. (Though I 'am a hedonist)

Con Round 2 Kohai
Argues and sources harm,
Claims regulation does not provide needed amount of transparency.
Argues legalization makes the practice more common.

Pro Round 2 fauxlaw
I really don't see why other countries can't be compared.
In a time before fire, and some other country makes fire, and see's benefits,
Why shouldn't they be held as an example?

Pro makes argument that there is distinction between sex trafficking and prostitution.
"Only 10% of prostitution in Nevada is legal"
Huh, I'd think there'd be more, is there more illegal prostitution in Nevada than other American states as a result of legalized prostitution?
Not rhetorical, I don't know.

Pro makes decent argument on subjective morality, Buuuut I'd still rather blanket cover some subjective morality.
Still, Con does need to make a case for it maybe.
. . . Con 'is trying with harm argument, arguing it makes the act more common, theory being more normalized, more messed up situations as well, more illegal activities.
Maybe it's more common for parents to sell their kids, when people can sell themselves. Even if the selling of kids is illegal.
Also problem of gray area consent, coercion.

Con Round 3 Kohai
Questions the economic benefit due to regulation costs and such.
Con didn't make many arguments about morality and sex, also not many arguments about harm. Didn't 'seem a strong round.
Then again, probably has to do with debate structure in description.
Debate structure
Round 1. Con waives and pro presents opening statements
Round 2-4: Rebuttals
Round 5: Con's closing statement pro waives this round.

Pro Round 3 fauxlaw
Pro is right that Con needs 'prove illegal activity is increased with legalization.
Common history lot of people think of is alcohol. Hm, is illegal alcohol more and/or worse with it's legalization?
Eh, maybe more, but maybe not worse.
. . . Well. . . Worse illegally is gangsters guns and bombs, worse socially maybe is number of deaths, disease, dysfunctional families by legalization.

Pro argues economic profit is still economic profit.

Claims health benefits of sex.

Argues as he did earlier the value of STD testing in legal prostitution, which is somewhat lacking in illegal prostitution.

Con Round 4 Kohai
Makes arguments of validity of different country comparisons.
Argues illegal can follow legal.

"The state has a moral obligation to protect its citizens from harm and to prevent violence against women."
Yeah, but we're also country of the free, if people want to commit evil (To a degree) upon themselves, bit their choice and subjective maybe.
Course where are the limits?

Pro Round 4 fauxlaw
I disagree with Pro's argument that there can be 'no comparing other countries. At 'most one can argue comparison has limitations.

2.7 % doesn't sound that big a number, Con 'does need to put the number into 'perspective.
Compare it with some other job of equal population perhaps.

I think Pro is 'missing Cons point on illegal following legal.
But Con 'does make fair points on the legal being safe, though it's a bit flawed by not addressing Con's argument I think.

Con Round 5 Kohai
I think Pro kind of indirectly answered the harm argument.
By arguing Pros of legalizing prostitution and arguing against some harms Con argued would come about from legalized prostitution.

Pro Round 5 fauxlaw
Waived.

Sources
Con R1 Waived.
Pro R1, been nonsensical, or theatrical one might argue.
Con R2 Some good some flawed, as Pro argues illegal trafficking is different than prostitution. Con might have dug in more on proving illegal following legal as well as factualizing people being trapped or coerced into 'legal prostitution.
Hm, source 5 in round 2, Pro argues against due to 'causes of entry into prostitution, eh, I'm too convinced by Pro here.

Need compare maybe with other jobs.
. . . Hm, is there any horrible job people are trapped in, that we outlaw because it is horrible?
Coal mining or something? Well, maybe older coal mining was really bad, deadly, I don't know about modern coal mining. But it's not illegal.
Hm, kids having jobs, certain jobs, bit illegal.
AH! 5 minutes left!
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
Forgive me if this is choppy. My original vote was almost complete and didn't get saved, so I am having to retype it. I'll try to hammer out the main points:

From what I understand, an LD debate primarily uses a value premise, but not exclusively. I don't think we should just dismiss PRO's arguments on the basis that there was not a single, explicitly stated value premise. If CON wanted to strictly use an explicitly stated value premise for the entire debate, that probably should have been stated in the description. It might be noted that on the actual debate page (https://www.debatecraft.com/debates/d/1f/resolved-this-house-would-legalize-prostitution-in-the-united-states) - not just the general list of debates - there is no mention of "Lincoln-Douglas" or "LD" until Round 4 of the debate. I also see economic prosperity as a general principle, but perhaps I am mistaken on this whole matter? Feel free to comment...

In Round 2, I don't think PRO's outright dismissal of the international examples was completely justified. However, CON did little to attempt a counter and did not try to explain why those examples were relevant to the U.S. and should be considered. Therefore, I placed little weight on them.

