Try to prove this foolish belief with any evidence. People only believe it because they like the idea.

When we say rapture, we mean that the taking of believers will be completely separate from the second coming.

Round 1

1 of 5

SomeDebatePerson

Con #1

Welcome. Thanks for accepting my debate.

As a Catholic, I mean not super familiar with the rapture. I will quote from the King James Bible since that is what we agreed on in the comments. I personally don’t think the King James Bible is the best translation available, but there shouldn’t be anything in it that is biased to either side in this debate, especially considering the fact that the King James Bible was made before the rapture became popular.

One of the biggest practical problems with the pre-trib rapture is history itself. The rapture was not popular before the 19th century and mainly in America. Most people were simply waiting for the Second Coming, not being taken up to heaven. Even if the rapture were true, it would not be obvious to those who read the Bible.

Do you believe the Bible is meant to be obvious?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:22-24)

Christ is warning believers about the tribulation. If believers are meant to be taken before this, it would make no sense. He says many things that are problematic for the pre-trib rapture. He says the days will be shortened for the sake of those who will be saved (the elect).

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31)

The four winds represent north, south, east, west. This means the entire world. All saved people will be gathered from the Earth and from heaven. This shows believers will still be present on Earth.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

Jesus is warning believers about the tribulation again.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

The “gathering together” will not come until the “man of sin” is revealed. St. Paul is speaking about the Antichrist coming during the tribulation.

What is the point of the tribulation if believers are taken before this?

melcharaz

Pro #2

Thanks for accepting debate!

First i want to make some distinctions and clarifications.

1: the timing of the rapture is relevant to "before the 2nd coming"

"we mean that the taking of believers will be completely separate from the second coming."

As the description says.

i will refer to second coming as millenial reign, as a caveat, many refer to the rapture AS the second coming.

i am therefore not intrested in debating or contending against pre, mid or post tribulation rapture. I recommend you do not attempt to focus debate based on pretrib, midtrib or posttrib, but focus on premillenial rapture.

2: i will use bible to define "millienal reign" or 2nd coming in this debate. and "rapture", and "day of the lord" i will use the following verses:

Rapture:

1 thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHAT IS RAPTURE

The word rapture is referenced to "caught up" 1 thessalonians 4:17

The rapture, as scripture describes is a "Moment" where the saints are to meet the Lord in the air, wether "dead" or alive. 1 corinthians 15 and 1 thessalonians 4 are cross referencable based on content and context.

Now comes the trickier part.

Is the millenial reign the day of the Lord? As often the scripture uses the term day of the Lord in more than 1 context.

THE day of the Lord

Vs

the day of the Lord

Zephaniah 1:14-18

14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

this taken in context of zephaniah refers to judgement, but to whom? and when? Zephaniah 1:1-12 seem to reference to a judgement during a specific time of israel.

In comparison, consider isaiah 13:9-17

9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

This also speaks of a specific time, but the involvement of celesital bodies indicates a greater judgement, and almost seems to contrast the specific mention of God's judgement against the medes. Often isaiah has prophecies that can be referenced to multiple times (such as days of medes, which are after isaiah) and even further (such as a typeology of millenial reign)

Similar to joel 2:1-11 1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Compare this to revelation 9:1-11

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Zechariah 14:1-11

Revelation 19:1-21

Refer to the day of the Lord and the time of millenial. Ill include them under proper headings.

Joel 2:4-5,10

Revelation 9:2,7-9

The descriptions suggest that THIS day of the Lord seems more contemporary to the returning of Jesus pre millienal reign, but is still a day of judgement.

IF INSTIGATOR DESIRES I CAN GIVE MORE EXAMPLES OF DIFFERENCES.

Now lets talk about 2nd coming ie millenial reign

MILLIENIAL REIGN

Jude 1:14-15

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zechariah 14:1-11

Revelation 19:1-21

Revelation 20:1-6

Describes the 1000 year reign

So lets compare.

Rapture is defined by a moment, where the dead and living in christ are caught up.

Day of the Lord is defined by a period of time for judgement, most of the time longer than 1 day.

