(assuming christianity is true) confessional lutheranism is the truest expression of christianity

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I would like to begin the debate by exposing some horrifying facts you won't believe at first about the cultures that shifted to Lutheranism andeven Luth vs Cath disparity in pre-Nazi Germany and some other things. These will be a series of image, they are designed for 'shock factor' but all are valid.

^ note that this only isn't worse because immigrants havehelped soften the blow. Open it in a new tab to see it bigger.

That was 2019 and was broad, 'irreligious'.

This is 2021 and is specific to atheism:

You're not going to believe that map most likely.

Let's just show you the data so you realise it's not a hoax...

The Catholic Church, led by Popes Pius XI (1922 to 1939) and Pius XII (1939 to 1958), confronted National Socialism from the rise of the Nazi Party through the Second World War. In the early 1930s, about one third of the German population was Catholic, and Catholic regions generally gave the Nazi Party lower electoral support than the national average.[1] Although the Catholic-aligned Centre Party voted for the Enabling Act of 1933,[2] the Church hierarchy and many Catholic leaders had criticized National Socialism since the 1920s, and numerous bishops issued formal condemnations of Nazi ideology.[3]

The 1933 Reichskonkordat formally guaranteed Catholic rights, but the regime soon restricted Catholic institutions, closed schools and organizations, and targeted clergy and lay leaders, including those killed during the Night of the Long Knives. Pius XI's 1937 encyclical Mit brennender Sorge accused the government of violating the concordat and promoting hostility towards the Church. Persecution intensified in annexed and occupied territories during the war, particularly in Poland, Slovenia, and Austria, where many clergy were imprisoned or killed. Thousands of priests were held at Dachau, where more than 1,000 died.

Catholic responses to Nazism varied. Some clergy and laypeople resisted, while others remained passive. The Vatican used diplomatic channels to assist victims and advocate for peace, and Vatican Radio and other Catholic media outlets condemned Nazi atrocities. Historian Alan Bullock argued that the Church did not feel it was "possible to take up an attitude of open opposition to the regime", while Mary Fulbrook wrote that Christian belief often "proved compatible with at least passive acquiescence in, if not active support for, the Nazi dictatorship".[4][5]

Catholics also played significant roles in rescuing Jews in several occupied countries by providing false documents, shelter, and diplomatic assistance.[6][7] Pius XII's wartime actions remain debated, although he condemned racial persecution in public statements such as Summi Pontificatus and his 1942 Christmas Address. After the war, some individual clergy aided fleeing Nazis without institutional sanction, and the Vatican later acted to remove those involved.[8]

wikipedia.org

Just something to consider. I'll leave it there for now.

We will now explore what the debate actually is about.

0 of this debate is to be about if Christianity is true. 0 of this debate should be about which denomination is correct about Christianity. The entire debate is about the expression of Christianity as per being part of that denomination (or in the case of Catholics and Orthodox more so Sect but Liturgical Rites exist within those that differ a lot in expression making this an interesting debate).

It would be heretical of me to say Roman Catholicism is 'superior' as an expression of Christianity over the other wonderful cultural Rites in the Sect. However, I have room to say it is the truest and that the others flavour it more to their culture and that's totally fine but that's an expression of their culture more than of Christianity.

Expression

an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (such as words) : utterance

Christianity

the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.

I am rushed, though I actually debated privately with this guy for a long time on the topic.

The 'expression' part is very key. Lutheranism has female priests, lgbtq clergy and even has mandated that the church marries homosexuals

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/new-danish-law-lets-homosexuals-wed-in-church-idUSBRE8570UU/

The Confessional Lutherans are merely the closest Lutheran denomination to Catholicism out of Lutheran denominations. This is why they're the least non-Christian in expression.

What my opponent forgets is that confession and every single facet including Eucharist and even the way Lutheran Priest dress all come from Catholicism and tweaking it.

Lutherans, confessional or not, do not 'express' Christianity in a way that is superior to Catholics. They don't even think that what you do is done by your own will and earns you Heaven with God. They think believing in Jesus hard enough autopilots you to succeed as a Christian.

I will paste from AI:

Verses Often Cited Regarding Works and Salvation:

James 2:14-26: Highlights that faith without works is dead and that Abraham was "justified by works" when he offered Isaac.

Matthew 7:21-23: Jesus states that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom, but only those who "do the will of my Father".

Revelation 20:12-13 & 22:12: Describes judgment based on what is written in books, according to deeds.

Philippians 2:12: Instructs believers to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

John 15:1-6: Jesus talks about branches (believers) that must bear fruit or be cut off and burned.

Galatians 5:6: Mentions that what matters is "faith working through love". 

Pasted from Google's AI.

Lutherans that are confessional have no actual parts of them which are valid Christianity that are not directly carried over and/or plagiarised from the Catholics. Every part of them which isn't Catholics quite often is the problem.