PRO making a distinction between legal and illegal prostitution went a long way in dismantling CON's argument. This put CON into a position of having to either justify that the statistics regarding prostitution and violence can be equally applied to legal and illegal prostitution, or else provide entirely new statistics that strictly applied to legal prostitution. 

There were two main problems I saw with CON's arguments. The first problem was limiting arguments to the value premise of harm reduction. Harm reduction is a bit vague in terms of a value, and it provides a somewhat weak basis for a moral argument. For example, "harm reduction" is often used to say that people will inevitably make risky choices (drug use, prostitution, etc.) and we should do what we can to mitigate the potential harms associated. This aspect did not factor into my vote at all since it did not present itself in the debate. I merely bring it up to illustrate my comments about harm reduction.

This first problem allowed PRO to make pragmatic arguments such as increased tax revenue, without having to defend against any accusations of moral degeneracy. It also allowed the argument to stand that legal prostitution, if shown to be unharmful, provides a legitimate way for women to lift themselves out of poverty/homelessness/etc.

The second problem was that CON's argument focused on potential side effects of prostitution rather than prostitution itself. This allowed PRO to distinguish between legal and illegal prostitution and then associate the potential side effects with the illegal kind. PRO also argued legal prostitution may mitigate some of the side effects, which largely went unchallenged.

--Summary--
CON essentially admitted it is possible for legal prostitution to have economic benefits, assuming it is rolled out correctly. CON made no moral argument against the act of prostitution itself. I also do not believe CON made a successful case that violence and exploitation are inevitable outcomes of legal (as opposed to illegal) prostitution.

Therefore, CON's argument of harm reduction was unsuccessful and PRO's economic argument stands. PRO wins this one.
whiteflame
whiteflame Global Moderator
#1
Criterion Con Tie Pro
Winner
I'll start with the value and criterion, which are conceded. Con therefore gets to dictate what is the most valuable means of addressing harm reduction (which both sides embody with their arguments), which is reducing exploitation and violence. That really should affect the debate more than it does, and I think Con could have wielded Pro's concession more effectively since basically none of his constructive had anything to do with violence (arguably, some of them do address some exploitation), so he could have said that any points involving violence automatically win out over others.

Still, I'm focused on who best ensures harm reduction through either of these two metrics.

For Pro, that means the economic argument is out. He's not getting much from the "multicultural professional experience" or societal experimentation with MAFA, much as I love them, mainly because those aren't really linked to reduced harms. I give him credit for the health points on the benefit of having more sex, since Con's response is largely just to dismiss it as less important or argue that it's not going to be a benefit everyone gets. Those mitigate Pro's point, but not by much.

It's really on Con's arguments that there's the most back-and-forth. There's the trafficking point and violence against women.

On the first, Con struggles a lot to make this point stick. It's not so much whether I'm buying that trafficking occurs in the US should legal prostitution become a thing here, but rather whether that is significantly worse than the status quo. The Poland and Netherlands examples might have been very effective if Con had clearly articulated both a causative link between legalizing prostitution and increased trafficking and a clear link between what these countries did and what Pro is suggesting the US do. I agree with Con that these countries can be instructive, but Con has to be clear about the "how" of that, not just relate them to the US and call it a day. Nevada is a better example because it is within the US, but as Pro points out, trafficking may be more related to incidence of illegal prostitution in the US, and he even articulates a clear means by which legal prostitution could prevent it. It would be better if Pro had quantified that impact, but it's a clearer cause and effect.

On the second, Con does a better job articulating clear harms caused by being a prostitute in the US, even under the legal system in Nevada. I think the specific examples of Axtel and Demos at least show the extents to which this can play out, giving us more than just numbers of people harmed to understand the depth of those harms. The trouble is, once again, it's unclear precisely whether the violent effect gets worse under the legal system. One of those examples, Demos, directly showcases the depth of harm experienced by a woman in the illegal prostitution system. So the question becomes: what does the legal system do to substantially worsen that harm?

I think there is a fundamental assumption underlying Con's argument, which is that legalization increases the demand for prostitutes, which increases their number, which increases the number of women exploited. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Con's point, but that seems to be where he's heading with it, because I don't think he's arguing that those under a legal prostitution system are more likely to be harmed than those in an illegal prostitution system. The problem is that those assumptions about what a legal system does to the market, and what kind of pressures that places on trafficking and violence, remain unsupported in the end. And without that clear cause and effect, Con's bigger arguments end up on shaky ground.

...which leaves Pro's points. Is it weird to say I'm picking him up on health outcomes of sex? Because I kind of am. Not entirely - I can see the case for voting for him on the basis that he turned the links on Con's points - but it's not super clear that he's winning those because I'm not seeing as much causation analysis from him as I'd like. But either I'm picking him up on that, or I'm viewing Con's arguments as uncertain enough that I'm kind of forced to default to Pro's arguments. So, either way, I vote Pro.