Millenial reign is defined by 1000 year period of Jesus or The Lord reigning on earth.

I have character limit or id post all verses, i hope that in the next round we can properly debate the rapture vs second coming ie millenial reign.

If you disagree with characterizations, please let me know!

Round 2

2 of 5

SomeDebatePerson

Con #3

I am an ammillenialist. It looks like our very different views on eschatology will make this debate very in-depth. I will let you see what the official teaching of my Church is on this matter.

The Holy Office, on July 21, 1944 under Pope Pius XII, decreed:

“In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely” (Denzinger 2296).

First up there is no reason to believe in a millenial reign of Christ on earth. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this word” (John 18:36). Saying that Christ will establish a kingdom near the end of time makes it sound like His mission was incomplete. Jesus established His Church as the new kingdom. Other than the Book of Revelation, no book in the Bible even hints that Christ will come make to reestablish the Davidic Kingdom on earth.

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

Jesus says the kingdom is already here.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isaiah 9:7)

The kingdom of the Lord will be forever, not just 1000 years.

If the rapture is traditionally understood to be secret, why is there a loud “sound” and a “trumpet”?

The Book of Revelation is a symbolic book. Many numbers in it are used to point to something deeper. 4 represents the word, 7 represents perfection, 12 represents the people of God (tribes and Apostles), and 666 represents the beast. It is very reasonable to conclude that the 1000 years might just represent a long period of time.

As for Revelation 20:1-6, it makes much more sense to interpret this as the first coming of Christ. Satan is bound in chains, like at the cross, and is then let loose at the end of times to tempt the world with the Antichrist. The 1000 years is really just the time from the Cross to the tribulation.

I also think it is ironic to interpret the 1000 years as literal because of the insistency that everything in the Bible must be taken literally but then say the day of the Lord is not a literal day and just a long period of time. The argument that the 1000 must be an actual 1000 because it’s just what the Bible says is ridiculous.

If there is no millenial reign, then cannot be premillenialism. Only ammillenialism. The rapture is falsified.

I am still confused what you are even trying to argue for. In round 1, I tried debunking the rapture. In round 2, I tried debunking the millenial reign. The Bible doesn’t support either of these claims.

melcharaz

Pro #4

Ok! So there is already a misunderstanding. To be clear, as you described in your description, we are talking about rapture seperate of the 2nd coming, i was explaining what the 2nd coming is, i am defining biblical terms and categorizations for clarification sake.

I will however need you to make a clear definition and stance on ammillenialism, because you simply said what the 1000 years "could mean" which is necessary to affirm or prove the complete seperation of rapture vs 2nd coming ie millenial reign.

Also i will need you to affirm that all scripture is inspiried, otherwise a biblical debate is in bad faith, revelation says clearly the reign is for 1000 years.

2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 peter 1:20-21

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Onward to debate!

1 more thing to clarify

Jacob's Trouble

Jeremiah 30:6-9

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

I have told you where the word rapture comes from biblically, i have shown as the scriptures say is a moment of time.

To answer matthew 24. We must consider WHO he is talking to and WHAT question he is answering. John 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

Matthew 4:21 21And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:3-4

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Sign of his coming, so the 2nd coming.

And end of the world.

And he is talking to Galilean JEWS.

Matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 are words Jesus spoke to Jews about the time of his 2nd coming and the end of the world, the time of jacobs trouble or tribulation is referenced. Remember that the rapture is a moment. So lets see what jesus said.

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And these all refer to tribulation and abomination of desolation connected to daniel 9:21-27

daniel 11:36-45

1 thessalonians 2:2-4

(See also daniel 12:1-2)

This moment is described by the prophets and apostles

Revelation 6:12-17

Zechariah 12:10-11

Daniel 7:13-14

Acts 1:9-11

The rapture is for the saints not appointed unto wrath.

1 thessalonians 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (Refer to revelation 6:12-17 and revelation 11:18 as to wrath)

The tribulation referenced in john 16:33 is not the same tribulation mentioned in matthew 24:21, tribulation mark 13:19, distress and Wrath luke 21:22-23.