Their 'confessions' are false as they don't promise absolute secrecy with the seal that Catholics promise and their clergy are, in brutal honesty, cosplaying as what they claim to be. You see, to be a truly valid clergy member means that someone from the apostolic succession line as a Bishop or equivalent rank, promoted you to it and validates you as it. The Confessional Lutherans are actually inferior to the Orthodox since Orthodox believe works matter and have Apostolic succession lines they can claim make their clergy valid.

It also is confusing why Lutherans even believe in the Eucharist mattering since to go to Church and take it is a work in itself, as it baptism and as is confessing. If they believe in the sola fide concept that Luther rooted his heresy in, they'd believe faith in Jesus alone saves. They'd believe that faith in him would automatically with Holy Spirit working in you, give you the sufficient knowledge to know (without being taught by their catechesis etc) that you had to take Eucharist and they'd also therefore believe you could validly and should validly go to any Protestant church at all and take it. In fact since anyone at all can be valid clergy, you can make a bread, bless it and take it yourself. Yet they know they're wrong.

I admit I may have lost this debate (ironically largely in part due to talking to my opponent to push him to convert, in private plus irl stuff holding me back the first 2 Rounds).

What I know for sure is that this user's case does not seem to be presenting to you what the 'truest expression' of Christianity is. On the other hand, he is fixated on 'free will' aspects but that is not expression.

Let it be noted that the proposition states "truest expression" as in which version of christianity is the most true.

Here Pro makes up a definition of 'expression' that doesn't even exist. His definition of expression is never revealed in the debate. He seems to think the debate is on which denomination's doctrine is the 'truest' but that would not necessarily be the one that is the truest expression.

Expression, as defined by myself in Round 2, is:

an act, process, or instance of representing in a medium (such as words) : utterance

The Confessional Lutheran doctrine as a whole decides to mimic Catholicism in part. It derives its practises from a heretical Catholic hybrid monk and priest named Martin Luther. All of the reasons that it is a true expression of Christianity, in part, are due to bringing over what the Catholics did and imitating them. The issue is that in Lutheran doctrine, works don't matter. It claims faith and scripture alone are the keys to salvation as well as God's grace.

In stark contrast, Catholicism claims works matter very much on the path to salvation.

Catholicism does not claim we earn Heaven by works, first of all:

Following the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church held an ecumenical council in the Italian city of Trent to deal with the theological questions that were being debated. The Council of Trent issued the Decree on Justification (DJ), which set forth the Catholic position on the subject.

In the heat of the times, Protestant leaders painted the Council of Trent as a great villain that simply reiterated the Church’s false teachings and its false gospel. That characterization is still found today in a lot of Protestant literature on the subject.

But if you read what Trent says, you find it actually denies much of what is attributed to it. This is the case with the idea that we need to earn our place before God by doing works—particularly at the beginning of the Christian life when we are first justified.

According to Trent, “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’” (DJ 8, quoting Rom. 11:6).

When we come to God and are justified, it happens without any merit on our part. Neither our faith nor our works—nor anything else—merits justification. Trent thus denies the very thing our Protestant brethren fear it asserts—and that we lead them to believe if we tell them simply that we believe in “justification by faith and works.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

Instead, it insists works are an essential component of the journey. Remember even under Protestant theology, demons and Satan believe in God and almost all of them know the reality of Trinity. Regardless, they are damned. Sola Fide (salavation by faith alone) is a hoax.

Canon 9 from Trent’s Decree on Justification states: “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so that he understands that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.”

This is widely misunderstood.

One reason is that the term anathema is often glossed in Protestant circles to mean something like “damned by God,” and the canon is represented as condemning Protestants to hell.

It isn’t. At that time in history, the term anathema referred to a form of excommunication that could be imposed by a Church court for certain serious offenses. It was performed with a special ceremony, and its purpose was to motivate people to repent. When they did repent, it was also lifted with a special ceremony. It was seldom imposed and was eventually abolished.

The anathema did not sentence people to hell, it did not take effect automatically, it was never applied to all Protestants as a group, and it doesn’t apply to anyone today. The use of the term does, though, imply an authoritative rejection of the “faith alone” formula—when it is used to mean a specific thing.

The canon doesn’t say, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, let him be anathema.” Instead, it rejects a particular use of the formula, whereby someone “understands that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will.”

Trent is therefore concerned to reject “faith alone” when it’s used to say that you don’t need to in any way cooperate with God’s grace, that a merely intellectual faith would save you.

And that’s correct. Merely agreeing with the truths of the theology is not enough to be saved. As James puts it: “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder” (James 2:17).

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

The Bible is explicit on this. You need to put in actions that are righteous and work with your faith in Jesus, to end up saved. You do not just believe hard enough and autopilot to salvation. That was not taught in the Bible.