You did ask a question in your r1 i never answered.

"What is the point of the tribulation if believers are taken before this?"

Judgement. (See day of the Lord in my r1, and verses about wrath in my r2)

Round 3

3 of 5

SomeDebatePerson

Con #5

All right, so when I said “could mean,” I meant ammillenialism can clearly be a valid interpretation. My view is that ammillenialism is the best and safest interpretation.

I believe all scripture is inspired. I do not believe all scripture is literal. The context of each passage is very important. Revelation is clearly a symbolic book. Where in Revelation does it talk about a physical millenial reign? Even millenialism is based on a stretch from what the text actually says. When Jesus speaks about the end of time, He never says He is coming back to establish an earthly kingdom.

2 peter 1:20-21

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Exactly! It is not up for each individual person to decide. It is up to the Church to interpret scripture. The Bible never claimed to be easy to understand.

Let’s take a look at Paul’s Second Letter to the Thessalonians:

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3)

The day of the coming of the Lord will not come until the man of sin is revealed. This is part of the tribulation.

Let’s take a look toward the ending of chapter 2:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

St. Paul says to hold the traditions, not things you make up yourself. The rapture is not traditional. Even though millenialism was somewhat historically favored, it has been historical rejected since the time of St. Augustine. Since then, the 1000 years have been seen as symbolic. Satan was bound at the cross and will be let loose near the end of time to deceive the world with the Antichrist. This interpretation makes more sense.

Tribulation is not only for judgment. Tribulation is also a test for believers. Jesus warns us to be careful during the tribulation. If it is only for judgment, explain this:

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24:22)

The days will be shortened for the sake of the elect. Why would these days even need to be shortened in the first place if it was only punishment?

Also, you need to explain why Christ is warning us not to believer the deceivers:

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (Matthew 24:23)

melcharaz

Pro #6

Look at title of the debate

Back to me

Look at comments

Section

Back to me

I am debating by bible, i am not concerned with what your church teaches.

Look at my round 1"Zechariah 14:1-11"

Back to me

I showed scripture as to what it would look like when Jesus returns.

Look at israel, is mount of olivet split in half? Is Jesus in the temple of God? Or has reigned there for 1000 years? No?

Back to me.

Now lets talk about the rapture which is the focus.

The verses i shown are very clear as to what the rapture is and what the day of the Lord is.

The rapture is a moment of time when the Lord makes the living and dead to meet him in the sky.

The day of the Lord is him coming down. As i gave evidence in r2 and r1

The reason as to why the days are shortened is because the antichrist will be there. And he will set up mark of the beast, revelation 13:11-18 he is the abomination of desolation.

As to the binding of satan, the bible is clear

Revelation 20:1-3

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Did Jesus bind him? Find the verse where it says Jesus bound satan at the cross. There isnt one. There is a verse that he spoiled satan and put him to an open shame. But didnt bind him.

I conclude your views are unbiblical because you refuse the clear evidence mentioned in revelation claiming it is "symbolic" if it is indeed symbolic then you have some work to prove that 1: the rapture already happened

2: that satan was bound from jesus death to 1000 ad

3: that the man of sin reigned before then

4:That Jesus was in the temple of God and ruled and reigned on earth for 1000 years already.

5: all of this in context of BIBLE. You dont get to pick and choose that revelation is symbolic when Jesus himself spoke of the abomination of desolation, and the prophets before christ told us how he would return. You must accept ALL the bible and learn to discern the difference between satan=dragon vs 1000 years = 1000 years.

Again. I want bible proof or you will lose this debate by not meeting agreed upon standards in comments and interpretation by title. "By the bible"

Round 4

4 of 5

SomeDebatePerson

Con #7

“I am debating by bible, i am not concerned with what your church teaches.”

You wouldn’t have the Bible without the Church. Jesus said He would build His Church and gave the keys, but He never told anyone to write about anything.

“Look at israel, is mount of olivet split in half? Is Jesus in the temple of God? Or has reigned there for 1000 years? No?”

There is no consensus as to what the proper interpretation of Zechariah 14 is. Some see it as foretelling the destruction of the Temple. Others see it as symbolic. Plus, this chapter says it will always be 1 day, not 1000.

This, in some measure, was verified by the means of the Machabees: but is rather to be taken in a spiritual sense, as relating to the propagation of the church, and kingdom of Christ, the true Jerusalem, which alone shall never fall under the anathema of destruction, or God's curse. - Douay Rheims commentary

“The rapture is a moment of time when the Lord makes the living and dead to meet him in the sky.”

Yes, but nothing in the text indicates this is separate from the second coming.

“The reason as to why the days are shortened is because the antichrist will be there. And he will set up mark of the beast, revelation 13:11-18 he is the abomination of desolation.”

That’s not what the passage says. It says the days will be shortened for the sake of the elect. (Mt 24:22)

“Did Jesus bind him? Find the verse where it says Jesus bound satan at the cross. There isnt one. There is a verse that he spoiled satan and put him to an open shame. But didnt bind him.”

There a plenty of problems with this logic. Find one verse that says Satan being bound will happen in the future after only being “spoiled” beforehand.The reasons why the Bible doesn’t mentioning Satan being bound elsewhere is because the book of Revelation is symbolic. Satan was and will not be literally bound. Satan is not going to be in literal “chains.” The chains are mentioned to give St. John and us imagery, not to say Satan will be fully defeated in the future and only partially at the cross.

“I conclude your views are unbiblical because you refuse the clear evidence mentioned in revelation claiming it is "symbolic" if it is indeed symbolic then you have some work to prove that 1: the rapture already happened

2: that satan was bound from jesus death to 1000 ad

3: that the man of sin reigned before then

4:That Jesus was in the temple of God and ruled and reigned on earth for 1000 years already.”

The rapture is part of the second coming.
The 1000 years represents the reign of Christianity.
It is not the end times yet
Jesus is not coming back to reign on earth. He said His Kingdom is not of this world and never spoke of establishing an earthly kingdom.

“all of this in context of BIBLE. You dont get to pick and choose that revelation is symbolic when Jesus himself spoke of the abomination of desolation, and the prophets before christ told us how he would return. You must accept ALL the bible and learn to discern the difference between satan=dragon vs 1000 years = 1000 years.”

Not to make any assumptions about your beliefs, but you likely pick and choose what you want to believe and what you see as symbolic. The Eucharist is a great example of people refuses to accept what the Bible actually says. You have no church that can infallibly interpret the Bible. You rely on yourself and hope you’re right. St. Peter said “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).

melcharaz

Pro #8

Here we are at r4. There are 2 consistent problems with the theology of my opponent which makes him incapable of answering when the rapture shall be.

I have shown by scripture that the rapture is before the day of the Lord, because scripture tells us that the saints arent appointed to wrath, and the day of the Lord is appointed by scripture as the wrath of God against the ungodly. Jude 14-16

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

My opponenet has to say bible is symbolic when it does not favor his arguement, he cannot use all of scripture to prove the context and interpretation of scripture, he follows the catholic doctrine. The catholic doctrine is not dictated by the word of God, but by the ecclesia, the church..men who follow God.

I therefore conclude there is no further need for me to attempt to reason with him. I will allow those who read scripture to determine what is the rapture, and how the bible proves that it is correct.

The 5 proofs i asked him to prove, he did not use 1 bible verse to support them, because he cant.

Because there is no bible to support them.

In the next round i may attempt to answer any questions. Or i may leave it blank, depends on what he says.

I cannot add much because i use the bible for basis in my arguements, and all he does is cherry pick the verses he agrees with, and misunderstands the rest.

That being said. I reaffirm the rapture being before the "second coming" because the bible says that we arent appointed unto wrath. (See my r2 The rapture is for the saints not appointed unto wrath. )

When he has bible to contridict this statement, then will i continue.

Round 5

5 of 5

SomeDebatePerson

Con #9

My opponent still chooses to believe based on personal interpretation.

“I have shown by scripture that the rapture is before the day of the Lord, because scripture tells us that the saints arent appointed to wrath, and the day of the Lord is appointed by scripture as the wrath of God against the ungodly. Jude 14-16”

Well, there are problems with your logic. I agree that the saints are not appointed to wrath, but what does this have to do with the rapture taking saints before the tribulation?

My opponent has still not answered my reasons why the tribulation is also a test for believers.

“My opponenet has to say bible is symbolic when it does not favor his arguement, he cannot use all of scripture to prove the context and interpretation of scripture, he follows the catholic doctrine. The catholic doctrine is not dictated by the word of God, but by the ecclesia, the church..men who follow God.”

Actually, you do this more. This sounds like the definition of Protestantism. Protestants make the Church and the Eucharist spiritualized. Your interpretation of scripture is not the word of God but your own mind. How do you know your interpretation is correct without the Holy Spirit to guide you?

“I therefore conclude there is no further need for me to attempt to reason with him. I will allow those who read scripture to determine what is the rapture, and how the bible proves that it is correct.”

Sounds even more like Protestantism. There is no reason to argue with you since you believe your personal, fallible, unguided interpretation is correct.

Here are some verses that support the Church and that the Bible by itself cannot stand as the sole rule:

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

St. Peter says St. Paul’s epistles are not easy and understand and can be twisted unto their own destruction. This is what has become of Protestantism with no authority.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)

Prophecies of scripture are not up to private interpretation. If you try to interpret this verse in a way to remain compatible with your understanding of how interpreting scripture works, you are still relying on your own personal interpretation.

[I]f he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Matthew 18:17)

Since you won’t listen to the Church, you are part of your own personal church.

“That being said. I reaffirm the rapture being before the "second coming" because the bible says that we arent appointed unto wrath.”

This is my opponent’s final argument listed to believe the rapture is before the second coming. This has nothing to do with it being separate. My opponent has still not answered by questions about the tribulation being a test. For those who will be saved, the tribulation is not about wrath but a chance to show God we truly love Him.

This debate seemed to end up not being about the rapture at all. My opponent kept switching from the rapture to the millennial reign and then accuses me of not accepting the Bible.

melcharaz

Pro #10

I have given verses from scripture that tell us what the wrath of God is, in context of 2nd coming, the bible makes it clear that the tribulation or wrath of God is not for the saints. The saints are commanded

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The saints are called to make themselves ready as the bride of christ.

But to escape these things requires effort on our part to keep ourselves ready.

1 john 3:1-3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

But that day isnt to come upon us if we are in christ.

1 thessalonians 5:1-2, 4-9 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

My opponent agrees that we are not called to wrath.

"I agree that the saints are not appointed to wrath,"

He does not understand the timing of the wrath in conjunction to the 2nd coming.

I pray those who have read this debate will understand by scripture what the day of the Lord is, what the rapture is, and that there is a need for all of us to be ready, else we will miss the rapture and may have to endure the tribulation.

Let us escape the wrath God has purposed against the world and the 7 years, and let us be sober and purify ourselves that we may be counted worthy.

melcharaz

#19

--> @GreatfulGoy

I understood what you meant. I try to use words instigator and contender, it helps me.

GreatfulGoy

#18

--> @GreatfulGoy

I meant vote Pro*

I can barely see myself voting Pro unless its very onesided.

I know Con's side is objectively correct.

whiteflame Global Moderator

#17

--> @melcharaz

It's the one I have the most experience with, so yeah.

melcharaz

#16

--> @whiteflame

Let me guess... was it chatgtp?

whiteflame Global Moderator

#15

--> @melcharaz

I tried using it, which helped a bit.

melcharaz

#14

--> @whiteflame

Thanks for vote.

By the way, did you have to use ai to summarize?

I probably should have summarized verses more than quoted them.

Would have made it more readable.

melcharaz

#13

Yall can use ai to summarize my arguements if it helps.

melcharaz

#12

No one else is volunteering. Basically i argued that saints avoid wrath, and rapture is before wrath.

whiteflame Global Moderator

#11

I... might be out of my depth here. If you can absolutely get no one else, I'll see what I can do, but I guarantee my RFD's just going to be a mess.

GreatfulGoy

#10

--> @melcharaz

I am fully biased towards Con especially as I have decent Old Testament knowledge.

I will voye hut U dint think Ilk be avke ti vote Connunless it was very onesided.

So, I would rather not vote.

whiteflame Global Moderator

--> @melcharaz

I’ll try to get to this.

melcharaz

--> @fauxlaw, @GreatfulGoy, @Kohai, @Ragnar, @whiteflame

Any of yall wanna vote on this? Im curious on yall's opinion.
Got 5 days left.

melcharaz

--> @SomeDebatePerson

Prove it in the debate.

SomeDebatePerson

--> @melcharaz

Not all scripture is symbolic. The millennium is symbolic. The rapture is a misunderstanding of what the scriptures actually say.

melcharaz

He literally could have won in r1 if he just said "all scripture is symbolic and i define rapture to not exist"

But instead he says it in r2 and r3

melcharaz

Anyone who attempted to vote instigator because i fussed at him about symbolism of scripture. In comments i said "opening statement" not round 3 or 4

He put forth no views of scripture, or definitions in his #1 or opening statement.
Otherwise i couldnt say "definitions are debatable"

Basically defintions and biblical views are fair game to contridict cause he didnt say.

melcharaz

--> @SomeDebatePerson

Im like faux when it comes to definitions and stuff.

I will follow these 3 rules in my arguements.

1: kjv bible only, no outside sources, no commentaries, no lexicons to define words, i may use bible hub for clarity in scripture, but it is assumed the definitions are debatable.

2: i will use multiple scriptures to affirm/defend concept of rapture AS IT IS IN CONTEXT OF KJV BIBLE, NEW AND OLD TESTAMENT.

3: The definitions you set forth in opening statement i will agree with, the perimeters of how to interpret scripture, or what lens you read the bible (is it inerrant, historical, metaphorical) i leave to you to determine in your opening statement, and i will abide by any rules you set forth in your opening statement as long as it doesnt violate 1 and 2.

SomeDebatePerson

Good, I was thinking about deleting this one because no one seemed interested.

melcharaz

Sure. I might be slow, but ill show how the rapture is supported in the bible using exegesis, hermaneutics and linguistically!

whiteflame Global Moderator

Criterion	Con	Tie	Pro
Winner

Reason:

I won't pretend I understand the points of contention as well as I should to be able to vote on this. I'm still wrapping my head around some of these concepts and I'm not really getting anywhere trying, so I'm going to put together what I have and see how it pans out.

I think Pro does enough with his quotes from Thessalonians and Corinthians to establish that the rapture is a thing and that it exists in the Bible. Con points out that certain interpretations of that are more recent and may comport better with current views of what the rapture is, but existing teachings being distinct don't tell me that it doesn't exist at all in any similar form in the biblical text. So really, the main point of discussion here is when it takes place and whether that is pre-tribulation.

And this is where all my thoughts become a mess. Pro establishes that certain key framing about judgement and appointment in wrath are distinct from the rapture. Con points to other text that indicates that it the rapture takes place after tribulation. I think Con's right that we have to do some interpretation and shouldn't necessarily follow all texts literally, but it's harder for him to establish why specific pieces of text - like the 1000 years - are specifically meant not to be taken literally. It seems like there's some contradictory evidence regarding the precise timing of revelation, and it's hard to know which pieces of evidence take precedence when it's all just laid out like this.

Still, I have to decide this somehow and I think Pro's case is more internally consistent. He's got a clear connection between the quotes he uses about the specific timing of the rapture and the nature of the rapture that he's presenting, whereas Con seems to be trying to frame what Pro believes to be the rapture and using that as a basis for placing it later. Since Pro's pieces line up better, that's where I vote.

Is the rapture supported by the Bible?

Round 1

"we mean that the taking of believers will be completely separate from the second coming."

Rapture:

The word rapture is referenced to "caught up" 1 thessalonians 4:17

THE day of the Lord

Vs

the day of the Lord

MILLIENIAL REIGN

Round 2

Round 3

Round 4

Round 5

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